The Harry Effect

[archiewasking]

I can't be bothered to read page after page of handbags at dawn.

Will some nice mod lock / delete this tedious thread???? :grin:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

That's the best point you made.

Fair enough on the first paragraph but had we not signed Bent, where would be now? You can ridicule him as much as you like, a custom I have never understood from one's own fans, but he scores and has scored goals.

What I am saying is that our possession was in such unthreatening positons and played at such an unthreatening pace, despite our quick players, that teams would have been happy to sit back. Players didn't move off the ball, now they do. I am not saying we are Barca, but we are better and the results show that. You can wave stats past me re the last few games but we beat West Ham, drew with the Champions, were robbed by Toon and have played badly only in the last 180 minutes, and even in those games there have been elements of good play and good chances.

I don't discount the fact that Ramos is a good coach and schooled players well on keeping the ball but we did nothing with the ball nor looked likely. In fact many of the goals we did manage under Ramos were lucky; Bent's v Chelsea, Villa and Stoke, an own goal v Boro. So much for Ramos being so unlucky.

I am not saying Berbatov is a luxury like a gold plated toilet roll holder is a luxury. I am saying we were spoiled by him and Keane for two years because both could create something out of nothing for themselves or each other. That is rare in a great team let alone a mid table one. Poyet may talk about lack of intelligence but if a coaching staff cannot convey their thoughts and instructions who is the unintelligent one? I suppose he was used to working with footballing geniuses at Swindon and Leeds. Shocking excuse. I refer you to a Bill Nick quotation saying if football were academic, he would recruit from Oxbridge, or something to that effect. You are implicitly obfuscating football. It's not that complicated.

Let's just leave Bentley and rejoice in the miracle that we agree ok?

I don't believe we are creating fewer chances. Sunday was awful in that respect but you seem to believe that under Ramos we were knocking the door down and it wouldn't budge and yet can only hold onto Hull at home for evidence because in every other game we created virtually nothing and deserved to lose. But we have been here haven't we? I cannot debate with someone who thinks that the first two months of football were the best in 20 years and yet they coincided with the worst start in history. It's like saying the 40s were the best period ever for German-English relations.

Ok let's leave Bolton for a second, could you see West Ham happening? We weren't that good against Hull. We didn't take our chances. Against Bolton we did and played very good football. And before you mention it, I do believe that Rednapp's immediate arrival and Ramos departure did too. I am positive you do not and probably credit Ramos for Bolton. Your opinion.

We were by far the better side against Newcaslte and yet again you are being naive holding onto your possession toy. They had a lot of possession early on in the second half but did nothing with it, in part because our friend King played. That wouldn't have happened under Ramos. Then thanks to a rejuvenated Modric (he has admitted that he is playing better) and an on fire Lennon, we were by far the better team. We lost. It happens. We did something similar to Liverpool.

Your comparison to the CC game there is rather silly. That was a cup game where Newcastle had no manager, a half empty stadium and I would say no great motivation to progress. They were in dire straits. Now, Liverpool excepted, they are playing pretty well and have a lot of players back. You know the two games are not comparable just as the Liverpool games were not. And as far a I remember, it was a scrappy game that poor marking and Coloccini gave to us. Your 'McCan, Dunne, Carra' list works both ways.

We didn't show enough spirit as we did against Chelsea, that's why we had two points.

The problem is under Ramos we had in very short supply spirit, confidence, camaraderie, skill, technique, intelligence and hard work. That's why we had two points.

No it isn't a ridiculous thing to say. I didn't say Ramos would have ridiculed him but he is known to be distant and dour. I can see a correlation between Gomes' form and Ramos and his coach leaving. There were other factors, of course, namely that Gomes was more physically fit and a great keeper anyway but Ramos' skills of motivation were not especially evident to me.

Masiah? I assume you mean messiah. No I haven't. How many times do I have to say that Rednapp was not my dream choice? But bottom of the table with two points didn't really endear Mourinho or Lippi. Rednapp has had Ramos' team and Ramos' mess to work with and yet it is you who is spewing because no miracles have been worked and we haven't scored many goals. But we have secured 18 points and are out of the relegation zone and through the cups. Yea, Rednapp has got us playing worse. That makes sense.

