The England Thread

[Adamspurs]

It would be a great help but I can't help but feel that England will struggle in the heat.

People are almost ruling out Costa Rica already but I can see them picking up a couple of draws.

England NEED to beat Italy to stand a chance, as IMO only one European team will make it out of the group - if that.

Not a terrible prediction.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

I think England deserve a lot of credit for playing the group winner to a draw.

 

[Spurger King]

Lol

 

[jondesouza]

It's a conundrum in as much as pretty soon there will be a clamour to include Barkley, which if you are also going to try and accommodate Lallana and Sterling means a 4231, but the big problem England have is a shortage of quality CM's/BC's that could play in a CM2 proficiently. Someone like Paul Ince.

Cork's a good call, I haven't seen enough of him to be sure, but on the occasions I did see him he went about his job with a quiet efficiency. I also quite liked Ward-Prowse whenever I've seen him, again, nothing spectacular just good industry and tidy with the ball, which if you are top loading with creatives is a good skilset to balance them off with. Like Holland with their CM pairing for example.

But that is what is sometimes needed, not an uber twat like Gerrard careering round trying to hit 50 yarders everywhere, but a couple of efficient, tidy, ball winning, water carriers for the more creative types ahead of them.

Totally agree with you on the type of DM/BC that we need - and I think we need one of them in every line up. Maybe two sometimes. I like Cork for the very reasons you describe. Ward-Prowse can play that role too but has actually been used out on the right last season as well. There is a real lack of strength for us with that position though. After the two Southampton players you're in to people like Lee Cattermole or Ashley Westwood (unless Jake Livermore does become an out and out DM). The issue, I suppose, is that whatever formation you think is best for England, you have to think that a DM/BC is necessary - I just don't think we're defensively strong enough without one.

I don't see Cleverley as a DM by the way - more of a box-to-box type. You can play one or two b2b mids in a 4-3-3 or one of them in a traditional 4-4-2 but there's just no place for them in a 4-2-3-1. And if you're going for a b2b player, Cleverley would be somewhere below Wilshere, Delph and Henderson (and you and possibly even me) in the pecking order.

You're right about Barkley and 4-3-3. And obviously there's Rooney as well. As far as I'm concerned if there's no number 10 there's no Rooney. And even if there is it's a straight choice between Rooney and Barkley.

 

[Spursidol]

I think in terms of the bigger picture we are going the right but not because of the FA and Roy Hodgeson but because of the clubs changing their mentality.

Look at our academy its still in its early stages but it has done very well considering a couple years back the best we had produced was Jamie O'Hara.

I personally didnt like the way Pearce ran the U21's(Im sure @Spursidol agrees) as I thought he was from the stone ages and his player selection would be ringing the big clubs and asking who their best players in their reserve teams instead of looking at good players in the championship/league 1.

Lallana is 26 and never got a look in to the U21's(1 appearance) yet in the england team now looks like one of their more technically gifted and intelligent players.

We also love our defensive coaches like Sven, Capello and Roy. All of them doing their best work in Italy around the 90's. Roy not got a great history of youth development and was heavily criticised by the inter fans for saying a certain Brazilian LB would never be good enough to play LB in Europe(Roberto Carlos).

Steve Mclaren took the job too early imo and didnt qualify for the Euros but he was in a qualifying with perhaps should of been two semifinalists of the Euros that year. I like steve, just because he has taken a very young squad at derby who would be over the moon to finish the top half and got them playing some beautiful football(the best I saw all season tbh) and got them finishing 3rd and were extremely unlucky to lose against Harry who was lucky.

Of course only england expect Roy to play good progressive football when he has no history of ever doing it.

I'd agree that Pearce was a big backward step as an appoointment, even more so when he replaced Peter Taylor who didn't seem to make it as a club coach but was a great u21 coach - and even produced some excellent results. I'm yet to be convinced by Southgate's appointment either - but its still early and I could change my mind.

