Team v Man City

[mark87]

Has he ever played anything else?

Unfortunately not, no.

 

[dannythomas]

Lloris

Yedlin Dier Vertonghen Ogilvie

Winks Mason Bentaleb

Lamela Kane Eriksen
​

Or if we have to go with Poch's 4231:

Lloris

Yedlin Dier Vertonghen Ogilvie

Mason Bentaleb

Lamela Onomah Eriksen

Kane​

I really don't think this is the right game to bring in 3 young players. If we get hammered that would be not great for their confidence. Play them in the last 3 matches by all means. Also, now that Chadli has started scoring again I don't think leaving him out makes sense.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I really don't think this is the right game to bring in 3 young players. If we get hammered that would be not great for their confidence. Play them in the last 3 matches by all means. Also, now that Chadli has started scoring again I don't think leaving him out makes sense.

It's about taking a longer term stance, rather than worrying about this next game (or next 4). No one is (or should) going to let these kids be ruined by what happens in their first game or two. Just look at the patience we've shown with Mason, Carroll, Pritchard etc. We are not going to judge them on their first few appearances. But there won't be a better set of circumstances to give them first team experience than now. The next four games are utterly meaningless. They can come in under much less pressure, which should allow them to express themselves a little better, play with a little less fear.

 

[DaSpurs]

It's about taking a longer term stance, rather than worrying about this next game (or next 4). No one is (or should) going to let these kids be ruined by what happens in their first game or two. Just look at the patience we've shown with Mason, Carroll, Pritchard etc. We are not going to judge them on their first few appearances. But there won't be a better set of circumstances to give them first team experience than now. The next four games are utterly meaningless. They can come in under much less pressure, which should allow them to express themselves a little better, play with a little less fear.

I'm all for baptism with fire/dropping the kid into the pool to teach it to swim, but City might be a bit much. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you about the other remaining matches this term, but City would prey vehemently on our back line with that little experience in it. We have games we should have played them in and should play them in before the season runs out, but I wouldn't play them in this one. That's baptism in the the fires of hell.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm all for baptism with fire/dropping the kid into the pool to teach it to swim, but City might be a bit much. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you about the other remaining matches this term, but City would prey vehemently on our back line with that little experience in it. We have games we should have played them in and should play them in before the season runs out, but I wouldn't play them in this one. That's baptism in the the fires of hell.

Like Dier at RB, Davies at LB, Chiriches or Fazio as CB's fills you with confidence or is a better match for what City have got ?

 

[only1waddle]

Like Dier at RB, Davies at LB, Chiriches or Fazio as CB's fills you with confidence or is a better match for what City have got ?

City isn't the game to give an academy player his debut at left back BC, can't believe you would actually do it if you had that decision to make for real. Crazy scenes.

 

[DaSpurs]

Like Dier at RB, Davies at LB, Chiriches or Fazio as CB's fills you with confidence or is a better match for what City have got ?

Admittedly, touche, but Ogilvie and Onomah I wouldn't play in this one, and as you may have noted I've been advocating Onomah to get his first start for awhile. Yedlin I would play, as I agree with you entirely we could do with more runs off Lamela and I think Dier is a very poor fullback. Yedlin has already faced some of the best attacking mids on the planet and in the sweltering heat of Brazil with World Cup pressure, but that's eons beyond anything Ogilvie has faced. Navas will come out of the tunnel with a hard-on poking the guy ahead of him if he sees Ogilvie on the sheet.

But even so, I have to agree, it's not as if Davies will give me much more confidence either. Regardless, if we're going to be done on that side, I'd prefer it not to be at the expense of wrecking a youth debutant's confidence.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

City isn't the game to give an academy player his debut at left back BC, can't believe you would actually do it if you had that decision to make for real. Crazy scenes.

Admittedly, touche, but Ogilvie and Onomah I wouldn't play in this one, and as you may have noted I've been advocating Onomah to get his first start for awhile. Yedlin I would play, as I agree with you entirely we could do with more runs off Lamela and I think Dier is a very poor fullback. Yedlin has already faced some of the best attacking mids on the planet and in the sweltering heat of Brazil with World Cup pressure, but that's eons beyond anything Ogilvie has faced. Navas will come out of the tunnel with a hard-on poking the guy ahead of him if he sees Ogilvie on the sheet.

But even so, I have to agree, it's not as if Davies will give me much more confidence either. Regardless, if we're going to be done on that side, I'd prefer it not to be at the expense of wrecking a youth debutant's confidence.

But no-one's going to let it wreck his confidence. The coaching staff will make sure of that. And better, if it is going to happen, that he gets embarrassed by some of the best players in the league than other, lesser perceived players.

No-one's going to hound him out the club or write off his career if Navas or Silva give him a hard game. In my experience these kids rarely let you down for effort and commitment, and imagine if they actually have a decent game - the huge confidence boost that will give them and what difference it could make to our summer transfer strategy.

 

[DaSpurs]

But no-one's going to let it wreck his confidence. The coaching staff will make sure of that. And better, if it is going to happen, that he gets embarrassed by some of the best players in the league than other, lesser perceived players.

