The anti-Stratford protests begin!

[roosh]

But we are watching spurs challenge for CL honours, at the right end of the league table, with all those players and guess what, we did it at WHL. So this bleak picture you paint clearly doesn't stack up as evidenced by our current position.

Aresenal are going to grow in strength financially, City and Chelsea have a blank Chequebook and United are probably going to grow in strength financially, given that the Glazers covered most of the debt (didn't they?).

Like it or not, how we perform financially into the future will have a bearing on our level of success.

Even look at it at the moment, we are just falling short of the CL places and City are only going to improve. At the moment we are in a battle for 4th with the defending champions, and one of the main reasons we couldn't get a striker, or so we've been lead to believe, is because we cannot risk the financial stability of the club.

It has taken us a very long time to get to where we are now, but the teams around us are not going to stand still. If we take on a much bigger financial burden than we need to, we could restrict our future progress.

 

[SpurSince57]

Aresenal are going to grow in strength financially, City and Chelsea have a blank Chequebook and United are probably going to grow in strength financially, given that the Glazers covered most of the debt (didn't they?).

Like it or not, how we perform financially into the future will have a bearing on our level of success.

Even look at it at the moment, we are just falling short of the CL places and City are only going to improve. At the moment we are in a battle for 4th with the defending champions, and one of the main reasons we couldn't get a striker, or so we've been lead to believe, is because we cannot risk the financial stability of the club.

It has taken us a very long time to get to where we are now, but the teams around us are not going to stand still. If we take on a much bigger financial burden than we need to, we could restrict our future progress.

No, one of the main reasons we couldn't get a striker has been that a striker who is a major upgrade on what we have hasn't been easily available.

Arsenal will, City are going to be able to outbid us whatever we do, United are in a horrific position due to the debt acquired by the Glazers, and Chelsea have cut back dramatically. Figures as of a year ago, from the Indy, with brief but to-the-point comment:

Manchester United

Turnover: £278.5m

Operating profit: £91.3m

Net debt: £716.6m

Interest payment: £68.5m

Manchester United's Byzantine finances are essentially a tale of massive profits and massive interest payments. The club's 08-09 accounts showed that the Red Devils paid £42m of interest on their £500m of bank loans. And the interest charge on the "payment-in-kind" loan, secured on the controlling shares in the club of the Glazer family, was £26m. But the PIK loan "rolls up" the interest, so the value of that debt rose to £202m in the year. Last month the Glazer family issued a £500m bond with an interest rate of 9 per cent and maturity date of 2017. The proceeds will be used to pay off the existing bank loans. The bond prospectus also makes provision for up to £70m to be taken out of the club "for general purposes, including repaying existing indebtedness". This is assumed to mean paying off some of the Glazers' PIK debt, on which the interest rate will rise to 16.5 per cent this August. The full PIK debt is repayable in 2017. The recent bond prospectus also revealed that the Glazers lost the club £35m attempting to hedge against a rise in interest rates.

Arsenal

Turnover: £312.3m

Operating profit: £58.8m

Net debt: £297.0m

Interest payment: £16.6m

A pocket of financial sanity. The club's 08-09 accounts show the outstanding value of the bonds issued to finance the building of the Emirates stadium at £244.9m. But this is repayable over a 20 to 22-year term at a fixed interest rate of 5.3 per cent. The club is also paying off some of the principal sum of the bond each year (£5.3m in 08-09), which means that Arsenal, managed by Arsène Wenger, will not be saddled with debt indefinitely. The bank loan taken out by the club with Barclays to finance the Highbury Square apartment complex, on the site of Arsenal's former ground, stood at £137m, with a repayment date of December 2010 and an interest rate of 2-2.5 per cent above the London inter-bank lending rate (Libor). Since then, however, the club has reduced the property bank loan to £47.1m, financed by selling apartments at Highbury Square for a discount. The main financial risk for the club would be a failure to fill the Emirates.