Bale didn't play against Boro and was poor against Villa. Nowhere do I remember him being labelled our best player of the season. And even if he did have a few good games, to imply that Rednapp fucked him up when his form was disintegrating before is just plain rubbish. Even if it were true and in his anti-Welsh rage, he destroyed Bale there are enough players who are playing better under Rednapp to offset such horrible destruction of the young lad.

Ramos played Lennon on the left and created this mess by signing Bentley. He also played Modric outwide. Dawson is not slow, he is occasionally prone to error, I am not sure what he got in GCSE Physics and if he can't read the play very well then United and the best player in the world (tm) mustn't either because he kept them at bay including Berba. Again I don't understand the mentality of disliking Spurs players. I don't even dislike our least favourite player, D Bentley.

King isn't a 'mute point'- assuming you are using the bastardized version of 'moot point' which means debatable and topical. It is that. He is fit enough to play and how you can even imagine that he playing him hasn't helped us is beyond me. Look at our results with him and without. We lose few games. We win more. You do the math. And Corluka and Zokora are good players, but capable to fill King's shoes against most of the teams in this league? Give me a break. If Ramos was 'assuming that King's career was coming to an end'. Why play him at all? And why play him in less important cup games?

Your mate Jol attracted Berbatov. Rednapp has signed no one yet so let's see. Even if he signs someone we don't like, let's wait to see what team he builds. His record at previous clubs and here since arrival afford him that, at least in the eyes of sane people.

To be honest, you spell well, but you repeat adnausium the same things page after page. I'm not sure you are deliberately pretending to not understand what I am saying or you actually believe some of the stupid stuff you say. So Gomes form improved under Redknapp ? I haven't seen Gomes game change one iota. He made his worse mistake at Fulham under Redknapp, was still missing the odd cross or two on Sunday, but still made outstanding saves and continued to bravely command his area. I didn't want Redknapp to change Gomes in any way. This is just one of the many silly - buy into the media cliche - arguments you keep chucking up.

One thing I cannot argue is that Redknapp has a superior points per game this season than Ramos. But I was never arguing this in first place.

OK, you think we are playing better football under Redknapp. Despite not having as much of the ball and despite the stats saying we are creating fewer chances per game. Your choice.

I disagree.

We are clearly not going to change our polarised opinions - yet. I accept that if things change, I will.

FYI, it's paucity.

Thank you.

Are you hoping that by pointing out the odd spelling mistake it somehow devalues my opinion and post ?

I'm sure you wouldn't be so pathetically small minded.

BC just looks at the possession stats after it because Ramos had good stats in that respect:






Even though Ramos only had better possession because we were BEHIND CHASING AN EQUALIZER when he was manager. haha.

Out of 11 EPL games that Redknapp has managed (not including Bolton which by admission he had virtually no imput) we have been behind in 7.

Gibbs, you are way out of your depth.
I think I heard your mommy calling you for your jelly doughnut.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

I can't be bothered to read page after page of handbags at dawn.

Will some nice mod lock / delete this tedious thread???? :grin:

I'm afraid we don't have anyone answering that description on the staff.

:razz:

 

[gibbs131]

Out of 11 EPL games that Redknapp has managed (not including Bolton which by admission he had virtually no imput) we have been behind in 7.

Gibbs, you are way out of your depth.
I think I heard your mommy calling you for your jelly doughnut.

Really? What has that to do with Ramos not winning a single Prem game for us this season hence ALWAYS having to CHASE the game in desperation. In Harry's case at least we have been in a position to PROTECT leads. We were unbeaten in the first 7 games or so with Harry so obviously a more competitive game ensued rather than throw the kitchen sink to get ANY kind of result under Ramos.

Oh yeah, and Harry turned around some of those depacits you mentioned. Funny how Ramos couldnt.