As @beats1 has said the Spurs acdemy is now starting to produce good players (including a good number of Enmglish players) but as we know getting them through the 18 -21 group and into the first team has been a real problem - Redknapp gave many of the youngsters a break by playing in EL (but as much beccause he didn't like the distraction from PL) but tended to play too many at once meaning they couldn't learn from more experienced players, AVB seemed allergic to the youngsters although deserves a little credit for playing Fryers (although perhaps that's because there was not much choice) whilst Sherwood was clearly the best in playing youth, albeit an Algerian was his favourite with Kane also a beneficiary.

Looking at clubs such as ManCity and Chelsea they have lots of good youth players - but their record of bringing them through is even worse than Spurs.

Rogers has brought a number through at Liverpool - but that's at least partly because his main squad was small in number and outside the first 11, not great, so the kids did get a chance, and the likes of Sturridge (who felt overlooked at both Man City and Chelsea), Sterling and a few others flourished. Everton have struggled for years financially so their squad tends not to be large and again allows the youth to come through - notably currently Barkley, and other aluminai inclkuding Rooney.

There is a lesson here, and that is rather than having a squad of 25 players with some relatively rarely playing, have a squad of say 20/21/22 players backed up by players who have come through the ranks but not yet fully in the first team squad - in Spurs case thart might include Fryers, Pritchard, Bentaleb, Kane, Fredericks, Veljkovic and a number of others. I doubt iof we would miss noit having a 25 man squad with thise youngsters, but it would ensure we got a number of youngsters through into the first team, benefitting the club.

If more English clubs who have good academies could do that then the number of technically good English players would rise. However that means ensuring the likes of ManCity/Chelsea either stop bagging good English talent or playing them.

Its then up to the FA to find good coaches to bring them through for the national side. It maybe good news that the Noel Blake has left the England u18/u19/u20 set up as they have the opportunity to find a good coach at that level. It maybe that they need to look again at the u21 set up.

I'd hope that the likes of Glenn Hoddle and Peter Taylor might be involved in selecting those coaches as they are probably two of the few who have worked at the top of the FA with the knowledge of what it takes. There may be better options to advise the FA - but there are not any better in the FA to do the selection.

So its a long road - both to promote and get the youngsters through and to get the best youth coaches - and a successor for Woy in due course

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Totally agree with you on the type of DM/BC that we need - and I think we need one of them in every line up. Maybe two sometimes. I like Cork for the very reasons you describe. Ward-Prowse can play that role too but has actually been used out on the right last season as well. There is a real lack of strength for us with that position though. After the two Southampton players you're in to people like Lee Cattermole or Ashley Westwood (unless Jake Livermore does become an out and out DM). The issue, I suppose, is that whatever formation you think is best for England, you have to think that a DM/BC is necessary - I just don't think we're defensively strong enough without one.

I don't see Cleverley as a DM by the way - more of a box-to-box type. You can play one or two b2b mids in a 4-3-3 or one of them in a traditional 4-4-2 but there's just no place for them in a 4-2-3-1. And if you're going for a b2b player, Cleverley would be somewhere below Wilshere, Delph and Henderson (and you and possibly even me) in the pecking order.

You're right about Barkley and 4-3-3. And obviously there's Rooney as well. As far as I'm concerned if there's no number 10 there's no Rooney. And even if there is it's a straight choice between Rooney and Barkley.

You know, I think Rooney isn't really a No.10 and I seriously wonder whether Barkley will have the composure to be a proper one either. I think if he was Spanish or Italian they'd be steering him toward a wide striker type role.

I can understand why both might get placed there, anyone who shows above (the incredibly low) average technique gets automatically labelled special in England.

 

[DJS]

I'm surprised Woy kept starting Henderson over Wiltshere.

Obviously Wiltshire is a **** but he should definitely be a first choice starter *washes mouth out*.