Liverpool

Turnover: £164.2m

Operating profit: £24.9m

Net debt: £261.7m

Interest payment: £36.5m

The clearest possible example of the madness of a leveraged buyout in football. Liverpool's relatively healthy operating profits in 07-08 were wiped out by interest payments on their borrowings from the Royal Bank of Scotland and the US bank Wachovia. Since Liverpool refinanced in the summer, the new managing director of the club, Christian Purslow, has claimed that the club's debt has come down to £237m.

Tottenham Hotspur

Turnover: £113.0m

Operating profit: £18.4m

Net debt: £45.9m

Interest payment: £8.0m

Spurs have gone into debt to build a new training ground in Enfield. The club is paying an annual interest rate of 7.29 per cent on £30m of its borrowings. But it does not have to pay this back until 2024. A planned new 56,000-seat stadium should increase match-day revenues, although it remains to be seen how much the project itself will cost, or the terms of the financing.

Chelsea

Turnover: £190.0m

Operating profit: –£11.4m

Net debt: £511.6m

Interest payment: £0.7m

Chelsea's 07-08 accounts show the club falling short of its goal of financial sufficiency. The accounts also showed a debt of £488m to its owner, Roman Abramovich. But last December the club released a statement revealing that this had been converted to equity, leaving the club "virtually debt-free". Those same results also featured an exceptional payment of £12.6m to Luiz Felipe Scolari and three coaching staff following the Brazilian's sacking as manager last season.

Manchester City

Turnover: £87.0m

Operating profit: –£34.2m

Net debt: £194.4m

Interest payment: £14.4m

The normal rules of business do not apply to Manchester City. The latest accounts show a company with a turnover of £87m running at an operating loss of £34m and with an accumulated debt to Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al-Nahyan of Abu Dhabi of £194m. Since then, the club has spent £117m on players, including Emmanuel Adebayor and Carlos Tevez. But last month Sheikh Mansour converted Manchester City's entire £305m debt to him into equity.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ebt-league-how-much-do-clubs-owe-1912244.html

 

[roosh]

No, one of the main reasons we couldn't get a striker has been that a striker who is a major upgrade on what we have hasn't been easily available.

Arsenal will, City are going to be able to outbid us whatever we do, United are in a horrific position due to the debt acquired by the Glazers, and Chelsea have cut back dramatically. Figures as of a year ago, from the Indy, with brief but to-the-point comment:



http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ebt-league-how-much-do-clubs-owe-1912244.html

The glazers have covered a lot of that debt themselves, so united aren't in as bad a position as they were Irish Independent.

and chelsea's debt to Abramovic has been converted to equity, so the club are effectively debt free. They are still owned by a Russian Billionaire Oligarch, so I don't think that they will have too many concerns over their finances.

When you say that a major upgrade on our strikers wasn't easily available, what exactly do you mean?

Also, the official line has been that Levy won't jeopardise the future of the club, to sign that "extra player"
Tribal football with Guardian quotes


EDIT: also, what will our net debt jump to with the NDP development vs stratford? and what will the interest payments be? It isn't going to be Joe Lewis that bankrolls it, that will be on the clubs back.

what will the resulting interest repayments be?


I'm not looking for specific figures, just consideration that they will be a lot higher under the NDP

 

[MattyP]

Im sure the recent protest will only galvanise Levy. Lets be honest it was piss poor. Not suprising when the majority of fans are happy to move if the price is right.

It was organised the Thursday before the game and did not involve WeareN17.

I can assure you there are a hell of a lot more people opposed to the move than protested at the main gates on Sunday.

If WeareN17 organise a protest, the turnout will be in the thousands.

 

[SpurSince57]

Maybe you should check out some United forums to see what their supporters think of the Glazers; it's also pretty clear that Abramovic isn't splashing the cash the way he did when he first bought in.

I meant, a major upgrade on our current strikers wasn't easily available last summer.

That isn't quite what Levy said. Read it again.

