Match Ratings Ratings vs West Ham

[guiltyparty]

So is the 'Dele is a fucking useless, bumbling idiot' agenda, which is far more prevalent on here than the 'Dele can do no wrong' agenda.

It really isn't, I would say it's split SC down the middle, but if you polled it, I bet there'd be more supporters than doubters

But either way, your comment says it all. People focus on BC's comments ("bumbling" is pretty much a catchphrase) and rope in everyone who doesn't say he's flawless on that.

Why can't people have nuanced conversations anymore? I've had this all weekend with the Uber thing, it's like post Brexit the ability to debate has been torpedoed

I've never used the word bumbling; I've never said he was an idiot; I've never said he was lazy. I've never said he should be dropped. I've praised him
a lot and ive praised Pleat repeatedly for unearthing him (who some fans like to call Pervy, way to go for consistency - Alli can do no wrong even when getting sent off for petulance, swearing at team mates or just being anonymous but denigrate the club legend who found him, sounds fair)

I've just said we've shown to be as effective with Son in instead, that he has a lot to learn and I didn't think he played very well today. That while he has moments of magic, he goes missing for vast swathes of game and loses the ball constantly which puts us under pressure. Is any of that really debatable?

The reaction to comments of Alli having a bad game are borderline insane. Even going on WhoScored, for some independent verification, says it was his second worst performance of the season.

 

[guiltyparty]

None of which I disagree with. I'm just adding some much needed perspective. Prodigious talents are still young, still learning and still prone to mistakes and fluctuations in form. My point is that that should also be taken into account but so very rarely is.
Personally I don't see why it is so important to offer a critique for some people, but to each their own I suppose.

That's the entire purpose of this forum no?

Do all those saying Dele is beyond critique themselves refrain from critiquing anyone? Would be a very quiet place if so, I don't see it

It's like yesterday someone had a pop about making a comment during the match... in the match day thread. What else is it for?!

Did someone change the site rules when I wasn't looking? It's just odd and seems a way of trying to shut down views you don't agree with, which has concerning implications

 

[guiltyparty]

Case in point is surely the comparison and analysis of Sissoko along with Alli today.

The expectation is seemingly so low with the former that today it was passed off as an 'improved' performance so whilst the indiscretions are still there, Sissoko does seemingly function better, albeit not a preferred choice in that role, in the middle than say in a more advanced position.

It's only because we all believe Alli can achieve great things in football - hopefully the majority of his career with us - which is why seeing him perform this season has been so frustrating to watch.

This. Very well put. And our friend WhoScored gave them both 6.9, which adds weight to your point.

The idea that those frustrated with Alli think he's shit is a weird lie that is being brewed but said by no one.

"Much needed perspective". Yeah because no one else knows or is saying Alli is young and needs time. Proper professor of football there with the brainwave from leftfield

 

[tiger666]

If poch persists with the Dier Sissoko pairing we are gonna come unstuck big time against better opponents than yesterday

Who should he have played in midfield?

 

[SoulDog]

I Love beating West Ham so much even if we did nearly fuck it . Typical Spurs.

I was pretty pleased with the starting lineup and glad to see aurier start, again not sure why sissoko and not winks?

Anyway I saw the game from about 20 mins in and I thought we were totally in control. We looked more comfortable on the ball and looking dangerous. We opened them up I think from a good sissoko ball out to aurier and nearly scored from a hard but pretty decent cross from aurier not sure how Kane missed it but it was offside anyway and then I do not think it was long after that we opened them up again and Kane scored, I thought at the time Ali messed up the cross has he had been Messing everything else up all day but Kane got his head on to it. Great goal.from then on we were in total control.

Sissoko is not a great footballer we all know that but he showed a few glimpes of what he can do he made a few good passes saw the ball quite a bit and did work hard and make a few challeneges that's all I can say about him, I want to give the bloke a chance as poch ovisously sees something in him we don't. I would of started winks but he had an "okay" first half.

