The Sherwood recurrence

mancman

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#22
As a postscript I would love to have seen the comments (if SC was around then) of some people on this site to the first few months of the great, great Bill Nick.
 

Spurger King

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#23
Tim is not perfect and where he perhaps falls down the most is his media skills, and it saddens me because of this performance and this performance alone it has cost him his job.
I wish you'd put this at the beginning, as I would have known not to bother reading the rest. Just another misplaced, sanctimonious rant masquerading as insight.

Could have saved a lot of words by just typing 'I saw the sad man on the telly looking sad and you lot are all big stupid doo doo heads for making him have a boo boo" :cry:
 

rupsmith

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#24
Superb article. I would certainly keep Tim S for another year. I just don't understand the criticism of TS's media persona. Give me an honest man with a heart than all those other media manipulators. Tim's record in winning games is better than AVB, Martin Jol and HR. Some of the criticism of TS from people on this site borders on the plain nasty. These are probably the kind of people like those PSG fans (?) who pelted the Chelsea disabled fans during the Champions league game last week. Lets support a manager who has real feelings for our club.
I could not agree more.
 

avonspurs

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#25
Superb article. I would certainly keep Tim S for another year. I just don't understand the criticism of TS's media persona. Give me an honest man with a heart than all those other media manipulators. Tim's record in winning games is better than AVB, Martin Jol and HR. Some of the criticism of TS from people on this site borders on the plain nasty. These are probably the kind of people like those PSG fans (?) who pelted the Chelsea disabled fans during the Champions league game last week. Lets support a manager who has real feelings for our club.
That's a bit out of line - comparing some verbal criticism with actual physical confrontation.
 

Frozen_Waffles

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Thread starter #26
Ok here you go.... apologise if the formatting is a bit poor

in turmoil? By what standard? We were, from memory, only 4 points off 4th place and in all the cup competitions. Yes, we had suffered some tonkings (no more than we've suffered (and against much the same teams) since TS has taken charge) but, if we are basing it on 'evidence' (which seems to be a pro-TS mantra!) then under no circumstances could it be classed as 'turmoil'. By turmoil, I meant a continuous change in the playing staff and the fact that we have gone through quite a few managers over the last 10 years or so.

sorry but where is the evidence for this sweeping statement? All players will strive to win the top competitions and earn the biggest salary: we can't do either at the moment, hence our club being a so-called 'stepping stone'.

I have a love for sweeping statements and I it is a problem I know. I don’t like using stats or evidence as it involves me doing some sort of research and hard work. As for the statement, King stayed at Spurs all his life Campbell didn’t, not always true I know, but generally I would have thought players who have come up through the youth system are more likely to have some loyalty, just a reasoned assumption. Not true in all cases.

He has brought one youngster through. Personally I rate Bentalab but believe he has been played too much when other players should have been played but that's a debate where there will never be a right/wrong answer.

Agree he has been overplayed, but the talent is there and Tim brought him through when it would have been easy to throw Capoue in there, I know this is debatable and possibly a matter of ego on Sherwood’s side

well done for taking ONE result and using it as a yardstick for everything. Let's not forget that we were playing the worst team in the league (yes, I realise we can only play those placed in front of us) so to use that solitary game as an example of players playng for him, etc.

Ok, well this one is easy, I was not trying to show one result and performance as the marker for the whole tenure of Sherwood. Just saying that it does not look like a team who has lost faith with their manager.


Individual players are at fault - jesus, how many mistakes have they made this season?!

Alot!


However, those mistakes haven't all been under TS's tenure so does AVB get given slack for some of these? As for tactics, of course they have an impact - high defensive line anyone? As does playing the right personnel for the right opponents and, indeed, scouting your opponents instead of saying that it wouldn't show you something you didn't already know.

Again not saying he is a master tactician, but I am willing to bet he knows more than fans and the media, though I admit sometimes the highline seemed a bit suicidal. On the positive side, I like his subs.

fans are too quick to slate players, particularly young ones. Nice to know you don't do that(!) - - I suppose Falque and Coulibally don't count.

Not slagging off Falque and Coulibally, just at the time Kane was in the spotlight and these players were not, and the people commenting on them clearly did not watch Spurs youth games and just judged them off a FM reputation. For all I know they could both be ready for the spurs team next season.

As for Danny Rose, seriously? He has not been one of our better players this season.

Yes he has! The downturn in Spurs form under AVB coincided with the injury to Rose, again not been perfect but in my eyes been decent. Nowhere near the disgrace that some people seem to see him as.

people who slate Bentalab because he's Sherwood's fav are wrong. People who believe Bentalab shouldn't have played in all the games because they believe there may be more suitable players are not wrong - they have an opinion.

Think that was answered in my other comment

As for Adebayor, I questioned this with another poster yesterday: how much of his 'resurgence' is down to TS's man-management and how much to Ade wanting to put one over AVB? And Ade has produced these kind of spells before. But, credit TS, he has him playing well.

Ha, could be true, but it’s worked whatever the angle, but it is easy to single out TS faults and not his successes.

personally, I don't want him out because of his media performance; I want him out because I don't feel he has the skills/knowledge/experience at this time to take the club forward.

Then I am guessing you were against him from the start, in which case you clearly do not trust Daniel Levy’s choice of manager, which in turn opens a new kettle of fish.

