Ratings vs Liverpool

[Bus-Conductor]

Completely agree and had similar sentiments in my ratings. On further thought he possibly was not bad with the ball and under Liverpools intense press and his ability to get out of tight spots. But defensively he left us so exposed down our left along with Son to a point that in the second half Poch switched Dembele to right of the CM2 with Wanyama to provide more protection down that flank.

There was a 3-4 game window in Poch's first season when we played a midfield 2 of Mason and Bentaleb with Dembele in front and it resulted in some of the best football we have played under Poch. It had its flaws defensively, but Mason and Bentaleb's ability to move the ball quickly along with Dembele's hold up play meant we had long periods pegging the opposition back in their 3rd. It was abandoned to play a trio of Townsend, Chadli and Eriksen for some reason.

Would love something similar with a Winks, Wanyama, Dembele trio with Winks sitting deeper back on the table...just as an option. Yesterday for example we might have benefitted more going direct and utilising Dembele and Kane's strength on the ball to try and get some sort of territory.

Very good post.

Still probably my favourite game under Poch was the Arsenal home 2-1 win in that phase (which was also followed next game by another damn fine performance away to Liverpool which we were very unlucky to lose 2-3).

 

[HW61]

The performance level over the last 2/3 weeks makes me question the benefits of the Barcelona break. The team seems to have lost their edge, sharpness and natural balance and rhythm. They seem heavy footed to me. That seems to have been a poor decision.

In theory it should work. But so much was off yesterday.

 

[Bulletspur]

I agree with some of what you say but what I think you have to at least consider is that Pochettino probably felt our players were good enough to impose our game on them, he probably doesn't think it now but he probably felt it when he set the team up.

Yes Wolves, Hull and Swansea beat them playing a certain way but our squad is considered quite a bit better than those and so in theory at least should have a few more ways to play given our quality.

Had we changed to to a counter attaching side an got beat people would have said why is Pochettino setting his side up to play like Wolves when they have all that quality.

Formation may not have helped but the players didn't want it enough, you could see that in 50/50’s and all sorts.

No, he isn't getting away that easy. Poch's stubbornness or lack of any other ways to counter Liverpool cost us the game. We could have used the same players but with a different approach, and even if we had lost, would not have been the embarrassment as it was yesterday.

But surely one is a consequence of the other. Kane misses his fair share, Janssen needs the opportunity to do the same, something that he's not likely to get, therefore what type of player could we get who could do the things we want from a "fulcrum" type striker, the graft and unselfish work etc and be prolific ?

I don't expect Janssen to be a prolific goal machine given the circumstances, right now I'd settle for having someone up there who's just doing the other stuff well, which Kane hasn't for big chunks of the season.

I dont agree with you often but on this you are spot on in my opinion

 

[bat-chain]

You don't want Pochettino to get away with it easy which is great.

I don't want the players to get away with it easy.

It's two sides of the same coin for me, Pochettino's tactics may have been poor but does that give the players a free pass to make basic mistakes and lack desire.

Wanyama is dispossessed for the first goal, now maybe you are right and the tactics didn't help him but that doesn't change the fact I've seen him control balls like that far better plenty of times, he fell beneath his own standard.

Equally Toby steps up but doesn't win possession because he is not aggressive enough or quick enough into the tackle, again I've seen him win that tackle before or not step up, we know he can do far better because we've all seen him do it.

Dier has the option to do better for the second goal because we've all seen him sort his feet out quicker than that, he has the option to clear it into touch if he can't sort his feet out, he doesn't do it, but again we all know he can. I could find countless examples of him successfully launching a ball into touch under pressure.

Son's chance at 2-0, it wasn't tactics that made him fluff that or not square it to Kane it was his own choice. Equally Eriksen's free kick, we know he can do better because we have seen it.

There was nothing impressive about Pochettino's tactics, but there was nothing impressive from the players either.

Results in football will always be a combination of tactics and player choices and actions made totally independently.

 

[DiamondLites]

One bad performance and I've seen people wanting to sign Demari Grey and Andre Grey. Good grief

 

[southlondonyiddo]

One bad performance and I've seen people wanting to sign Demari Grey and Andre Grey. Good grief

'Gray'

And both those players would give us far more than we currently have coming off our bench

 

[SUIYHA]

So many things wrong with the game today that I don't think it's fair to blame any one thing.