Ali was the one yet again who really really frustrates me. Again hardly doing anything in the match (apart from diving and running into players) he done well to set up Kane which o thought he nearly overhit the cross and quite a few times he got into some good dangerous positions to either score or make a crucial ball but wasted it by being too slow on the ball, takinf too many touches running into players or generally being clumsy very overrated imo. If he played for any other club all Spurs fans would hate him

Aurier I feel a bit sorry for yes he caught out a few times but didn't walker for most of his career? He was ovisously trying to impress and done alot of good things, some hard crucial challenges some nice runs and before the sending off he won the ball and went on a nice run very promising.

Sanchez was very good.

Davies again is getting better and better.

Llorente done very well we come on.

I dunno why he took of eriksen from then on things just went down hill really and I dunno how we let them back into that as we was in total control


Oh well three points is three points and we beat them wankers who really thought they would win

 

[EastLondonYid]

Who should he have played in midfield?

When both your cm are uncomfortable receiving the ball in tight spaces and aren't capable of starting our pattern of play,you will always have problems linking the midfield with our forwards.
Sissoko and Dier together is not good enough for a top side.
If winks for whatever reason is not deemed suitable be it fitness or whatever. I would sooner play Dele or Erikson deeper than the bull in a china shop sissoko.....and that would also allow Son to start...win win imo ofc.
With 3 central defenders Dier doesn't need another holding player holding his hand, he needs somone who can play out from deep with quick qaulity passing...not sissoko who worked hard but is not really the answer is he.

 

[Mr Pink]

Sissoko in the middle is causing absolute chaos for the opposition, NO JOKE. As soon as we spring he just tares forward leaving so much room for Eriksen , Alli etc. Long may it continue.

Spot on.

I'd actually like to see him paired with Wanyama in the middle for some games.

His powerful runs through the centre of the pitch are causing overloads for us by the time we hit the opponents box. It's actually helping us break down opponents relatively easily and why we blew Everton off the pitch as well. More effective than the missing metronomic savour.

The key is he has to play this position though, shunted out wide and he/we will be much less effective.

But some people have already made their minds up so he's on a beating to nothing.

Pity, because I think he could do well for us this season if he really felt the fans were getting behind him.

 

[diamond lights]

Good win without hitting the heights yet. Our rhythm of last season will come. A couple of observations:-

Sissoko - credit to him. If it wasn't for such a shit season last year there would be genuine agreement that he can do a job and to be fair he has always tried. No sulks or lack of work. Won't be with us long term but can be a positive part of the squad.
Dele - In case anyone hasn't noticed he has had long periods each season (mostly) near the start where he hasn't done much. He can go through many games with little obvious contribution but pop up with a goal or assist at a vital time. He doesn't play like Eriksen/Modric and run games. His form will improve.
Vertonghen - best centre-half in the Prem League and has been for the last season.
Aurier - will be a big player for us. Poch will iron out some of his decision making but all the ability is there and he's a winner.
Winks - looking a bit more like himself .
Dembele is obviously not going to be able to play consistently - we need to bring in Barkley to play that role.
Llorente - loved his 5 minutes. Some brilliant hold up play and a bit of a scrap.


Get Rose and Lamela back in contention and things are looking good.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

For me it was the pace of the cross that made the goal. Brilliant skill from Kane to connect with it as he did, but I think Dele had the right idea.

Anyone criticising the cross, hasn't played football. It's easier playing a cross around a defender when the ball is off the ground because it's so much harder for the defender to make contact with the ball. The West Ham defender anticipates the cross and lunges with his foot; if Dele plays it on the ground it's probably intercepted and no goal. The weight, height and accuracy of the cross was easy pickings for a player of Kane's quality. Dele played the best ball for that scenario. Why anyone would criticise it is just plain baffling

 

[JimmyG2]

Dele is gifted but young.
Even when he is 'fuck bumbling'
as he did on several occasions yesterday
he still has two or three opponents round him
which means there is space somewhere else

He gives our play an unpredictable element
by his own unpredictability
which spices up a sometimes leaden dough.
white sliced to artisan multiseed in one go.

His statistics are undeniable
The combination of Dele's run; Eriksen's through ball, and Kane's finishing
is the essence of Spurs at its best these days.
For me anyway.
Though I don't disagree with a lot that BC says even about Dele.
It's the bits in-between that count for so much.