I have no idea what our net debt will jump to if we go ahead with the NPD project, just as I have no idea what it will jump to if we go to Stratford. I happily assumed, along with almost everyone else, that Levy had costed out the scheme and decided that it wouldn't damage Spurs' ability to compete. You were of that belief, I take it? Yet now it seems to be 'NPD bad medicine, heap no good, killum dead.'

 

[spursphil]

Maybe Politics is playing a bigger part in our bid for stratford then first thought. An interesting post i found on another forum.

So, there we were quite happily bouncing along, champions league place secured, stunning new kit for the forthcoming season, new sponsors, an intriguing new signing named after a ninja turtle, a new stadium designed and waiting for the builders to show up, everything looked on the up for the love of our lives. There were some annoying whispers that the club might have to look at an alternative to the plans of the iconic new stadium but nothing that anyone was taking seriously because ‘Spurs would never move from Tottenham’.

Pop, the secure bubble burst when Daniel Levy announced he was serious that the club were interested in the move to Stratford as it may be ‘in the best interest of the club’. Surely not, Tottenham out of Tottenham ? What was he on about ? Silly Daniel. He also said if the club did move into the Olympic stadium then they would definitely rip up the running track even though the Olympic committee stated that preference would be given to the bidder that kept it. Then the committee announced (moved the goalposts) the preferred bidder would ‘make a legacy for athletics at the new stadium’, quick as a flash Daniel announces he would not only rip up the track but knock down the whole stadium, build it from scratch to the spec of the new plans we already had and take athletics out of it altogether. Now, although these revelations sent many a Spurs fan into rage at the chairman making plans to leave Tottenham it made me wonder what someone had spiked his coco pops with.

Here was a man who, although ridiculed for his mild manner and quiet nature, was nonetheless pretty handy when it came to running a business, making profits and giving the club what it wants on the pitch, the man had style in a balanced and shrewd manner, yet here he was telling a committee holding the keys to a new home that he would do exactly the opposite of what they wanted, TWICE. Now are they the actions of a man looking to get given a stadium by a committee, get his hands on a cheaper option to get gold stars from the shareholders and make a pile of cash or are they a mild mannered form of a protest against being MADE to make the decision because his plans are blocked for building the new stadium in N17 by a government refusing to help redevelop the area and transport facilities ?

The Labour groovey gang when in power splashed the cash about like a teenager with his first credit card and got in all kinds of debt, in order to secure the Olympics 2012 they designed and put into construction the Olympic Stadium, transport routes and facilities and it paid off. However during the launch of the Northumberland Project, Lammy and his spewing garbage gob were nowhere to be seen to support the area and get the planning permissions in place until he saw an opportunity to raise his profile after being caught fiddling expenses on a 2nd home in Tottenham. They also helped the likes of Woolwich and Wembley with public funding to improve roads, access and parking around their new stadiums. Then they lost the election and the coalition were left with the bill and a recession to sort out. Obviously they are going to look at cutting costs wherever they can. So when Daniel goes skipping into Westminster with his cap out for funding to help with the new WHL they say ‘Hang on a minute, we’ve already splashed out on a similar stadium less than 5 miles away, why don’t you have that instead ?’ . . . ‘No thanks’ says Daniel. ‘We’ve got our plans and we are just after the money and redevelopment everyone else got for our own area’. ‘Fuck that’ says the governmentl.’250 million is a bit much after the we’ve already done it 3 times, You go into the empty one after the Olympics or we will block you at every turn if you continue with your N17 plans’.

A shell shocked Daniel then has to make a move in order to secure the future of Tottenham Hotspur, does he kiss their asses and agree to a move ? does he take them on head first and go on with the original plans, build the new stadium surrounded by a run-down area and risk all kinds of hassle because the roads get blocked, trains are over crowded and no one can park at the new stadium ? . . . NO, he plays his poker hand. . . ‘Ok, you want to make me move to E15 ? We will rip up your track, shit on your athletics and kick it out of the stadium altogether and heres a few quid to regenerate Crystal Palace you tight wad bastards !!!’

