The Harry Effect

[SpurSince57]

Sorry, but that's tosh.

You really think Ramos was just a mercenary?

If you want to make that charge at a recent Spurs coach, I suggest you start with George Graham, and then think about 'Arry Redknapp.

Yes. This gun's for hire. And I include Redknapp too.

You would have really loved Keith Burkinshaw's first year stats then. By the way, Burkinshaw still has a worse win percentage in all competitions than Martin Jol who is eclipsed in turn by Doug Livermore & Ray Clemence.

Kind of puts your stat into perspective doesn't it.

I was there—whether you mean the season we went down or the first one back in the EPL. If the former, it's an unfair comparison, as KB took over a team that had been wrecked by Neill—who was a board choice as inspired as Ramos. Ramos' overall league stats are the all-time worst bar Ossie's. Liv and Clem's league stats, BTW, are worse than Jol's. Post-1951, which is all that really matters, only Rowe, Anderson, Nicholson, Pleat (in his first spell) and Shreeves (ditto) have a better record than Jol.

Ramos' overall win percentage with Spurs is roughly on a par with his decidedly modest pre-Sevilla La Liga record with Malaga, Rayo and Betis (best not mention Espanyol).

 

[Partizan]

"We played better under Ramos", "we played better under Redknapp".

They are both rubbish at Spurs, and if you people wanna bash Redknapp on the basis that he doesn't play rainbow football, then stop the moronic comparisons with Ramos. Both of them are shit, some of our players are unprofesional, and our boardroom staff has been totally inept in handling the sporting side of our club.

 

[Coyboy]

Coyboy

I'm not going to keep contesting every single point you make, it's futile but attempting to respond to thebroader point, I would say this:

Revealing but ok

My point way back when I started this thread was to say that under Ramos, I believed - just my opinion - that we were playing (at least trying) a certain
type of possession football. Circumstances such as the change of Personnel, voluntary and non voluntary, the drastic reduction in our striker quality, the odd error from Ramos, shit luck and players gelling or getting used to a new country etc, meant that whilst in results weren't going our way, we had the infrastructure, the regime, the manager and philosophy to ultimately take us closer to where we want to go.

Fairly put but it is all rather theoretical and irrelevant to what was happening on the pitch. The problem I had with out 'possession football' was that all it was was horizontal and not penetrative at all. Furthermore, there was no running off the ball, there were no risks taken with passes or one twos, there were seldom players even trying audacious long shots. It seemed the confidence had been shot and of equal importance, few players knew what they were supposed to do.

It was after the Wigan game that I came home and wondered why with the skillful passers in our team (Modric, Huddlestone, Bentley) and the quick skillful players (Lennon, Bale, Hutton, Dos Santos, Jenas, Zokora) and the quick and clinical (Pompey excepted) Darren Bent and Pav (just clinical) were weren't trying to encompass and execute a brand of football, as you call it, that took advantage of that.

I was fairly confident going into the season but by that game it became clear that something profound was not right. Whatever philosophy or tactical infrastructure Ramos was trying to construct, it had been stalled and was falling down.

My disapointment was three-fold. I felt, obviously that Ramos was certainly competant enough to get us back up the table (it only needed a couple of wins) and had proved that last year, and should have definately been given longer.

The difference between this and last year was multi fold though. There are no easy games, I can see Stoke at home even as a tough game-it was for Chelsea and Liverpool so will be for us. We have no Keane and Berbatov and of similar importance we have no fighters like TT and Malbranque. Add to that, the arguments I posed above and a swift launch up the table and a solid consolidation there was not going to be as easy as 'a couple of wins' since we had won none in the league thus far.

The second and even more disapointing thing for me is that having taken the decision to sack him, The whole system was scrapped (a system which had seen us sign better and better players, qualify for wurope three years running and win a trophy), from top to bottom and the DOF system binned when maybe what was required was a new DOF.

The point is though, and I am with you on the merits of the DoF, is that Rednapp wouldn't work with one and we needed a coach that would come in and save us from relegation. Levy pragmatically and in spite of himself chose this route. If we go down, it is a disaster and I will hold my hands up but the risks would have been huge if we had sacked Ramos and Comolli who were inextricably linked and replaced them with a new coach and a new DoF, probably foreign to this league, when we were bottom of the table in mid season.

