Match Ratings Ratings vs West Ham

[guiltyparty]

I never said he had a great game. I said he put in a fucking shift.

But, whatever, he's not getting dropped because he's doing his job as far as Poch is concerned. It's like the fucking idiots calling for Eriksen to be dropped at the start of last season because he wasn't getting goals and assists. Poh's gameplan is so much more than those stats. It's about being in the right positions and constantly working for the team. Dele did that today and that's why I disagreed with BC's assessment because it's simply not true.

The moment Dele stops doing his job "off the ball" is the moment Poch drops him. But if you want to drive the kid out of the club by baseless accusations of laziness go right ahead. It'll be brilliant for Spurs watching him at Bayern/Barca or wherever won't it?

Putting in a shift is the least I expect of anyone.

I don't want him dropped. I totally get why he keeps him in there, he's the new Gus Poyet - don't notice him for most of the game then - bang! - goal. Again with the patronising arrogance, like no one else can see what you see. It's very, very obvious what Alli brings to the team, it's really not rocket science.

However, that and BC's assessment are not mutually exclusive. As when he's not popping up and scoring, he basically fucks about and is often a waste of a jersey. If you want to ignore that, cool; if that doesn't bother you, cool; but don't get all climate-change denier on me and pretend it doesn't fucking happen.

And I'm pretty sure Dele doesn't read my or your comments, you give us both far too much credit. He'll be off to a bigger club regardless of what we have to say on the matter just as soon as he likes. The idea that what either of us says will accelerate or decelerate that is frankly hilarious.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Alli is a fucking starter and anyone who wants him dropped is fucking mad. Yeah he fucks around sometimes but when u need a goal who better are we gonna bring on?

son.

 

[guiltyparty]

FFS - it's not that Dele can do no wrong. I've often criticised him.

But he's not getting dropped because he's not playing that badly. But he might if people like you get on his fucking back a little more.

When have I once said he should be dropped? I just pointed out we have been just as effective, if not more so, with Son in instead of him. So the idea that he is irreplaceable is nonsense.

And when did you sign on to be his own personal bodyguard? When players become above criticism, man.

 

[tiger666]

TBF his pass to Kane for his goal was poor, it made it hard for Harry to score as he had to do a diving header, which he did convert fortunately

Not really my point tbh. He got two assists and worked hard, yet is criticised for being lazy and over-hitting an assist. It's desperation.

 

[guiltyparty]

He's basically this millennium's David Platt or Gus Poyet.

That's exactly what he is. Which is why I cringe when some of our fans compare him to the likes of Neymar

 

[Phomesy]

Putting in a shift is the least I expect of anyone.

I don't want him dropped. I totally get why he keeps him in there, he's the new Gus Poyet - don't notice him for most of the game then - bang! - goal. Again with the patronising arrogance, like no one else can see what you see. It's very, very obvious what Alli brings to the team, it's really not rocket science.

However, that and BC's assessment are not mutually exclusive. As when he's not popping up and scoring, he basically fucks about and is often a waste of a jersey. If you want to ignore that, cool; if that doesn't bother you, cool; but don't get all climate-change denier on me and pretend it doesn't fucking happen.

And I'm pretty sure Dele doesn't read my or your comments, you give us both far too much credit. He'll be off to a bigger club regardless of what we have to say on the matter just as soon as he likes. The idea that what either of us says will accelerate or decelerate that is frankly hilarious.

But BC's post which I was responding to - which you found "patronising" - both flat out accused Dele of being lazy AND called for him to be dropped. That is why I made the reply I did.

And I agree that often Dele can be useless for 80 and great for 10 where he gets the goal or assist. I disagree that he was that today. He ran the West Ham defence into the ground. Had no space whatsoever for 30 minutes and barely got a touch but he kept on going. And was there - yet again - at crucial moments. He also made numerous runs that weren't rewarded - but didn't get all petulant and shit.

So I'm not "ignoring it" I'm just saying that shit didn't happen with him today. Watch the game again. He's constantly on the move. Constantly pressing. Constantly doing his job. In fact he was so fucking good at his job we're all pissed off because he didn't finish his own hard work.