Add to that the fact that since this has all started Spurs have bought up land, changed plans to suit Haringey council, and applied for a section 106 which the government seem to be delaying accepting and all in all l feel the club are battling to stay in N17 rather than sell up and move.
I may be wrong but that is the only reasoning l can see by Daniel saying what he has said but iv’e put it in layman’s terms so everyone can see the thinking behind the madness.
For the record, although a part of me will be gutted if we are forced to move, I will always be a Yid and will continue to support Hotspur FC, Stratford Hotspur or whatever they are called after the event because its the team l have supported all my life and my loyalty is to them til the day l die. To the Yids that say they wont support them if they move, although l understand the emotion of losing our history l for one will never support anyone else.

 

[SpurSince57]

This semi-literate shite is interesting in what way?

 

[stevenqoz]

I think there is a decent TV mini-series waiting to be produced from this saga.

 

[MattyP]

I think there is a decent TV mini-series waiting to be produced from this saga.

Eastenders :shrug:

 

[roosh]

Maybe you should check out some United forums to see what their supporters think of the Glazers; it's also pretty clear that Abramovic isn't splashing the cash the way he did when he first bought in.

what the united fans think of the Glazers is irrelevant to what their financial position is, although their perception of them may have improved since they decided to repay a large chunk of the contentious debt, from their own privately arranged finances.

It is clear that Abramovic isn't splashing the cash like he used to, but he still has the cash there should he decide to inject it, and converting massive debt into equity, in a club he owns, is just one of the ways he can help them financially.

I meant, a major upgrade on our current strikers wasn't easily available last summer.

Our ability to pay a large transfer fee and our ability to offer competetive wages were played a significant part in making it that much more difficult

That isn't quite what Levy said. Read it again.

He [Daniel Levy] explained: "Often people say you just need an extra player. It doesn't work. It's about the team. I like to think it's important to run the club in the right way

To be taken in the context of his earlier comment

"But what we won't do is jeopardise the club to challenge to be one of those two. You can't run the club on the basis of being in the Champions League."

I have no idea what our net debt will jump to if we go ahead with the NPD project, just as I have no idea what it will jump to if we go to Stratford.

No one really does know the exact figures, except for, perhaps a number of spurs executives. What we can do though, is discuss the possibility that the NDP will saddle us with double the level of debt that stratford would, based on the figures that we have available to us. This would not be an inconsiderable amount, given that it could amount to almost the cost of two football stadia.

The question is, if the figures are accurate, would you be happy to see the club saddled with that extra debt, and potentially reduced revenues to service that debt - given the comments above about the Glazers - just to remain where we are?

Of course, if the figures are not accurate, and there isn't that much of a difference, then there is no argument from pretty much any other spurs fan.

But if they are, is it worth that much to stay where we are, given that it could adversely affect our future prospects.

I happily assumed, along with almost everyone else, that Levy had costed out the scheme and decided that it wouldn't damage Spurs' ability to compete. You were of that belief, I take it? Yet now it seems to be 'NPD bad medicine, heap no good, killum dead.'

The issue is, that we require a bigger stadium to compete. NDP was the only game in town, and with respect to the alternative - no stadium development - it was the winner.

However, a second option became available, that potentially could be a lot more cost effective than NDP, as well as potentially offering an improved revenue base, with a quarter of the hassle and almost none of the non-core extras.

Basically, we only had one option, so it had to suffice. Then we came across a potential second option, that could potentially make a lot more financial sense - which, in the current environment, means that it makes a lot more footballing sense too.



Again, however, the figures might be inaccurate. Stratford may not be that much more attractive an option, but if it is, is it worth potentially holding the club back.

It really is a question of sentimentality at what cost?

 

[spursphil]

This semi-literate shite is interesting in what way?