Lloris - 7
Walker - 4
Alderweireld - 5
Dier - 3
Davies - 3
Wanyama - 2
Dembele - 5
Eriksen - 5
Alli - 1
Son - 0
Kane - 5 - Only because he hardly saw the ball so didn't have many opportunities to fuck up

Subs:
Winks - 6
Sissoko - 4
Janssen - N/A

Poch - 3 - I cannot get my head around playing such a high line and having no extra protection for Davies against Mane. It was obvious how Liverpool were going to score. He obviously had words at half time as the second half was far better, but what annoyed me was that he took the wrong players off. Dembele and Eriksen hadn't been great but Alli and Son were absolutely shocking yet they played 90 and 82 minutes respectively.

I just don't get how so many players and the manager can have such an off day at the same time. For such a big game too. Did they overestimate Liverpool? I'm not sure but that first half was like the late 90s all over again. Unacceptable.

 

[dannythomas]

you are being tongue in cheek but you are right - another manager would have parked the bus. Mourinho for example would have set up to defend and taken the point. Poch just isnt willing to do that yet. He always talks about being brave and thats what he is trying to teach the squad. Mind you, Im not complaining.

Absolutely. If we had chosen a defensive team and lost 1-0 everybody on here would be saying how lacking ambition we are , how we bottled it and just went for a draw, if we had title ambitions we would have gone for it, etc etc. We are not West Brom or Middlesbrough and parking the bus is not our style.

 

[SUIYHA]

Absolutely. If we had chosen a defensive team and lost 1-0 everybody on here would be saying how lacking ambition we are , how we bottled it and just went for a draw, if we had title ambitions we would have gone for it, etc etc. We are not West Brom or Middlesbrough and parking the bus is not our style.

There's nothing wrong with having a game plan for the bigger games that's different to the way you play the smaller ones. Mourinho isn't the only manager that does that. How many times did we watch Ferguson beat Wenger using the exact same game plan of sitting back, letting Arsenal have all the possession, frustrate them in front of goal then hit them on the break when they let their guard down and let all the Arsenal fans complain that they'd deserved to win the game even though the exact same methodology was beating them time and time again.

If you're Guardiola's Barcelona then you can play the same tactics every week. Otherwise you need to adapt for certain games. I absolutely insist upon Spurs being good to watch as the single most important KPI for any manager, but a good defensive performance to grind out a result in a big away game that you can't really afford to lose against a rival is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Singayid]

Content was a possibility but style!?????

 

[Singayid]

Sissoko and Janssen between them had as much effect as a 2 inch cock on a Scouse council estate mum of 6.
.

Fucking classic!!!!

 

[kungfugrip]

Liverpool now have 16 days until their next game. We have four games in that amount of time!!

 

[guiltyparty]

Liverpool now have 16 days until their next game. We have four games in that amount of time!!

BUT... saw this on the Guardian and liked the optimism:

"GShelton: Record against top 6 - posting this because there's a narrative being built that Spurs are crap against the top 6.

1) Liverpool = 7 games played: (3 home 4 away): 13 from 21pts W3 D4 L0
2) Chelsea = 8 games played (5 home 3 away): 13pts from 24pts W4 D1 L3
3) Spurs = 8 games played (3 home 5 away): 9pts from 24 W2 D3 L3
4) City = 6 games played: (3 home 3 away): 7pts from 18pts W2 D1 L3
5) Utd = 6 games played (4 home 2 away): 6pts from 18pts W1 D3 L2
6) Woolwich = 6 games played (3 home 3 away): 5pts from 18pts W1 D2 L3

Out of all of the top 6 Spurs and Chelsea have only 2 games to play, both of Spurs are at home where they are unbeaten this season (inc against the top 6). 1 of Chelsea'sremaining games is away from home where they have only won 1 game away from home against top 6!

One thing is for sure Spurs have had the hardest set of fixtures out of the top 6 having played the joint most games (same as amount as Chelsea) but the most away fixtures. City haven't won away, Woolwich haven't won away, Utd haven't won away, yet all of them have more to play. I have yet to hear anyone talk about how shit their away record against the top 6 is.

Also these are Spurs next run of games:

Stoke (H)
Everton (H)
Palace (A)
Soton (H)
Burnley (A)
Swansea (A)
Watford (H)
Bournemouth (H)
Leicester (A)

Whilst Spurs play the above all of the other top 6 play each other during that time:

Liverpool v. Woolwich
Woolwich v. City
City v. Liverpool
Chelsea v. City
United v. Chelsea

Points will be dropped."