Thirdly, a manager and his fuckwitted henchman (Bond not Jordon) was brought in who IMO had displayed a distinct lack of intelligence and ability to coach and manage football teams.

Well I don't see this. Putting aside your rather consuming hatred of Kevin Bond and Harry Rednapp, he has not displayed a lack of intelligence or ability. He may not sign players you like, he may not put teams out that you like and he may say things you don't like but personal opinion and his factually proven record at West Ham and Pompey are different things.

As I have said before, we have played well in some games. In other games, Rednapp has made mistakes and in others he has had to deal with the remnants of the Ramos regime but I see it as unhealthily unrealistic of you to expect a linear improvement this soon when Rednapp has not had a chance to renovate the squad in terms of personnel and mentality. We have moved up the table and rather than be adrift we are on level terms with the clubs down there and have enough points to for which to fight to move up the table.

You may have enjoyed watching his teams, but I never have. Just as bad is the fact that the man has no fucking integrity whatsoever. He talks bollocks, and does so at every given opportunity. If his teams played football it would be forgiveable. But they don't. They are unambitious and cowardly. And I am seeing the same traits already in our games.

Tell me honestly what you were thinking watching the Wigan game or the Burnley games ? How great this is ? I didn't see a single game as bad as those two under Ramos. Even the post CC final defeat at Birmingham we had more of the ball.

Again I don't see the point in comparing awful games. Where did I say I enjoyed either game? But what about the Villa, Stoke, Birmingham, Newcastle and Pompey games. You can say we had more possession but that means nothing as in most of those games we created very few if any chances. Against Burnley, for all the awful play we put forward we did create enough chances to keep the game at 90 mins.

If you really believe that we are playing better football currently than we were then we fundementally disagree on what good football is and maybe it's as simple as that.

Maybe it is but I have outlined how I think our team should play football with the players we have above and I see this as having happened more under Rednapp than Ramos this season. Clearly it hasn't in every game, but you seem to think that each team under a certain coach has a recognizable trend that pervades each game. It doesn't always happen thus and especially one that is down at the botttom. Sometimes you need pragmatism. I am sure Gary Megson and Roy Hodgson can tell you this. I would not have wanted us to play in the exact same way we did under Ramos and gone down rather than taking each game separately and playing according to that. If that means defending against United for a point without our two best defenders then so be it.

I cannot see the similarities between the team that beat Arsenal and the one that lost to Newcastle, Birmingham or Liverpool at the back end of this season or the team that lost all those games this. In fact if anything the insipid, unimaginative, stunted displays this season under Ramos were far more emblematic of his 'brand' than the odd win over Arsenal or extra time win over Chelsea.

 

[g_harry]

The players are to blame. There are over paid & over sensitive. Thats why Roy Keane lost his job at Sunderland - majority of players dont have the love, passion, commitment for the game never mind their club. I think 90% of them can be branded with this critisim.

How i miss Robbie Keane, no matter what you knew he would give everything he had once he crossed the white line.

 

[DavidsSpecs]

Sorry if this has already been said a hundred times (haven't got time to trawl through 30 pages) but like many people I'm not feeling the joys of being a spurs fan right now. I'm just thinking, from a basic pyschological point of view, surely Harry's outbursts are only adding insult to injury - I absolutely agree that he shouldn't have to pussyfoot around and that some footballers need a bit of an ego bashing - but when he talks the way he does how can he expect anyone to play with confidence, he's basically said a few times 'this lot aren't good enough'. Just my two scents worth.

 

[g_harry]

If someone tells you ur not good enough do you sulk in the corner like a spoilt baby. The real players/men stand up and be counted for. Have to say Bentley responded brilliantly against burnley.

 

[Michey]

Sorry if this has already been said a hundred times (haven't got time to trawl through 30 pages) but like many people I'm not feeling the joys of being a spurs fan right now. I'm just thinking, from a basic pyschological point of view, surely Harry's outbursts are only adding insult to injury - I absolutely agree that he shouldn't have to pussyfoot around and that some footballers need a bit of an ego bashing - but when he talks the way he does how can he expect anyone to play with confidence, he's basically said a few times 'this lot aren't good enough'. Just my two scents worth.