Henderson is definitely not anything special.

Only twigged today about Wiltshere lol, shows how meh I am about England at mo.

 

[DogsOfWar]

Tonight summed it up perfectly for me.
I couldn't understand why lampard and milner played in the first place and they did nothing to convince me otherwise.
Our two best players were lallana and wilshere who were the first to be subbed.
We bought on sterling who should surely have replaced milner but didn't.
We bought on gerrard who should have replaced lampard but didn't.
We bought on rooney who should have replaced sturridge (rooney is not a no.10) but didn't.

After the subs costa rica just kept the ball and finished us off, instead of helping us to step up a gear we went down one.

It was the clusterf@@k to end all clusterf@@ks.

Shark sandwich were lallana, wilshere, barkley, sturridge and shaw. Shit sandwich were lampard and milner who should have stayed on the bench for henderson and sterling.

Please roy, retire gerrard, lampard, milner, jagielka and stick with the youngsters, and if you are going to play rooney put him up front where he can score goals and stop him from thinking he's a playmaker, he isn't.

 

[poc]

Just got back to the hotel from the game, fans were fucking awesome today what an atmosphere we created in there props to sturridge and shaw for coming to the crowd.
Now for another night in Belo drowning our sorrows with the brazillians.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

FA needs to blow up the system and start over. They should be embarrassed to go out after three games with only a draw, and only 2 goals in the highest scoring WC in decades. Instead, they think everything is going great.

Prandelli offers to resign before they even leave Brazil, Roy is probably looking for an extension.

 

[Spriggan]

I don't think anything will change until attitudes throughout the game do. There was no intensity, no hunger to control the game, and no desire to adapt to our opponents, in fact, and my apologies to Roger waters, it seemed like "playing on in quiet desperation, is the English way". Very saddened by how disenfranchised we've allowed ourselves to become in the global game. Sadness

 

[zzz]

I watched the u19's World Cup when Blake was in charge. He had parrett and bostock bossing the midfield but every players instruction was hoof the ball up the pitch and let one of our two fastest forwards try and catch it. Didn't matter that both had the touch of a Taoist and the technique of a Bassett hound. Criminal waste of talent all to play hoof ball. Would have worked if the forwards had buried one of the million chances that were created for them. Also had caulker in the team and he literally won every single ball defensive and offensive.

 

[jondesouza]

I watched the u19's World Cup when Blake was in charge. He had parrett and bostock bossing the midfield but every players instruction was hoof the ball up the pitch and let one of our two fastest forwards try and catch it. Didn't matter that both had the touch of a Taoist and the technique of a Bassett hound. Criminal waste of talent all to play hoof ball. Would have worked if the forwards had buried one of the million chances that were created for them. Also had caulker in the team and he literally won every single ball defensive and offensive.

Bloody Taoists, and their doctrine of simplicity.

 

[mpickard2087]

Del Bosque willing to go. Italy manager has taken responsibility for underachievement and gone. Likewise, Ivory Coast manager has fallen on his sword.

Woy stumbles on though, farcical.

 

[jondesouza]

Del Bosque willing to go. Italy manager has taken responsibility for underachievement and gone. Likewise, Ivory Coast manager has fallen on his sword.

Woy stumbles on though, farcical.

If the FA Is committed to choosing an English manager, I honestly don't know who would be a realistic selection and would be better. Apart from me of course. I'd be excellent.

 

[mpickard2087]

If the FA Is committed to choosing an English manager, I honestly don't know who would be a realistic selection and would be better. Apart from me of course. I'd be excellent.

I think they are silly to stick to that, they need to accept that English coaches/coaching are way behind the times, particularly tactically.

Even if they do stick to the manager having to be English I'd rather they took a punt on anyone, even a complete unknown coach, all I know is that based on two years of evidence Woy isn't the man for the job.