You argument was based on Ramos playing better football and possesion. But we only looked more exciting because we were desperate to score to get a draw or on the VERY rare occasion a win. BECAUSE WERE WE LOSING.

Oh yeah you know Berbatov was with Spurs this season under Ramos right? He left on the minute deal remember? So even with Berbs Ramos could not muster a friken win!

As for the mommy calling me for a donut. I am in the USA, just bought a house and I am 4000 miles away from her. So you are out of your depth when playing the little boy on mommies computer lark. Which is a little 90's anyway.

I busted your possession claim wide open and you can't handle it so you go for insults. Pretty much sums you up.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Would you like to tell me how many minutes Berbatov played this season for Ramos Gibbs ?

 

[Rackybear]

But the point I've tried to make is that we did deserve more than those two points. How can anybody say that a team having 35% of the ball deserved to beat us. It's a ridiculous thing to say.

What cost us then is what has cost us lately. Our poor options in the final third. Our build up play and possession counted for little because our strikers were not providing an outlet for our possession. Bent and Campbell are Championship pit ponies and Pav is fucked from a long season and trying to come to terms with a tough new life.

All our performances under Ramos lacked were someone to provide some intelligence in the final 3rd - be it hold up play, a classy piece of movement or finishing - and for Carragher to score own goals or Dunne gift us games.

Under Ramos we outplayed most teams (even at Chelsea we were looking the more likely to score) but lacked the quality in the final 3rd to capitalise (and the odd break).

Everybody was bedazzled by the so called genius of Redknapp, when all that happened was for the first hadfull of games the breaks (Mcann, Carragher, Clichy, Dunne, Olsen,) went our way instead of going against us. (in fact West Ham was the first game we won in the EPL without an own goal or a sending off).

Instead of losing games by the odd goal and a bit of misfortune, for the next few games we won them by the odd goal and piece of Fortune.

Our playing style and quality and quantity of chances didn't change. Or actually got worse. In my opinion.

Do you honestly think our performances have improved. Performances not results.

Mossst of the possession stemmed from passing (backwards and sidways) between our midfield and defence.

By the virtue of what you say in the first paragraph, having more possession means the other team does not deserve to win?

The truth is, what we did with the 65% possession in most cases was pretty much nothing (pointless passing between our defenders and JJ/Zokora). The 35% the other teams had, led to more goals, more clear cut scoring oppurtunites and better penetration on our defence.

The truth is, when we had the ball under Ramos, I doubt the opposition supporters ever fealt to themselves ... "spurs are getting close to scoring here and really putting our defence on the backfoot", but I always felt that way about the opposition, even with their 35% possession.

 

[Coyboy]

To be honest, you spell well, but you repeat adnausium the same things page after page. I'm not sure you are deliberately pretending to not understand what I am saying or you actually believe some of the stupid stuff you say. So Gomes form improved under Redknapp ? I haven't seen Gomes game change one iota. He made his worse mistake at Fulham under Redknapp, was still missing the odd cross or two on Sunday, but still made outstanding saves and continued to bravely command his area. I didn't want Redknapp to change Gomes in any way. This is just one of the many silly - buy into the media cliche - arguments you keep chucking up.

One thing I cannot argue is that Redknapp has a superior points per game this season than Ramos. But I was never arguing this in first place.

OK, you think we are playing better football under Redknapp. Despite not having as much of the ball and despite the stats saying we are creating fewer chances per game. Your choice.

I disagree.

We are clearly not going to change our polarised opinions - yet. I accept that if things change, I will.



Thank you.

Are you hoping that by pointing out the odd spelling mistake it somehow devalues my opinion and post ?

I'm sure you wouldn't be so pathetically small minded.




Out of 11 EPL games that Redknapp has managed (not including Bolton which by admission he had virtually no imput) we have been behind in 7.

Gibbs, you are way out of your depth.
I think I heard your mommy calling you for your jelly doughnut.