I think no one has a problem with this, i even agree.........but keep it from the media. Sitting in front of all the journalists and just feeding them isn't very intelligent. It even gets dumber and dumber the more you think about it.

Media are even beginning to make angles on it. What a surprise....

 

[steve]

I think no one has a problem with this, i even agree.........but keep it from the media. Sitting in front of all the journalists and just feeding them isn't very intelligent. It even gets dumber and dumber the more you think about it.

Media are even beginning to make angles on it. What a surprise....

Spot on. Privately give 'em the hairdryer or whatever it takes to make them realise that they must play better. But publicly a good manager almost always backs his players. Ferguson is a master at it and with good reason. It earns respect. People realise that their arse is being covered and they try that bit harder for the manager. He's put himself on the line for me I'll do it for him.

Think about it. You're in work and you make a BIG mistake that has BIG ramifications. Your boss pulls you into his office, gives you a b*ll*cking, tells you it isn't good enough and says you must improve. BUT publicly he covers your a**e, either glosses over it or takes the blame himself. That's a boss I would respect and would try my hardest for.

Alternatively the boss bawls me out, tells me all the above and then lets anyone who cares to listen know that it was all my fault and he's doing his best but he's hamstrung by his staff who aint upto the job. I'd consider him a **** and have no respect for him at all.

They might earn thousands etc. but psychologically we all follow similar patterns and footballers are no different. They're human. The ones Fergie has had trouble with are the ones who haven't fully appreciated what he's doing for them. These are the ones he lets go people like Stam, RVN, Beckham, players that have broken ranks or disrespected what he's trying to do for them and more importantly the team.

Redknapp is not the right man for Spurs. He's weak.

Ramos well I don't know. Maybe he underestimated the cultural differences here and the emphasis on bonding and team spirit. Maybe he should have been given longer but his record was shocking in the league.

Jol may have had some tactical weaknesses but he was right for Spurs. It felt right. I enjoyed going, I expected us to win more often than not. The players played for him. And he understood what it meant to be Spurs manager better than either Ramos or Redknapp. We can argue the toss all day about Redknapp and Ramos but ultimately there is one person who is responsible for what's happened in the last 18 months.

Daniel Levy.

 

[Michey]

Spot on. Privately give 'em the hairdryer or whatever it takes to make them realise that they must play better. But publicly a good manager almost always backs his players. Ferguson is a master at it and with good reason. It earns respect. People realise that their arse is being covered and they try that bit harder for the manager. He's put himself on the line for me I'll do it for him.

Think about it. You're in work and you make a BIG mistake that has BIG ramifications. Your boss pulls you into his office, gives you a b*ll*cking, tells you it isn't good enough and says you must improve. BUT publicly he covers your a**e, either glosses over it or takes the blame himself. That's a boss I would respect and would try my hardest for.

Alternatively the boss bawls me out, tells me all the above and then lets anyone who cares to listen know that it was all my fault and he's doing his best but he's hamstrung by his staff who aint upto the job. I'd consider him a **** and have no respect for him at all.

They might earn thousands etc. but psychologically we all follow similar patterns and footballers are no different. They're human. The ones Fergie has had trouble with are the ones who haven't fully appreciated what he's doing for them. These are the ones he lets go people like Stam, RVN, Beckham, players that have broken ranks or disrespected what he's trying to do for them and more importantly the team.

Redknapp is not the right man for Spurs. He's weak.

Ramos well I don't know. Maybe he underestimated the cultural differences here and the emphasis on bonding and team spirit. Maybe he should have been given longer but his record was shocking in the league.

Jol may have had some tactical weaknesses but he was right for Spurs. It felt right. I enjoyed going, I expected us to win more often than not. The players played for him. And he understood what it meant to be Spurs manager better than either Ramos or Redknapp. We can argue the toss all day about Redknapp and Ramos but ultimately there is one person who is responsible for what's happened in the last 18 months.

Daniel Levy.

Awsome post! :clap:

 

[SpurSince57]

I think we're getting slightly sidetracked from the purpose of the thread here. Has the football improved under Redknapp? One can only say it hasn't got any worse.