That's why the reaction to his game today is insane. And wrong. And it's embarrassing. He put in a shift today and was professional and was involved in two goals that got us the win. We shouldn't be shitting on him. It's poor poor form.

 

[danielneeds]

That's exactly what he is. Which is why I cringe when some of our fans compare him to the likes of Neymar

Haha, you're nuts. The guy is barely 21 and smashing up the league. He can be anything he wants.

 

[felmani26]

It was testament to Kane that he turned the delivery into a goal because it was fizzed at him head height whereas playing the percentages it was surely easier to pull it back ground level - that's essentially what myself and others are alluding to.

The stats will say two assists but you judge that game for 90mins and the good opportunities squandered by Alli either by looking so bloody uncomfortable on the ball, stupid flicks or simply being careless running into defenders.

This is a player who's status is now recognised worldwide so scrutiny has to match. He is a bona-fide talent with a knack of getting on the end of things but some of what he's serving in the heat of battle is sub-standard garbage.

 

[Spurger King]

It was testament to Kane that he turned the delivery into a goal because it was fizzed at him head height whereas playing the percentages it was surely easier to pull it back ground level - that's essentially what myself and others are alluding to.

The stats will say two assists but you judge that game for 90mins and the good opportunities squandered by Alli either by looking so bloody uncomfortable on the ball, stupid flicks or simply being careless running into defenders.

This is a player who's status is now recognised worldwide so scrutiny has to match. He is a bona-fide talent with a knack of getting on the end of things but some of what he's serving in the heat of battle is sub-standard garbage.

For me it was the pace of the cross that made the goal. Brilliant skill from Kane to connect with it as he did, but I think Dele had the right idea.

 

[mw828]

Eriksen MOTM again for me. What is the common thread between all of the goals? One man. Perfectly weighted and timed ball to send Dele (and Kane) in behind for the first, cool flick over the top to let Jan get into space and make something happen on the second, and another great first time finish for the third. My biggest fear is how irreplaceable he is within this squad.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

lol love your work BC but Dele was anything but lazy today. He was superb after we went down to 10 men.

Like you point out about others on Aurier - you've already made your mind up. I've always felt Dele can be lazy and petulant. He was neither today and put in a proper shift. To suggest otherwise is to not have properly watched the game.

I'm hardly in a minority here with Alli, he's an incredibly frustrating player because he is capable of great productive contribution, but there is a lot of careless wastage too.

He's lazy without the ball in the way he doesn't press properly, he's lazy in the way he loses the ball and doesn't then bust a gut to get it back, letting others deal with it, he's lazy because sometimes he just stands there watching defenders pass the ball around sometimes without properly closing them down. Great, when we went down to ten men he worked a bit harder, so he should, so should everyone, I'm talking about the whole 90, and much of what goes on in other games.

He also has to find a balance between valid risk and needlessly pissing the ball away cheaply, constantly with a poor touch or attempting the ridiculous. I understand he's young and learning, and his risk/reward selection dilemma, I'm not saying Son would be in my team most weeks ahead of him, he wouldn't, but he's got to improve his all round game hasn't he ? He can't continue being this combination of infuriatingly frustrating and and costing his team possession in important moments, and incredibly productive, if he's truly going to be a top class player, the very top teams won't wear that for long will they ?

And sometimes giving players a kick up the arse, or a rest, can serve a purpose, motivate etc. That's partly why you have squads, no?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Not really my point tbh. He got two assists and worked hard, yet is criticised for being lazy and over-hitting an assist. It's desperation.

Is whacking the ball at the keeper an assist now ?

 

[Phomesy]

@Bus-Conductor I agree with everything you just wrote. I just don't think it applies in this game. Dele wasn't lazy or naive or petulant. His running into space was incredible and his work when we went down to 10 men faultless.

Thought it was one of his more professional performances which would appear backed up by Poch who kept him on the full game.

Professional while bumbling is an improvement

 

[JayB]

Poch obviously trusts Sissoko more than Winks at this point, with Dembele and Wanyama out. As disappointing as Sissoko has been I appreciate his willingness to be a squad player and slot in where needed.

