The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 18 May 2011

[ItsBoris]

Instead of buying Rio and paying huge wages, we should try and sign Phil Jones and then we have a potentially excellent partnership for the future, Jones and Caulker.

 

[Viva la Tottenham]

Beckham, in 8 seasons since leaving Utd, has had one good half season for Madrid. Anything greater than that being claimed is merely the Beckham spin machine.

RVN I'll give you, but he was far younger than Ferdinand is when Fergie shifted him and he's still had the most awful injury problems since leaving anyway, however good he might have been when fit at Madrid.

Beckham was still a quality player when he left manure, he wouldn't of made over 150 appearances in 4 seasons for Real Madrid if he wasn't

pretty much agree with you though most of the time Fergie doesn't shift players unless they're on a steady decline and CB isn't really a position we need to waste much time upgrading especially with the state of our striker department

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I'm not going to get into the age old Beckham discussion because this is not the place, and you said you agree with my point anyway so that's enough for me, but he really was dross. Barca would've been in hysterics by the end of it for missing out on him and ending up with their second choice Ronaldinho.

 

[punky]

Where have I said let's replace all of our players with old players? Where has Harry said that? Parker and Ferdinand would improve us, so would Drogba. I'd take them all if they improve us. It wouldn't mean we'd lose all of our young players.



I'm not grasping at anything, just saying I'd be happy for us to sign anyone that improves us. I want us to be successful. If that means signing Parker and Ferdinand then fine, if it means signing some unknown youngsters, then fine, if it's players from on the continent, then fine. If it's a mix, that's fine. I don't care who the players are if they improve us.

I could understand some of the attitudes when Distin was linked, or if we did heaven forbid, sign Carlton Cole like people joke, but Rio Ferdinand is still one of the best centre backs in the league! It's laughable that firstly, people are saying they wouldn't want him, I can understand reservations about his fitness, but if he was fit enough, it's a no brainer. Secondly, that some ITK saying Harry wants Rio is somehow a negative thing on Harry. I'm not specifically saying you, though it has seemed like you are anti-Harry, but how is Harry wanting to improve the team a bad thing?

Ferdinand is an excellent defender and if he comes to us, gives us 10-15+ more clean sheets then everything's fine. However if he comes over, get's injured then we've paid out a transfer fee + massive wages for X years + image rights payments, shirt sale payments and who knows what else then the club has spunked a serious wad of cash it won't see again.

And Ferdinand isn't the odd one out. Distin, Neville, Parker, Bellamy, etc, etc.

Harry has said he wants experienced players, all he talks about is buying experienced players. Regardless of what you, I or Brett thinks about it, that is his policy and the club will rise or fall with it.

 

[brett.spurs]

Where have I said let's replace all of our players with old players? Where has Harry said that? Parker and Ferdinand would improve us, so would Drogba. I'd take them all if they improve us. It wouldn't mean we'd lose all of our young players.

You just said age doesn't matter if they're better than what we have! Look I'm not going over this another 75 times, just look at what signing Gallas has done to Bassong, then apply that logic to the rest of the 30+ers you and Harry are happy to stack the club with. You sign Neville and Ferdinand then Walker and Kaboul won't stick around, 3 years time we're left with no one and 2 positions to fill but alas we've pumped all of our money into their pockets.

 

[nicdic]

Drogba is still a world class striker and he has a good fitness record, he has struggled this season but that is because of malaria which is a very demanding illness, next season he will be top notch again.

The main reason I don't want Ferdinand is his fitness record over the last 2 seasons and with his age that won't get any better, I don't see a massive case for needing a new CB but if we get one we should get someone at the top of his game who can put in a few years someone like Cahill not a man approaching his mid 30's who has hardly kicked a ball in anger the last 2 years.

30 appearances in all competitions this season, 26 the year before. He's had injuries but still got in a fair amount of games. If we could keep him for the league and get that many games out of him that'd be great! As for Cahill, not sure he's better than Gallas or Dawson, and Kaboul could be better than him too. Whereas Ferdinand is a clear improvement.