I repeat the same things? What are you doing? Inventing different arguments to convince us that Ramos' Spurs actually played well this season? Gomes made one stupid error against Fulham but generally he has improved and he himself has put Parks down as a reason. I always thought Gomes was a good player and I think we share the same opinion, hallelujah, but towards the end of Ramos’ reign he was poor and for me his confidence was shattered. So Gomes has said he has improved under Rednapp? Modric has said he has improved under Rednapp? And yet you disagree. Ok.

I haven't bought into any media cliche. I have watched Spurs and its players. It seems it is you have been fooled by the messianic image of Ramos who engineered, with a talented squad, our worst start ever. I am not convinced we are creating fewer chances, if you can show we are then fine but if we were creating more chances under Ramos and not putting away most of them, then again that is surely an indictment of Ramos- or did we suddenly decide to start scoring post Ramos?

The difference between me and you is that I don't have some strange, illogical attachment to Rednapp. I just think he is a good manager who has done well considering the circumstances. Will he get us to the top four? Who knows, he has never managed a big club. Will he get us out of this mess? So far the signs would say yes. Will we win another cup? We have every chance. Can we make an unequivocal judgement considering he has not signed one player? Of course not.

Re paucity, I was simply trying to let you know as I saw you spelt it wrongly twice. I was just trying to educate you. I don't believe you spelt it wrongly in response to me so I wasn't being 'pathetically minded'. About that anyway. Have a good night.

 

[themanwhofellasleep]

I'm with Coyboy on this. I don't really care about Redknapp. If he turns out to be brilliant for Spurs, then I'll be happy and if he turns out to be sh*t then I'll be disappointed, but I don't have either massive expectations nor an enormous axe to grind.

People keep going on about Harry's friends in the media and how we've all been fooled. I can't talk about other fans, but personally, I judge managers by their acheivements, not by how many quotes they give to their mate at The Sun. Frankly, I'd prefer Harry to stop being so pally with the press, but I don't think it affects his ability as a manager. I've always been impressed by his teams, without thinking that he ever acheived anything earth-shattering.

And so far, based on his record with Spurs, he's doing well. Is it too early to judge? Of course. He's done as well as can be expected given the resources at his disposal in a limited time-frame. In a years time we might be challenging for the top six or we might be playing Championship football. I don't know. None of us do. That's what is so ridiculous about this thread. All I can say is that we looked set for relegation under Ramos, and now we look like we might stay up.

And Spurs staying up is more important than whether or not anyone here likes Harry.

 

[SpurSince57]

B-C's whole argument seems to devolve on his belief that we played great football under Ramos, and that the guy was simply unlucky. Hardly anyone else appears to have noticed the great football, in the league at least, and 10 months of largely shit-to-indifferent league performances can hardly be ascribed to bad luck.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I repeat the same things? What are you doing? Inventing different arguments to convince us that Ramos' Spurs actually played well this season? Gomes made one stupid error against Fulham but generally he has improved and he himself has put Parks down as a reason. I always thought Gomes was a good player and I think we share the same opinion, hallelujah, but towards the end of Ramos’ reign he was poor and for me his confidence was shattered. So Gomes has said he has improved under Rednapp? Modric has said he has improved under Rednapp? And yet you disagree. Ok.

I haven't bought into any media cliche. I have watched Spurs and its players. It seems it is you have been fooled by the messianic image of Ramos who engineered, with a talented squad, our worst start ever. I am not convinced we are creating fewer chances, if you can show we are then fine but if we were creating more chances under Ramos and not putting away most of them, then again that is surely an indictment of Ramos- or did we suddenly decide to start scoring post Ramos?

The difference between me and you is that I don't have some strange, illogical attachment to Rednapp. I just think he is a good manager who has done well considering the circumstances. Will he get us to the top four? Who knows, he has never managed a big club. Will he get us out of this mess? So far the signs would say yes. Will we win another cup? We have every chance. Can we make an unequivocal judgement considering he has not signed one player? Of course not.

Re paucity, I was simply trying to let you know as I saw you spelt it wrongly twice. I was just trying to educate you. I don't believe you spelt it wrongly in response to me so I wasn't being 'pathetically minded'. About that anyway. Have a good night.