 

[danielneeds]

Totally agree with you on the type of DM/BC that we need - and I think we need one of them in every line up. Maybe two sometimes. I like Cork for the very reasons you describe. Ward-Prowse can play that role too but has actually been used out on the right last season as well. There is a real lack of strength for us with that position though. After the two Southampton players you're in to people like Lee Cattermole or Ashley Westwood (unless Jake Livermore does become an out and out DM). The issue, I suppose, is that whatever formation you think is best for England, you have to think that a DM/BC is necessary - I just don't think we're defensively strong enough without one.

I don't see Cleverley as a DM by the way - more of a box-to-box type. You can play one or two b2b mids in a 4-3-3 or one of them in a traditional 4-4-2 but there's just no place for them in a 4-2-3-1. And if you're going for a b2b player, Cleverley would be somewhere below Wilshere, Delph and Henderson (and you and possibly even me) in the pecking order.

You're right about Barkley and 4-3-3. And obviously there's Rooney as well. As far as I'm concerned if there's no number 10 there's no Rooney. And even if there is it's a straight choice between Rooney and Barkley.

The massive problem with England is we've never had a manager that is strong to pick the best team rather than the best players. Maybe Capello was, Venables too, but he had all sorts of other problems. Even Stevie Wonder could see that England's centre backs were getting exposed against quality opposition, and we consistently struggle with getting outnumbered in midfield.

433 was a no-brainer, maybe even sticking in Phil Jones as purely destructive sitting player, with Wiltshere and Gerrard, enabling Gerrard a freer role to do his Hollywood shtick.

 

[jondesouza]

The massive problem with England is we've never had a manager that is strong to pick the best team rather than the best players. Maybe Capello was, Venables too, but he had all sorts of other problems. Even Stevie Wonder could see that England's centre backs were getting exposed against quality opposition, and we consistently struggle with getting outnumbered in midfield.

433 was a no-brainer, maybe even sticking in Phil Jones as purely destructive sitting player, with Wiltshere and Gerrard, enabling Gerrard a freer role to do his Hollywood shtick.

I think Hoddle tried to, to a certain extent. Capello seemed to a bit in qualifiers, as did Eriksson, but then they both got paralysed by fear when we actually made it to a tournament and reverted back to safety (i.e. pick the most famous/experienced players however out of form or unfit they are).

I still think there's a debate to be had over 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 and I still contend that we need a number 10 in our line-up, hence my preference for the latter. (Both formations include the defensive midfielder role that you're right we were crying out for). Don't get me wrong, if we went 4-3-3 and committed to that then it wouldn't be a disaster - I'm just not sure it's the best selection for us.

 

[danielneeds]

I think Hoddle tried to, to a certain extent. Capello seemed to a bit in qualifiers, as did Eriksson, but then they both got paralysed by fear when we actually made it to a tournament and reverted back to safety (i.e. pick the most famous/experienced players however out of form or unfit they are).

I still think there's a debate to be had over 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 and I still contend that we need a number 10 in our line-up, hence my preference for the latter. (Both formations include the defensive midfielder role that you're right we were crying out for). Don't get me wrong, if we went 4-3-3 and committed to that then it wouldn't be a disaster - I'm just not sure it's the best selection for us.

The problem is we clearly dont have any midfielders disciplined or intelligent enough to play the double pivot in a 4231, enabling us to play with a No 10. Playing a proper 3 in there in theory would give us more control and let the front 3 attack with more freedom.

 

[cookiemonster]

FA needs to blow up the system and start over. They should be embarrassed to go out after three games with only a draw, and only 2 goals in the highest scoring WC in decades. Instead, they think everything is going great.

Prandelli offers to resign before they even leave Brazil, Roy is probably looking for an extension.

Prandelli can afford to offer his resignation because he knows there will be job offers from top clubs for his services

Who is going to take the owl....30 years of managerial mediocrity

He's going to stay till the bitter end,spouting delusional bollocks and rubbing his face along the way