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Sissoko and Janssen between them had as much effect as a 2 inch cock on a Scouse council estate mum of 6.

How very disturbing. I'd love to know where you got your figures from regarding the size of a scouse council estate mums minge as opposed to the minge of a scouse mum in private housing, although I suspect the 6 kids has something to with your view that a council estate mum has a minge like a bill posters paste bucket

Perhaps a country wide survey is in order?

 

[Ionman34]

The repetition of ManC's errors is what I find really disappointing. I think Poch thought the weakness in both teams was their CB's and decided the solution was to effectively push two players up top in both games and try and press their CB's, the problem was in both games he applied the tactics poorly, and ignored what happens everywhere else on the pitch.

Look at this positional heat map:

View attachment 28460



This was what I noticed in game, Kane, Son and Alli spent far two much time bumbling about in the same part of the pitch, their CB's were always left with easy out balls as their full backs, especially Clyne, had acres of space. Because of the poor set up and pressing of our front players, Wanyama and Dembele were getting pulled all over the place and as a result their 3cm's were able to pass through us like knives through butter.

I think it wouldn't have been so bad if Poch actually hadn't changed from his orthodox 4231 with the ARM and ALM's detailed to help out their FB's and all three AM's detailed to drop back and help the outnumbered CM's. But for some inexplicable reason Poch went full ManC, played 2 (and at times almost 3) up front, very narrow and this was compounded by none of them pressing cohesively, coherently and with gusto. It was a tactical horror show.

Spot on.

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been posted. Poch blew it with the starting formation and compounded the error by not rectifying it as soon as it became apparent that we were second best all over the park. His objective then should have been to solidify, frustrate and counter, then look to impose our game when they started running out of ideas.

I don't know if it is a pride thing, but it was naive in the extreme to expect us to wrestle control back when we were once again reacting to situations almost constantly.

In games like this, we need to be pragmatic in the first half. Swansea showed the perfect example against City, first half was all about prevention, second half about controlled intent and they were unlucky to not get a result from that game. Had we shown the same intent against Liverpool I'm sure we'd have gotten a point at the very least.

 

[archiewasking]

Fucking classic!!!!

Me and the wife actually live in Peterborough, thanks very much.

 

[double0]

One of our problems when facing teams that can match us and even suppress us is we need to learn how to adapt much more quickly imo and play counter attacking football (Nottingham Forest), i personally haven't seen enough of this style. We can continue to be naive and wrestle for possession however in game flexibility is the holy grail during 90 minutes we need to get to a level when we can interchange between styles. I believe Poch realises this but also the players need to be much more mentally adaptable and game smart.
Losing is part of the game, considering the run we've been on but it was just typical we'd lose this game, to see us take that step up has been in front of us before but we also seem to find ways to stumble.

 

[Shea]

I think the main difference was Mane on the day

Yes they out pressed us in general too (although a Mane was also a big part of that)

It was his outlet, with his high pace high energy running that had us rocking the whole time while whenever we had the ball there was very little in terms of a forward out ball for our players which forced us to delay the pass and make it easier for their pressing

If the summer window had been them being fooled in to buying Sissoko due to his great form at the Euros and us being clear to sign Mane then I firmly believe it would have been us tearing them to shreds instead

A fine margin but one that really highlights what we are missing right now

 

[southlondonyiddo]

I think the main difference was Mane on the day

Yes they out pressed us in general too (although a Mane was also a big part of that)

It was his outlet, with his high pace high energy running that had us rocking the whole time while whenever we had the ball there was very little in terms of a forward out ball for our players which forced us to delay the pass and make it easier for their pressing

If the summer window had been them being fooled in to buying Sissoko due to his great form at the Euros and us being clear to sign Mane then I firmly believe it would have been us tearing them to shreds instead

A fine margin but one that really highlights what we are missing right now

Mane was the difference but we gave Liverpool and especially him the freedom of the park to expose us time and time again

 

[Shea]

Mane was the difference but we gave Liverpool and especially him the freedom of the park to expose us time and time again

Yea but I feel without Mane's running to pin us back and expose those gaps, and hypothectially if we had him running at them creating an option for an easy through ball in to space that he would make dangerous things would have been very different

They'd be the team without an obvious pass forward who we could press and force mistakes from and we'd be the team with a dangerous willing runner we could quickly knock the ball in to space for and let him terrorise their defence

I honestly think that one quality player of his type difference made us look like kids against them as men (you only have to look at how they've performed without him against the likes of Swansea to feel there may be truth in this opinion)