And I you.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

B-C's whole argument seems to devolve on his belief that we played great football under Ramos, and that the guy was simply unlucky. Hardly anyone else appears to have noticed the great football, in the league at least, and 10 months of largely shit-to-indifferent league performances can hardly be ascribed to bad luck.

That's OK. I was in a small minority when pointing out to you how shit Robinson was, How shit Mido was, how stupid Dawson was, how good Lee was, how not shit Jenas and Zokora are not, How good Carrick was (yes I can remember a time when he got the Jenas/Zokora treatment)Jol's mistakes etc etc.

You caught on, eventually as did the lemmings.

Of course it wasn't all about luck. It wasn't luck we pissed Arsenal and chelsea in the CC this year. It wasn't luck we comfortably survived another terrible start with the same clowns in defence and made europe. It wasn't luck that we signed Modric or Gomes or Woodgate. It also wasn't luck that Berbatov and Keane jumped ship together or Defoe before them.
It wasn't luck that Kaboul and Malbranque were treated badly. But most of all, in relation to this thread and the point I'm trying to make, it wsn't luck that in many games under Ramos we dominated the ball and played the brand of football that I like.

It was often shit luck that we didn't get what we deserved for trying to play that way. I believe that, and couldn't give a flying fuck if you don't. In fact, to a degree, I'd even start to worry if you and masses agreed.

When I start to see things they way most of you lot do I'll fucking shit myself.

 

[stemark44]

To be absolutely honest I don't see any difference at all in Spurs style of play under Jol,under Ramos and now under Redknapp.We may have had umpteen changes in personnel but very little has changed in the style of football we play.
When you look at the differences in the 3 managers,I think thats pretty surprising that they all seem to play the game in the same way!
I think the only manager in recent times who has actually come into a team and really tried to change them with a different principal,is Zola at West ham and I hope it pays off for him!I am sorry we didn't get him first.

 

[Rackybear]

@ Stemark44

lol, do you watch football?

Their are huge differences in the way we played football under Jol & Ramos. Huge differences in the way chelsea played under Mourinho / and any other manager they have had..so on and so on.

The way a football team plays is a direct reflection of the managers personality and the way in which he sets them up to play.

Arsenal's style - Reflects wenger's approach to fast, flowing, sexy, possession football to unlock teams. Regardless of if they play their first team or reserves, they play with the same manner, and surprise surprise its not because the players all share a love for passing the ball.

Take wenger away from arsenal and you take away what arsenal have become well known for.

This applies to every manager...

Allardyces Teams - Physical
Benitez's - Organised
Tony Pulis' - A threat from set plays
etc..

Ramos in his first few months at spurs made it quite clear to the players to pressurise the opposition off the ball and break forward quickly with pace/movement and one touch passing. He successfully achieved that up until the CC win until we decided to go awol for the remainder of the season and into the next.

His philosophy started off brilliantly and was their for everyone to see, but after that I failed to see what we were trying to do with the football.

@ B-C

B-C you pick out the wins against Chelsea and Arsenal, but these are well in the past, so I dont know why you keep bringing them back to the table. I can easily pick out the defeats to Birmingham (4-1) and Newcastle (4-1) to counter act your arguement of our best football in 20 years BS.

I was a Ramos admirer too. I rate his managerial credentials, I really do. But when a team of spurs' stature and a squad with the ability of our players fails to win a solitary game in 8 matches, then you know something is wrong. To put this down to luck is laughable, perhaps we should be an entrant for the guiness book of records for the most unluckiest? It was not just our first 8 games, it was pretty much every game post CC win, in which we looked shite.

I dont know what you saw, but rewind the tapes and watch our first 8 games this season. I saw a team of players who were deflated and carrying a weight on their shoulders physically and mentally. They had no direction on the football pitch and looked clueless to as to what they were doing. At no moment in time did we EVER look a threat on the oppositions goal. I dont know what went wrong, but its clear something did.