 

[Damian99]

Think about it. You're in work and you make a BIG mistake that has BIG ramifications. Your boss pulls you into his office, gives you a b*ll*cking, tells you it isn't good enough and says you must improve. BUT publicly he covers your a**e, either glosses over it or takes the blame himself. That's a boss I would respect and would try my hardest for.

Yes and if thats your first "fuck up" thats what i would expect any decent boss/manager to do. But if like some of these players you "fuck up" week in and week out and in the opinion of your boss/manager you aren't putting in the effort or work he's paying you for, do you expect him to keep covering your arse for you?

You would be fucking sacked mate.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think no one has a problem with this, i even agree.........but keep it from the media. Sitting in front of all the journalists and just feeding them isn't very intelligent. It even gets dumber and dumber the more you think about it.

Media are even beginning to make angles on it. What a surprise....

Exactly how I feel. Great managers don't need to humiliate their players this way week after week. It's just him saying to the press "It's not me guv it's them useless wankers in there".

Good managers - and I don't just mean Wenger & Ferguson - don't ever hold their autopsy in public. Publicly they stand firm behind their players and privately deal with it. This inspires respect & loyalty.

 

[stemark44]

Spot on. Privately give 'em the hairdryer or whatever it takes to make them realise that they must play better. But publicly a good manager almost always backs his players. Ferguson is a master at it and with good reason. It earns respect. People realise that their arse is being covered and they try that bit harder for the manager. He's put himself on the line for me I'll do it for him.

I would say that Ferguson is one of the very few managers in world football who could stand in front of his players and give them the hairdryer.
He is manager of the biggest club in the world and he has been successful for a long time.
Who is going to argue with him and if they did,they know 100% that they would be gone!
Most of our players probably think they should be playing for a bigger team anyway and in reality if they told our manager to fuck off - could we seriously afford to lose our best players at a huge loss!
No chance.

 

[jurgen]

Yes and if thats your first "fuck up" thats what i would expect any decent boss/manager to do. But if like some of these players you "fuck up" week in and week out and in the opinion of your boss/manager you aren't putting in the effort or work he's paying you for, do you expect him to keep covering your arse for you?

You would be fucking sacked mate.

I think there's truth in that, harry began by publicly saying he couldnt believe our talents were down where they were in the league and all they really needed was an arm round them and some confidence. This has evidently proved to be wrong - I do think harry is weak and probably not more than a stop gap, but again i think comparisons to whinger and fergie are a little unfair. Their teams have never ever performed liked this because the players havent been able to coast through three different managers and still fail to bother turning up much of the time - I'm all for keeping it in house up to a point, but I think this public criticism is far more likely to seperate those with the strong personalities from those who go and hide.

Downing for instance has been unfairly ridiculed for his england career but keeps working hard, and helps his team, which is clearly why harry rates him, same reason he was frustrated by not getting bellamy.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Maybe it is but I have outlined how I think our team should play football with the players we have above and I see this as having happened more under Rednapp than Ramos this season. Clearly it hasn't in every game, but you seem to think that each team under a certain coach has a recognizable trend that pervades each game. It doesn't always happen thus and especially one that is down at the botttom. Sometimes you need pragmatism. I am sure Gary Megson and Roy Hodgson can tell you this. I would not have wanted us to play in the exact same way we did under Ramos and gone down rather than taking each game separately and playing according to that. If that means defending against United for a point without our two best defenders then so be it.

I cannot see the similarities between the team that beat Arsenal and the one that lost to Newcastle, Birmingham or Liverpool at the back end of this season or the team that lost all those games this. In fact if anything the insipid, unimaginative, stunted displays this season under Ramos were far more emblematic of his 'brand' than the odd win over Arsenal or extra time win over Chelsea.

OK, RE Ramos take a look at this post/thread:

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=1231503&postcount=22


What it demonstrates is for me the biggest single factor in our downfall at the start of this season. The difference that having Berbatov & Keane available for selection and not.

Now we can argue about how we may have got the best out of what we had, and I agree Ramos didn't always get that right this season, but I think he would certainly have got there, but the crucial thing is the vast difference in interaction that we had last year and this. And this was not Ramos's fault. This was Comolli's fault.

Other factors played a part like the new personnel bedding in and us generally not getting the rub, but these were secondary for me.