No-one's going to hound him out the club or write off his career if Navas or Silva give him a hard game. In my experience these kids rarely let you down for effort and commitment, and imagine if they actually have a decent game - the huge confidence boost that will give them and what difference it could make to our summer transfer strategy.

It doesn't always work like that though, BC. We could have the best youth man-managers and psychologists/psychiatrists on our books in the league, and it might still not be enough to pick a kid up after situations like that. There is just absolutely no guarantee it wouldn't hurt the kid.

True, having it happen against one of the best would help according to reason. But when you're in that situation, reason doesn't always help, regardless of how much there is. I've been there, I've been well out of confidence and there wasn't a thing my coach could say or I could say to myself to pick me out of it. Sure, you could write that off as I was just a mentally weak player should you so desire, but I was older and more mature than Ogilvie and the fact of the matter is we have no indication whatsoever as to whether he could handle it or not. What we do know is he's never played a second or professional football in his life, so he'd have a very poor frame of reference to compare to if he gets worked by Navas, thus putting him at all the more risk. Yes, there is the possibility he could stifle Navas and consequently have a fantastic debut and confidence surge, but nonetheless the chances of that and the opposing risk involved are just not favorable.

It's different for an attacker, as even if they don't score they don't have to take personal blame for a poor result, especially if he's a kid. But for a fullback, imagine if he were to make one mistake, just one mistake that Navas punished, blistered by him, and took it to the house. All of that in front of 40,000 present fans and millions watching all over the world. That could be devastating to a young defender, especially when he's never even played in front of more than a couple thousand present fans before.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Lloris
Yedlin- Dier- Vertonghen- Rose (hopefully)
Mason- Bentaleb
Lamela-Dembele-Eriksen
Kane​

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

@DaSpurs @Bus-Conductor Who cares. It is not as if the match is very important either way, I don't think who starts matter much. In fact the result is of so little importance that we might even end up winning it.

 

[DaSpurs]

@DaSpurs @Bus-Conductor Who cares. It is not as if the match is very important either way, I don't think who starts matter much. In fact the result is of so little importance that we might even end up winning it.

I couldn't care less about the result, in fact as of September I thought we didn't stand a chance in hell at top four unless we decided to address obvious weaknesses in January, which we didn't. What I care about is not exposing a promising youth to a dangerous situation psychologically, that is it.

 

[Chris12]

Fuck it, he's ginger. Probably been through worse.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I couldn't care less about the result, in fact as of September I thought we didn't stand a chance in hell at top four unless we decided to address obvious weaknesses in January, which we didn't. What I care about is not exposing a promising youth to a dangerous situation psychologically, that is it.

Result of no importance -> less in game pressure -> less risk of starting "wrong" players or starting players at a "wrong" time.

 

[DaSpurs]

Result of no importance -> less in game pressure -> less risk of starting "wrong" players or starting players at a "wrong" time.

That undoubtedly helps, but doesn't entirely counter it.

A 19 year old fullback with top defensive responsibility who has played nothing but youth football his entire life at nearly empty stadiums at most, to playing in front of 40,000 present fans, cameras everywhere, knowledge millions all over the world would be watching, and against one of the best sides in the world. That frame of reference is everything, as he has nothing to compare it to in his mind if things don't go well. That is an extremely risky situation to put a debutant kid defender into, and the exact reason no one does it.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

That undoubtedly helps, but doesn't entirely counter it.

A 19 year old fullback with top defensive responsibility who has played nothing but youth football his entire life at nearly empty stadiums at most, to playing in front of 40,000 present fans, cameras everywhere, knowledge millions all over the world would be watching, and against one of the best sides in the world. That frame of reference is everything, as he has nothing to compare it to in his mind if things don't go well. That is an extremely risky situation to put a debutant kid defender into, and the exact reason no one does it.

Agreed. It's a pity it wouldn't be on a larger stadium

 

[Blake Griffin]

That undoubtedly helps, but doesn't entirely counter it.

A 19 year old fullback with top defensive responsibility who has played nothing but youth football his entire life at nearly empty stadiums at most, to playing in front of 40,000 present fans, cameras everywhere, knowledge millions all over the world would be watching, and against one of the best sides in the world. That frame of reference is everything, as he has nothing to compare it to in his mind if things don't go well. That is an extremely risky situation to put a debutant kid defender into, and the exact reason no one does it.

arsenal did it with bellerin, his first appearance was away to dortmund.

 

[DaSpurs]

arsenal did it with bellerin, his first appearance was away to dortmund.

Not the same, because he had seen professional football prior to that with Watford (and so had a frame of reference), and of course because Arsenal simply had no choice given how many injuries they had.

 

[only1waddle]

arsenal did it with bellerin, his first appearance was away to dortmund.

Probably because Wenger was comfortable with it, I haven't seen a post suggesting Ogilvie is ready even from those who follow the Academy closely.

 

[Huddlebone]

----------Lloris-----------
Dier-Fazio-Verts-Rose
---Bentaleb-Paulinho
Dembele-Eriksen-Chadli
------------Kane