 

[Viva la Tottenham]

No way was Pique getting infront of the best CB partership in European football, and J.Evans was seen at that time as a better prospect.....

boy how times have changed lol

 

[faze_coys]

So gallas came in last season...

is he a better defender than bassong?

bassong has been pushed back to 5th choice CB this season, and had less game time than he actually deserves, now at the age of 24, he wants to leave.

have we actually performed better defensively with gallas and dawson than with dawson and bassong?

i know my answers to all these question.

buying an older, better player on paper isnt always the best move to make. (and im not saying we shouldnt have bought gallas)

 

[Viva la Tottenham]

I'm not going to get into the age old Beckham discussion because this is not the place, and you said you agree with my point anyway so that's enough for me, but he really was dross. Barca would've been in hysterics by the end of it for missing out on him and ending up with their second choice Ronaldinho.

Beckham was never going to be as good as Ronnie who by all accounts was the best player in the world for a good 2 or 3 seasons but to say he was dross is well wide of the mark

 

[Matt C]

You just said age doesn't matter if they're better than what we have! Look I'm not going over this another 75 times, just look at what signing Gallas has done to Bassong, then apply that logic to the rest of the 30+ers you and Harry are happy to stack the club with. You sign Neville and Ferdinand then Walker and Kaboul won't stick around, 3 years time we're left with no one and 2 positions to fill but alas we've pumped all of our money into their pockets.

Gallas was worth getting as we needed player with CL experience and without Gallas we probably wouldn't have got as far as we did but next season we will be having games against the likes of Rapid Vienna, Widsev Lotz and Espanyol not AC, Real, Inter so there is less need IMHO of another Gallas type player. We need quality on the field to get us back in the CL so would rather see the money Rio would eat up in wages and other fees spent in other areas.

 

[LukaMotion]

No way was Pique getting infront of the best CB partership in European football, and J.Evans was seen at that time as a better prospect.....

Still shows that SAF can make the mistake of selling players to soon as well. If ferdinand goes now it's because fergie wants to move on with smalling and vidic the main partnership, however i think rio can have a good 2-3 seasons of top football still, and there's no doubting his class.

Fergie sold Stam to soon, he went on to have a good few years. He didn't want to keep Tevez, he's still top quality. Phil Neville, who we are linked with, was allowed to leave, and he's been a mainstay for Everton since.

Personally i'm with nic, if we can get Rio, on wages in line with our top players, i think it would be a good move.

In all likelyhood, Woodgate is off, Bassong is off, King will be limited to 5-10 games again next season and Gallas is injury prone.

That leaves Daws and Kaboul as dependable, as Caulker should probably go on loan to a prem club next season and gain some experience.

 

[nicdic]

Ferdinand is an excellent defender and if he comes to us, gives us 10-15+ more clean sheets then everything's fine. However if he comes over, get's injured then we've paid out a transfer fee + massive wages for X years + image rights payments, shirt sale payments and who knows what else then the club has spunked a serious wad of cash it won't see again.

And Ferdinand isn't the odd one out. Distin, Neville, Parker, Bellamy, etc, etc.

Harry has said he wants experienced players, all he talks about is buying experienced players. Regardless of what you, I or Brett thinks about it, that is his policy and the club will rise or fall with it.

He doesn't just talk about signing experienced players, but because it frustrates you it's making a bigger impact when you read it. He's said he likes other players, and when has he ever just signed old experienced players? He certainly hasn't done that with us.

You just said age doesn't matter if they're better than what we have! Look I'm not going over this another 75 times, just look at what signing Gallas has done to Bassong, then apply that logic to the rest of the 30+ers you and Harry are happy to stack the club with. You sign Neville and Ferdinand then Walker and Kaboul won't stick around, 3 years time we're left with no one and 2 positions to fill but alas we've pumped all of our money into their pockets.

I don't think Neville is better than what we have, so I wouldn't sign him. I think Ferdinand is, so maybe would depending on fitness. If a 30 year old is a better player than what we've currently got and can do a job why not? It doesn't mean we'll sell everybody else though. You're being ridiculous.

 

[sunnydelight786]

Still shows that SAF can make the mistake of selling players to soon as well. If ferdinand goes now it's because fergie wants to move on with smalling and vidic the main partnership, however i think rio can have a good 2-3 seasons of top football still, and there's no doubting his class.

Fergie sold Stam to soon, he went on to have a good few years. He didn't want to keep Tevez, he's still top quality. Phil Neville, who we are linked with, was allowed to leave, and he's been a mainstay for Everton since.