We lost the ability to play football in the final third of the pitch and are still struggling in this area which is why we haven't scored morte than 2 goals in the league and haven't won in 5/6 games.

This was not a problem of Ramos's making. Nor was it Redknapp's for that matter, but Ramos chose not to come out and blame everyone else. Perhaps he should have.

RE Redknapp

My opinion of Redknapp is that he is a poor and unimaginative coach and a poor tactition. I think he has had some of this leagues most exciting players under him at varios clubs at various times but has singularly failed to make any of those teams to enjyable to watch or achieve league success. Because to do this you must be able to do more than buy good players and pick good players. You must teach them how to play the game in the style you require and you must tell them exactly what is required of them every game and make sure they understand this.

In my opinion Redknapp buys good players, lets wankers like Bond "coach" them then gives them a bit of a gee-up pre match and hopes that they - being good players - will dig him out a result. This does happen but it is not a philosophy which works on a sustainable basis. It is an ad hoc approach with ad hoc results.

Like Terry Venables, I feel Redknapp's greatest skill is the ability to sing a song for the media. Keeping them happy is half way to keeping your job despite how shit you are at it.

 

[steve]

Yes and if thats your first "fuck up" thats what i would expect any decent boss/manager to do. But if like some of these players you "fuck up" week in and week out and in the opinion of your boss/manager you aren't putting in the effort or work he's paying you for, do you expect him to keep covering your arse for you?

You would be fucking sacked mate.

So is that an admission that Redknapp can't get the best out of the players? Can't earn their respect? So resorting to calling them out in public is going to do the job isn't it?

Maybe you try and manage people. Maybe you sit down with them and try and make it clear to them. As Redknapp himself says he has with Bentley...but if he can't do it then that is his responsibility and he must accept it. Once the summer transfer window has passed we should hear no more excuses from Redknapp as he'll have his squad assembled. I'm not holding my breath though.

I would say that Ferguson is one of the very few managers in world football who could stand in front of his players and give them the hairdryer.
He is manager of the biggest club in the world and he has been successful for a long time.
Who is going to argue with him and if they did,they know 100% that they would be gone!
Most of our players probably think they should be playing for a bigger team anyway and in reality if they told our manager to fuck off - could we seriously afford to lose our best players at a huge loss!
No chance.

How did Ferguson get to that position though? It wasn't always like that you know, he didn't just command respect 20 years ago. But that was 20 years ago when he was in his 40's and he luckily had time to learn from his mistakes and become the master manager that he is today. Redknapp is 61. If he hasn't learnt by now then he never will.

 

[dynamoSpurs]

Redknapp's an illusion. In other words, he sucks.

 

[Damian99]

So is that an admission that Redknapp can't get the best out of the players? Can't earn their respect? So resorting to calling them out in public is going to do the job isn't it?

Not an admission of anything. Its a simple fact that if you continue to under perform no matter in what job in life you will get sacked and deserve all you get. And if showing them up in public is a last resort and it sorts them out then great.

And Ramos on the other hand said fuck all in public about his players and do you think he had their respect? Did he get the best out of them? Make them perform to their potential? Did he hell, was that ALL ramos's fault? cos if you do then you're fucking deluded.

Some of you on here make me sick, most of you are just willing Redknapp to fail, fail before he's even started and pick up on anything he does or says.

I bet you want him to get beat in the CC Final so you can come on here and slag him off even more about how he got all his tactics wrong blah blah blah.

You'll be fucking lost if we win won't ya? But no doubt that still won't be good enough for most people on here.

Its fucking sad.

 

[Beni]

Some of you on here make me sick, most of you are just willing Redknapp to fail, fail before he's even started and pick up on anything he does or says.

I bet you want him to get beat in the CC Final so you can come on here and slag him off even more about how he got all his tactics wrong blah blah blah.

You'll be fucking lost if we win won't ya? But no doubt that still won't be good enough for most people on here.

Its fucking sad.

Couldn't agree more mate, Its fucking embarassing

 

[gibbs131]

Gibbs you know this to be bollocks. We have been behind in 9 out of 12 matches under Redknapp. 75%.

Oooh! NICE completely wrong stat there. If you are going to post stats, at LEAST make them true!