I'm not sure I'd say that quite yet. Winks said that the match against Barnsley was the first time he'd felt fully fit and comfortable since his injury, and he's clearly still getting back to full match sharpness. It will be interesting to see who Poch plays in CM against APOEL, but either way I think it's just the case that Sissoko is the most match-ready CM option we have at the moment.

 

[danielneeds]

I'm hardly in a minority here with Alli, he's an incredibly frustrating player because he is capable of great productive contribution, but there is a lot of careless wastage too.

He's lazy without the ball in the way he doesn't press properly, he's lazy in the way he loses the ball and doesn't then bust a gut to get it back, letting others deal with it, he's lazy because sometimes he just stands there watching defenders pass the ball around sometimes without properly closing them down. Great, when we went down to ten men he worked a bit harder, so he should, so should everyone, I'm talking about the whole 90, and much of what goes on in other games.

He also has to find a balance between valid risk and needlessly pissing the ball away cheaply, constantly with a poor touch or attempting the ridiculous. I understand he's young and learning, and his risk/reward selection dilemma, I'm not saying Son would be in my team most weeks ahead of him, he wouldn't, but he's got to improve his all round game hasn't he ? He can't continue being this combination of infuriatingly frustrating and and costing his team possession in important moments, and incredibly productive, if he's truly going to be a top class player, the very top teams won't wear that for long will they ?

And sometimes giving players a kick up the arse, or a rest, can serve a purpose, motivate etc. That's partly why you have squads, no?

Thing is you were spouting the same BS about this time last season about Alli, and then he went on the most incredible scoring run to propel us into the title race. He's also assisted Kane more than any other player has assisted another single player.

He's not perfect, he lacks consistency for 90 minutes, we all know this. But the irony is you're always calling for more academy players to be thrown in. Well guess what, this is exactly what you get from young players, inconsistency, immature decision making, etc, etc. It's a balance, because you can't have too many inconsistent players in your team if you're constantly chasing results.

 

[mpickard2087]

Anyway, thoughts on the match...

As I said in the match thread at HT and FT, I'm not as yet convinced by the system and personnel employed, but in these initial matches (well, the away ones at least where the game is a bit more open) it has been an effective one in the final third. I don't think we're particularly controlling the midfield very well, which eventually will see us run into difficulties, our pressing still hasn't fired yet this season, and in its own way its another version basically of open football just relying on outgunning the opposition.

The first half for me was pretty meh. A few nice passages of play here and there but no real concerted pressure. Eventually we punished turnover ball very ruthlessly, with some nice bits of play from Eriksen and Vertonghen in particular plus finishing from Kane, and found ourselves 2-0 up and in a comfy position at the break. After half time we found ourselves pushed back (or deliberately shelled), starved of the ball for the opening 10-15 mins, and yet still managed to score a third and hit the post a couple of times. Not great control, not exactly dominant, but 3-0 up. I think it was a generous scoreline but hey, we all remember the days not so long ago when a meh performance was more likely to mean the scoreline was in reverse so could be worse.....

You assume the game is up, but after that little bit of pressure West Ham finally nicked a goal - predictably as we didn't defend a set piece that well. And then the Aurier red card left us with about 25 mins to weather the inevitable storm.

I'll just come out and say that at this point I didn't agree with everything we did after the red card and feel Poch could have read what was happening better and adjusted to it. I was getting flashbacks to that 2-2 Stoke game a couple of years ago where similar happened. You know what they are going to do, its going to be launched into our box, they then brought on an extra player on the left side, even more of a clue as to where the delivery will be coming from... And yet we kind of ignored it. Sissoko and then Trippier were often left two vs. one and the second goal eventually came from that flank, with other reasonable opportunities after that. We didn't hold out, and it's lucky we had the cushion of a two goal lead. I'd have definitely left Sissoko on and shored up our right flank probably going 4-4-1, and I thought both Alli and Kane were done in the last 15 mins and both should have been subbed off earlier for fresh legs who would keep shape better.

In the end it was three points won in a bit of a rollercoaster of a game. Some positives, some stuff to work on. Next.....

Lloris - A couple of routine saves, charged out of his goal a few times, picked the ball out of his net a couple of times... Did he have much more to do?