Much like BMJ went from two succesive 5th place finishes to a shoddy start to the new campaign leading to his sacking, Ramos achieved the same. He went from CC hero, to villan within a matter of months. BMJ's succession of results was blamed on Ramos-gate, whilst Ramos' was blamed upon influx of players and the departures of Keane/Berbatov.

I think its about time we had some fucking stability.

 

[steve]

We would be ten points adrift by now.

Harry was no-one's dream manager, but he was the best we could have done in the circumstances. He has tightened the defence and got us scrapping for points. We are rubbish going forward, but it is difficult to see any manager doing much better with this bunch. Individually the players are not all that, but the lack of balance in the squad makes them less than the sum of their parts.

To bring about an improvement in January we do not necessarily need better players than we have now, we need players who will compliment those we have and bring out the best in them. I trust Harry to get that right more than I do Comolli or Ramos, neither of whom showed the slightest sign of understanding the Premiership.

Very good post. Your point about the balance is spot on. He aint great but if Scott Parker came in we'd be much better as we would with a proper LW and another (complimentary) forward.

Bentley has been mostly shite but he REALLY shouldn't be playing on the left wing and to keep playing him there is gonna ruin him confidence wise. He's a decent player who needs a run in his correct position.
Zokopops for his occasional good performances needs replacing with someone who can tackle, anticipate and who isn't shit scared of receiving the ball. Parker would do for now.
As for another striker Keane would be nice (but won't happen) or a fit Ashton (will never happen - be fit that is). Your guess is as good as mine up front.....

 

[steve]

Redknapp took over on 26.Oct. Since then I can only really think of one outstanding (if you could call it that) EPL performance, which was away at West Ham, a couple of decent-ish performances against Liverpool at home and ManU (weakened) at home
(but both those games could have seen us loose but for good fortune)

We were missing our first choice centre halves King & Woodgate (after 10 minutes). The Man Yoo equivalent would've left them with O'Shea and Evans at CH not Ferdinand and Vidic.

Lets show all of the facts please not just the ones which suit our argument.....

 

[Coyboy]

And I you.

Ok we have said all we are going to say, neither of us is going to come up with something out of the bag. The end of 2008 seems a good point to end it. Happy New Year.

I wasn't being pretentious or in your words pathetic re that spelling error, simply pointing it out. I think my arguments themselves were enough and so do one or two others.

 

[Shanks]

A good debate if you ask me.

I'm still on the side of that Ramos was no better than Redknapp, in terms of the type of football we played.

There were some good games, last season, mainly in the cup, but since February our league record under ramos was as bad as anyones. And I do not recall us playing pretty football.

However, Ramos isn't a bad manager, he would never have gotten the Real Madrid job if he was, and I do like how Seville played, and how he kinda wanted us to play. Maybe if he would have gotten all his targets, like Arshavin, then maybe things would have been different.

Jol was my favourite manager, yeah he amde mistakes, but everyone does, yet he was still successful in terms of league placement (2 x 5th places). Although you could argue that none of the other teams were up to scratch then (villa, everton, man city etc).

I hope we do well under Redknapp, he is a likeably character. He hasn't set the world alight with his tactical awareness, although he hasn't managed a club as big as ours before (fans/funding), so the answer as to who will be right will come to light at some point.

I'd imagine, how we start next season will be the key, a good start and in a good position come Nov/Dec next year, then you'll be able to see how the team has developed under the new regime.

 

[lennon4england]

I'd imagine, how we start next season will be the key, a good start and in a good position come Nov/Dec next year, then you'll be able to see how the team has developed under the new regime.

Assuming we stay up.

 

[Shanks]

Very much so, I'm sure we will be fine though!

He says with great hope!

 

[gibbs131]

Would you like to tell me how many minutes Berbatov played this season for Ramos Gibbs ?

Would you like to tell me how Ramos failed to man manage him to motivate Berbs to play?

Or how Ramos failed to do a Fergie and tell everyone to "fuck off" when it came to people sniffing around Ronaldo?

Ramos said he wanted Berbs to stay. But he didn't have the balls to stand up to Levy to stop the transfer.