 

[Gareth88]

We won. Just thankful tbh.

Scrappy last 20 mins happy to get the 3 points and move on.

 

[Gareth88]

Can we please take a moment to revel in Llorentes sexiness?

Also we neeeeeed Winks starting. Pleaseeee poch please soon.

Who would you start winks over?

 

[scat1620]

Who would you start winks over?

Sissoko? If Winks has properly recovered from the injury he picked up in last season's run-in, I'd have no qualms at all about making that change to the starting line-up.

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

Who should he have played in midfield?

Our best option might well be Eriksen for Sissoko, and Kane to take over Eriksen's role, with Llorente up front. Not ideal, but it doesn't have to be, it just has to be better than playing Sissoko in midfield. When Wanyama and Winks are fully match fit, and with Dembele able to play alternate games again, the problem eases slightly.

 

[shoggy33]

Audere est Fucker

That was a real curates egg of a game, selection wise, tactically and in how it unfolded.

Our palpable problems remain in central midfield. West Ham are a mess, and though we are clearly the more talented and better coached side, that was a game that never felt very convincing from us, we were edging the game but it never felt rhythmic or very cohesive. And that's largely because of the selections and application Poch is making.

I remain very unimpressed with Poch's preference for Sissoko in one of the pivoting "8" roles ahead of the infinitely more capable Winks. I just don't get it. The only real advantage Sissoko holds over Winks is his physique. But Sissoko's isn't even that great defensively, he much prefers going forwards, but he lacks the touch, technique or finesse to be very effective going forwards. He's effectively a rhinoceros in a tutu. And I know some people might pay to watch that, I'm just not one of them.

The other compromise is dropping Eriksen into the other "8" role on the other side of Dier. With Alli's fucking bumbling, Kane's kind of robust but erratic hold up play, there is now no-one to provide the composure in the final third, and to be honest, Eriksen is beacon of composure in a sea of bumbly chaos a lot of the time, but I don't think he's great at doing some of the nitty gritty that a deeper CM sometimes needs when things get tetchy and inches are being scrapped over in the middle third.

So what are getting is all a bit Heath Robinson. We don't seem to have full control of games, in terms of tempo or tone, from the middle of the pitch. We are also sacrificing composure and craft in the final third. We are exposing our defenders a little more, particularly our full backs, and Aurier was caught with his pants down a few times today, and we were very fortunate not to concede at 0-0 a couple of times.

The decision not to give Onomah games last year, minutes at the end of games last year, games in midfield in pre season and then pack him off on loan is looking increasingly short sighted now we have Wanyama unavailable and Dembele with the inevitable chronic problems.

The other major issue is the continual selection of a woefully erratic Alli. This isn't a new thing, but instead of improving, it's getting worse. And it's not like people can claim that he gets the nod because, despite all the lazy, careless crap he produces, because Son has proven equally productive. Now I'm not saying Son should be automatically ahead of Alli in the pecking order, but if Poch was the meritocratic altruist we are led to believe, then Alli's performances deserve for him to have been dropped for Son before now. And not doing so is not doing either player any favours. Son must be thinking "what's the point, if he can be this shit, and still get picked ahead of me every week". And Alli must be thinking he can keep producing this shite because he gets picked anyway. Some of his wastage today was scandalous. And it could be mitigated if, like Lamela say, even on an erratic day, he charged around tenaciously working for the team, but his pressing is lethargic and hap hazard much of the time. The boy needs a really good kick up the arse.

I understand why Poch went for Aurier today, but I really don't understand all the praise he was getting in the match thread. It was a typical case of people either making up their minds already, without really having seen enough of him to form a good opinion, or people getting seduced by a player who's tenacious and has a trick or two. Don't misunderstand me, there's more to Aurier than that, he's got some good all round qualities, but I said before, he's also got some issues, he's not perfect, and he definitely wasn't great today. He did a couple of good things. But he also did some poor things, got caught out a few times, sold himself for the Arnautovic chance, nearly gave away a couple of pens, and didn't actually produce much going forward. There are better things to come from him, he is a competitor with ability, but don't pretend you are seeing something great before you do.