Alderweireld - Decent enough game, but just not the imperious figure with an aura he was pre-injury.

Sanchez - Must be careful about getting too tight to his man and getting easily rolled, but on the whole a solid game and kicked and headed away when required in the latter stages.

Vertonghen - For a couple of years I was, very justifiably in my opinion, pretty critical of him. Now, If he isn't currently the best centre half in the league I'd like to know who is. Pretty solid defensively, and great work for the second goal amongst other impressive forays forward with the ball.

Aurier - Its early days, there is no need to panic, he's clearly got ability... But too many were rushing to his defence today, when the evidence for him was thin. The, admittedly impressive, last ditch defending was almost always to bail out his own mistakes. Positionally he was all over the place - and it wasn't as if it was in situations where he could say for instance he was stranded up pitch as we had been attacking. Then capped it with a silly red card. Things can only get better...

Davies - Bit quiet first half, solid in the second. Looked a bit weak for the second goal conceded, though I don't think he'd have stopped the header.

Dier - Ok.

Sissoko - In fairness to him he is looking more comfortable. He's having better moments, picking the right passes etc, and making some contributions. However when we have the ball he doesn't particularly see a great deal of it, without he isn't doing a great deal - pressing, or providing a screen in front of the defence - and just when you think 'maybe, just maybe it's coming together for him' he will promptly shin his first touch 10 yards away or pass one out of play. He did also lose his man for the goal. Slight improvement, a long long way to go.

Eriksen - This wasn't a game where he had the total run of it, but still had a big hand in the opening goals before capping it by getting the third himself. So important.

Alli - I thought his application was fine. He was getting about the pitch and getting stuck in and looking for work. He was involved in the opening two goals. And yet at crucial points he was also a bit wasteful and then tired in the last 20 mins and Poch did him no favours by keeping him on the pitch.

Kane - Wasn't a game where he had it all his own way or regular supply, yet two goals and was really unlucky not to get the third too. Worked pretty hard once again, but should have been subbed a little earlier for me.

Subs:
Winks - A few nice moments.
Trippier - Got given a pretty thankless task.
Llorente - Some really good hold up play in the late stages, including the chance he forged for Alli.

 

[Spurger King]

Is whacking the ball at the keeper an assist now ?

It is when it's Joe Hart.

 

[tiger666]

Is whacking the ball at the keeper an assist now ?

I'm sure it would be if Lesniak did it.

 

[ohtottenham!]

For me it was the pace of the cross that made the goal. Brilliant skill from Kane to connect with it as he did, but I think Dele had the right idea.

Great by both of them. Thing with Kane though, is his unbelievable development as a striker, and also support forward when he needs to be one. That weight and the pace of the ball from Alli was one thing, but for Kane to read all of that, and in an instant, adjust to make his choice of header, get his angles right in terms of seeing the goal and placing his header bang into the side netting was something else!

Fella knows his space, everything about where the ball is and its movement, and he uses all of that to elude defensive cover, and is always aware of where the goal is, its dimensions, and how to get it into it! Sounds a bit basic and primitive, but he does that thing time and again!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Thing is you were spouting the same BS about this time last season about Alli, and then he went on the most incredible scoring run to propel us into the title race. He's also assisted Kane more than any other player has assisted another single player.

He's not perfect, he lacks consistency for 90 minutes, we all know this. But the irony is you're always calling for more academy players to be thrown in. Well guess what, this is exactly what you get from young players, inconsistency, immature decision making, etc, etc. It's a balance, because you can't have too many inconsistent players in your team if you're constantly chasing results.

Not sure what BS I'm spouting? Are you saying Alli doesn't do the things I say? Should Alli be undroppable? If academy players don't perform, don't press, waste the ball, such as Townsend, I'll say the same about them, but I like the positives that Alli brings much more than Townsend which is why I never wanted Townsend in the side, and said so, but understand completely how Alli is playing most weeks.

I understand the payoff with Alli, but it doesn't mean it's always acceptable and that he can't be benched occasionally to kick him up the arse. And it's not just the almost constant, careless waste, it's the lazy pressing he does a lot as well.