Personally i'm with nic, if we can get Rio, on wages in line with our top players, i think it would be a good move.

In all likelyhood, Woodgate is off, Bassong is off, King will be limited to 5-10 games again next season and Gallas is injury prone.

That leaves Daws and Kaboul as dependable, as Caulker should probably go on loan to a prem club next season and gain some experience.

Pique, like Bassong, did not want to hang around and had a desire to go back to his home town club. Besides Utd have really missed him have'nt they as they have only won 2 of the 3 PL titles since he has left and reached 2 of the 3 Champions League finals...

 

[StartingPrice]

When I have ever say I had a problem with it? And it was always clear that Sherwood worked with the academy.

However if Redknapp delegates buying youngsters to Sherwood and Sherwood effs-up then it is still Redknapp's responsibility.

I dunno, this thread (and its inanities) had been going on so long my head hurts

I know, I said i another thread, earlier today, the buck always stops with the manager. I have no problem with that. I just think, at this precise moment, some folk are making absolute montains out of absolute mole-hills, based primarily on conjecture, supposition, an inflation of our disappointing end to the season into some kinda World catastrophe, wishful thinking, grudges, and some mad kinda heightened expectation where folk actually believe we are now better than barca and should be performing as such.

p.s. for what it is worth, I agree with BBLG and Brett in regard to the Ferdinand issue.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Stam, live RVN, was sold because of a fall out. Do you not remember the fuss over Stams book?

And Fergie did want to keep Tevez, and stated as much, but Tevez barely played and didn't want to stay after seeing Berba usurp him despite not playing that well after Tevez previous magnificent season, and the Glazers refused to shell out 30m a year after spending it on Berba.

 

[LukaMotion]

Pique, like Bassong, did not want to hang around and had a desire to go back to his home town club. Besides Utd have really missed him have'nt they as they have only won 2 of the 3 PL titles since he has left and reached 2 of the 3 Champions League finals...

Yeah it was definitely a good decision to let him go for £5 million quid, so he could go win the Copa Del Rey, La Liga, and Champions league (against Man U!!) in his first season at Barca. And what has he done since then? only add more trophy's to his cabinet and win the World Cup with Spain, not a lot really...

 

[LukaMotion]

Stam, live RVN, was sold because of a fall out. Do you not remember the fuss over Stams book?

And Fergie did want to keep Tevez, and stated as much, but Tevez barely played and didn't want to stay after seeing Berba usurp him despite not playing that well after Tevez previous magnificent season, and the Glazers refused to shell out 30m a year after spending it on Berba.

fair play on both of those, but i have my pique point and i'm keeping it. :razz:

 

[BringBack_leGin]

You are absolutely right with your Pique point and he would waltz into their defence now (though he does look shaky when without Puyol and has thus not had his best season), but I think that's an exception to the rule that generally, Fergie knows when it's time to go (don't anybody say Forlan, good though he is he's not as good as any first team striker they've had since selling him). By the same token, Gallas is an exception to the fact that Wenger knows when the end of a players peak has been reached, as none of Henry, Vieira, Campbell, Petit, Overmars, A.Cole have ever been as good, while the likes of Bentley, Upson and Larsson have clearly never been good enough for them since they've left.

Rule of thumb, if a player is rejected by Fergie or Wenger, don't sign them.

 

[sunnydelight786]

fair play on both of those, but i have my pique point and i'm keeping it. :razz:

:grin: I do maintain that he was NO WAY getting ahead of Rio and Vidic when everyone was fit.....

 

[brett.spurs]

You are absolutely right with your Pique point and he would waltz into their defence now (though he does look shaky when without Puyol and has thus not had his best season), but I think that's an exception to the rule that generally, Fergie knows when it's time to go (don't anybody say Forlan, good though he is he's not as good as any first team striker they've had since selling him). By the same token, Gallas is an exception to the fact that Wenger knows when the end of a players peak has been reached, as none of Henry, Vieira, Campbell, Petit, Overmars, A.Cole have ever been as good, while the likes of Bentley, Upson and Larsson have clearly never been good enough for them since they've left.

Rule of thumb, if a player is rejected by Fergie or Wenger, don't sign them.

Can I claim Rossi?