On the plus side, I do like this system that Poch has adopted, it's just a shame that he's not quite as brave or meritocratic as he could be.

Audere est Fucker Poch, Andere est Fucker...

Individual

Lloris - OK

Aurier - A real mixed bag. Got caught out of position several times, dived in recklessly a few times, allowing Arnautovic to get away, nearly gave away two pens, but also showed he is an energetic, tenacious competitor, with decent technique.

TA/DS/JV - Our three musketeers were all pretty decent, Vertonghen continues to be the star off the three, playing a hand in the second goal.

Davies - Another decent game and again, nice to see him getting into to forward areas.

Dier - Another game where there were times when he was left a bit exposed by having Sissoko and Eriksen either side, and he's not the dynamic hunter gatherer that Wanyama is in those circumstances, he tends to just take 3 steps backwards and dig a hole. He was Ok, but he'd be a lot better with a couple of proper cm/8's either side.

Sissoko - I don't get the praise some were giving him. OK, he didn't stink the place out, but is that really good enough for a team at our level ? His technique is awful, he's poor under pressure in cm areas, he doesn't see enough of the ball, doesn't want it under pressure, which along with Dier just gives us very poor options when playing out. Going forward he lacks any finesse (and one stage he overhit a pass by about 40 yards) or vision, and at best is lucky if he just manages to deliver the obvious.

Eriksen - This was probably the worst game he's had for a while, but still managed to contribute some important stuff, including a nice finish, a lovely ball for the first and a clever part in the second. I thought there were times his lack of tenacity compromised us in midfield, and we really missed having him in the final third more. Didn't see anywhere near as much ball as he usually does. How the fuck he gets subbed before Alli is anyone's guess though.

Alli - Look, we all know what the kid's MO is by now. Being able to produce an assist or a goal is negated when your laziness with and without the ball is also helping the opposition make goals and assists. It cost us against Chelsea and it nearly cost us several times today, great positions spunked away through poor touch or poor decisions. I even thought his easy pass for Kane's goal was nearly overhit. And he's got to work harder without the ball on days like this to at least mitigate. Needs to be dropped next couple of games, in Son we have a player who can also produce "moments" at a similar rate, and though is also erratic, he's at least a bit busier about it.

Kane - Both his chances looked easier than they were IMO, Alli's was fired in ahead of him and the keeper rebound goal required composure and technique, he took both superbly. Unlucky with his free kick. On the down side, he was offside too often and there were a couple of times he was a bit greedy.

You realise we won, right?

 

[Gareth88]

Sissoko? If Winks has properly recovered from the injury he picked up in last season's run-in, I'd have no qualms at all about making that change to the starting line-up.

I think Sissoko is talller... which would be his probably only advantage a head of winks yesterday. I'm looking forward to the future headaches of a full healthy first team.

 

[guiltyparty]

As a matter of fact, I was surprised Dele did not play it on the deck. I don't think it was an easy finish.

Watching it again on MOTD, Kane points to the floor in front of him, asking for it on the deck. Kane did incredibly well to direct it on goal

 

[Jamturk]

Watching it again on MOTD, Kane points to the floor in front of him, asking for it on the deck. Kane did incredibly well to direct it on goal

Yes, but if you look at the defender between Alli and Kane he slides along the floor which would have blocked the low cross.

Clever play from Alli.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

Dele is gifted but young.
Even when he is 'fuck bumbling'
as he did on several occasions yesterday
he still has two or three opponents round him
which means there is space somewhere else

He gives our play an unpredictable element
by his own unpredictability
which spices up a sometimes leaden dough.
white sliced to artisan multiseed in one go.

His statistics are undeniable
The combination of Dele's run; Eriksen's through ball, and Kane's finishing
is the essence of Spurs at its best these days.
For me anyway.
Though I don't disagree with a lot that BC says even about Dele.
It's the bits in-between that count for so much.

Verses now, Jimmy? Like it

 

[Wellspurs]

Watching it again on MOTD, Kane points to the floor in front of him, asking for it on the deck. Kane did incredibly well to direct it on goal

That was to fool Hart? Obviously Kane and Alli have a code to play crosses opposite to what they signal.