And throwing breeze blocks through the windows of cars is the actions of the literate?
If Spurs move to Stratford, the residents of Tottenham won't have to put up with those nasty spurs fans parking in their streets.

The Harin-gay islamist vegan lesbian single mothers association might be a tad worried about their future funding.
All the pubs will close of course, that wouldn't affect Lammy to much, there is some decent boozers near his second home in south london. Or he could always pop into the subsidized House of Commons bar for a drink with Red Ken and the other Champagne Socialists.

 

[jimmyn16]

spursphil,

I know Lammy is public enemy number one in this forum but, in my opinion, the reference to him in the fifth paragraph of your last but one post is almost certainly libellous. You might want to edit it out.

 

[andyw362]

Maybe Politics is playing a bigger part in our bid for stratford then first thought. An interesting post i found on another forum.

So, there we were quite happily bouncing along, champions league place secured, stunning new kit for the forthcoming season, new sponsors, an intriguing new signing named after a ninja turtle, a new stadium designed and waiting for the builders to show up, everything looked on the up for the love of our lives. There were some annoying whispers that the club might have to look at an alternative to the plans of the iconic new stadium but nothing that anyone was taking seriously because ‘Spurs would never move from Tottenham’.

Pop, the secure bubble burst when Daniel Levy announced he was serious that the club were interested in the move to Stratford as it may be ‘in the best interest of the club’. Surely not, Tottenham out of Tottenham ? What was he on about ? Silly Daniel. He also said if the club did move into the Olympic stadium then they would definitely rip up the running track even though the Olympic committee stated that preference would be given to the bidder that kept it. Then the committee announced (moved the goalposts) the preferred bidder would ‘make a legacy for athletics at the new stadium’, quick as a flash Daniel announces he would not only rip up the track but knock down the whole stadium, build it from scratch to the spec of the new plans we already had and take athletics out of it altogether. Now, although these revelations sent many a Spurs fan into rage at the chairman making plans to leave Tottenham it made me wonder what someone had spiked his coco pops with.

Here was a man who, although ridiculed for his mild manner and quiet nature, was nonetheless pretty handy when it came to running a business, making profits and giving the club what it wants on the pitch, the man had style in a balanced and shrewd manner, yet here he was telling a committee holding the keys to a new home that he would do exactly the opposite of what they wanted, TWICE. Now are they the actions of a man looking to get given a stadium by a committee, get his hands on a cheaper option to get gold stars from the shareholders and make a pile of cash or are they a mild mannered form of a protest against being MADE to make the decision because his plans are blocked for building the new stadium in N17 by a government refusing to help redevelop the area and transport facilities ?

The Labour groovey gang when in power splashed the cash about like a teenager with his first credit card and got in all kinds of debt, in order to secure the Olympics 2012 they designed and put into construction the Olympic Stadium, transport routes and facilities and it paid off. However during the launch of the Northumberland Project, Lammy and his spewing garbage gob were nowhere to be seen to support the area and get the planning permissions in place until he saw an opportunity to raise his profile after being caught fiddling expenses on a 2nd home in Tottenham. They also helped the likes of Woolwich and Wembley with public funding to improve roads, access and parking around their new stadiums. Then they lost the election and the coalition were left with the bill and a recession to sort out. Obviously they are going to look at cutting costs wherever they can. So when Daniel goes skipping into Westminster with his cap out for funding to help with the new WHL they say ‘Hang on a minute, we’ve already splashed out on a similar stadium less than 5 miles away, why don’t you have that instead ?’ . . . ‘No thanks’ says Daniel. ‘We’ve got our plans and we are just after the money and redevelopment everyone else got for our own area’. ‘Fuck that’ says the governmentl.’250 million is a bit much after the we’ve already done it 3 times, You go into the empty one after the Olympics or we will block you at every turn if you continue with your N17 plans’.

A shell shocked Daniel then has to make a move in order to secure the future of Tottenham Hotspur, does he kiss their asses and agree to a move ? does he take them on head first and go on with the original plans, build the new stadium surrounded by a run-down area and risk all kinds of hassle because the roads get blocked, trains are over crowded and no one can park at the new stadium ? . . . NO, he plays his poker hand. . . ‘Ok, you want to make me move to E15 ? We will rip up your track, shit on your athletics and kick it out of the stadium altogether and heres a few quid to regenerate Crystal Palace you tight wad bastards !!!’

Add to that the fact that since this has all started Spurs have bought up land, changed plans to suit Haringey council, and applied for a section 106 which the government seem to be delaying accepting and all in all l feel the club are battling to stay in N17 rather than sell up and move.
I may be wrong but that is the only reasoning l can see by Daniel saying what he has said but iv’e put it in layman’s terms so everyone can see the thinking behind the madness.
For the record, although a part of me will be gutted if we are forced to move, I will always be a Yid and will continue to support Hotspur FC, Stratford Hotspur or whatever they are called after the event because its the team l have supported all my life and my loyalty is to them til the day l die. To the Yids that say they wont support them if they move, although l understand the emotion of losing our history l for one will never support anyone else.

Good post. But I think its mutually beneficial for both parties.

 

[spursphil]

spursphil,

I know Lammy is public enemy number one in this forum but, in my opinion, the reference to him in the fifth paragraph of your last but one post is almost certainly libellous. You might want to edit it out.

Jimmy, thanks for that, if you read the first line again you will see that i never wrote the article. Thanks for the tip though.

 

[jimmyn16]

Spursphil,

I know you didn't write it but SC could still get sued for publishing it.

But maybe the mods have seen it and are happy with it?

 

[SpurSince57]

Good post. But I think its mutually beneficial for both parties.

No, it isn't.

 

[SpurSince57]

Jimmy, thanks for that, if you read the first line again you will see that i never wrote the article. Thanks for the tip though.

So we can add the law of libel to the ever-lengthening list of things you know absolutely nothing about?

 

[talkshowhost86]

Easy SS57. Spursphil may not agree with you but lets not turn it into a 'I know more than you' contest.

 

[SpurSince57]

The post he quoted is, however, potentially libellous (I've just reported it for that reason, not because it's hysterical claptrap), and ignorance of the law is no defence. And not only does this idiot (the author, not phil) make seriously defamatory accusations against Lammy, he makes Levy sound a complete arse as well. Really intelligent stuff.

 

[Samson]

The notion that the Government would block the NDP to force us to Stratford is nonsense, and probably impossible. It's obvious that senior people in Government/the Mayor's Office encouraged the club to bid for Stratford, presumably because they don't like the look of the West Ham bid (and neither did AEG, who have a lot of cache post-dome). It's fair to say that the club have run the figures, and agreed to go for it, on the basis of our requirements being met, i.e. taking the site and not much else (as has been pointed out elsewhere, 35 million of committed funding that would be spent at Stratford under West Ham's proposal goes to Crystal Palace under ours). This gives the Government a fairly straight choice between a legacy bid and a bid that gets the Government off paying for a legacy. My guess is that their instincts go for the latter, but the PR hit will be big. We will see. But as for blocking the NDP? No.

What is also a myth is the idea that Haringey or English Heritage have been exceptionally obstructive. They haven't, thought the scheme has clearly become less profitable as time goes on, and with tighter margins, becomes harder to justify and fund. You can question whether, in an area like Tottenham, the approach taken by TfL and EH is appropriate, but it's not unusual.

What we don't know is whether Stratford is simply too good an opportunity to miss from ENIC's point of view (and from the point of view of growing revenue at lowest cost), and/or whether the NDP is unworkable- it involves borrowing a huge sum of money in tight times. If the PLC are quite comfortable moving to Stratford to hook a buyer, they are quite capable of pursuing the NDP in the hope of finding one that way, even if they know it's not going to happen without outside investment.