His media performances merely reinforce that (comparing his situation to that of Guardiola; his comments about not coming down from the stands in the Liverpool game because it would have had no effect; the seemingly constant stroking of his own ego (I'm my own man; I do it my way, etc.).

Again maybe true, but Ferguson and Redknapp have massive ego’s as well, he just gets questioned about everything he does and answers with his heart instead of his head. Again a media thing, because who really cares where our manager sits. The fact that he is willing to try something different is in itself a positive in my eyes.
 

avonspurs

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#27
Ok here you go.... apologise if the formatting is a bit poor
Thanks for the response - was interesting to read. I'll try to reply (although not sure how you did that reply in reply thing - a computer is like a car to me, if it works when I turn it on, that's all I need to know :)
 

avonspurs

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#28
Ok here you go.... apologise if the formatting is a bit poor
in turmoil? By what standard? We were, from memory, only 4 points off 4th place and in all the cup competitions. Yes, we had suffered some tonkings (no more than we've suffered (and against much the same teams) since TS has taken charge) but, if we are basing it on 'evidence' (which seems to be a pro-TS mantra!) then under no circumstances could it be classed as 'turmoil'. By turmoil, I meant a continuous change in the playing staff and the fact that we have gone through quite a few managers over the last 10 years or so. - - agree about that (going through managers, etc) but if it has happened so often, I would argue that's not turmoil but the status quo (I'm kidding, of course).
I suppose I have a different definition of 'turmoil' - - turmoil, to me, was living in the 80's and listening to us having to win at Barnsley to try to get enough points to survive. This is where I do agree with pro-TS'-ers :))) - we are too quick to change managers. In this case, however, I'd rather we gave time to a proven manager, with a track record (or, at the very least, A record) instead of putting our chips with a manager who has none of that. Personally, I think we sacked AVB too soon.


sorry but where is the evidence for this sweeping statement? All players will strive to win the top competitions and earn the biggest salary: we can't do either at the moment, hence our club being a so-called 'stepping stone'.


I have a love for sweeping statements and I it is a problem I know. I don’t like using stats or evidence as it involves me doing some sort of research and hard work. As for the statement, King stayed at Spurs all his life Campbell didn’t, not always true I know, but generally I would have thought players who have come up through the youth system are more likely to have some loyalty, just a reasoned assumption. Not true in all cases. - - Unfortunately, I have a very untrustworthy view of players. I think they are always looking at the next big payday (in the vast majority of cases) and that loyalty no longer exists (except for fans and the club). Even having continued success and paying top-dollar doesn't guarantee keeping your best players (just look at Rooney and Man Utd). Personally, I love to see home-grown players come through but I don't see them as being any more (or less) loyal than players coming from abroad (as an example, does being a fan count for anything? A player may be a lifelong, fanatical Spurs fan but be born in, say, Spain whereas a player coming through our ranks may have their ultimate wish as playing for their lifelong club, Arsenal [spit])

He has brought one youngster through. Personally I rate Bentalab but believe he has been played too much when other players should have been played but that's a debate where there will never be a right/wrong answer.

Agree he has been overplayed, but the talent is there and Tim brought him through when it would have been easy to throw Capoue in there, I know this is debatable and possibly a matter of ego on Sherwood’s side - - I must hold my hands up: I was spitting blood when he first started playing Bentalab but the boy does have talent. I just think sometimes TS plays him to prove a point as opposed to being for the benefit of the team - - I may be completely wrong; as you say, its a debatable point.

well done for taking ONE result and using it as a yardstick for everything. Let's not forget that we were playing the worst team in the league (yes, I realise we can only play those placed in front of us) so to use that solitary game as an example of players playng for him, etc.

Ok, well this one is easy, I was not trying to show one result and performance as the marker for the whole tenure of Sherwood. Just saying that it does not look like a team who has lost faith with their manager.


Individual players are at fault - jesus, how many mistakes have they made this season?!

Alot! - - definitely. I mean, seriously, which god of luck have our players f**ked off to make this many mistakes?!?!?!!


However, those mistakes haven't all been under TS's tenure so does AVB get given slack for some of these? As for tactics, of course they have an impact - high defensive line anyone? As does playing the right personnel for the right opponents and, indeed, scouting your opponents instead of saying that it wouldn't show you something you didn't already know.

Again not saying he is a master tactician, but I am willing to bet he knows more than fans and the media, though I admit sometimes the highline seemed a bit suicidal. On the positive side, I like his subs. - - agree, he most definitely knows more than I do. He has the time to make it part of his life. My point is that he's still learning and the PL is an awfully harsh place to learn. I kinda blame Levy for this; for putting him in this position but I don't believe he was anything other than a temp manager (despite signing an 18mth contract), what with the WC coming up. He may turn out to be a very good manager; he may turn out to be a crock of sh*t; or one of those in the middle who will find their level below the PL. I just don't want to find out with him being the manager of my club.

fans are too quick to slate players, particularly young ones. Nice to know you don't do that(!) - - I suppose Falque and Coulibally don't count.

Not slagging off Falque and Coulibally, just at the time Kane was in the spotlight and these players were not, and the people commenting on them clearly did not watch Spurs youth games and just judged them off a FM reputation. For all I know they could both be ready for the spurs team next season.

As for Danny Rose, seriously? He has not been one of our better players this season.

Yes he has! The downturn in Spurs form under AVB coincided with the injury to Rose, again not been perfect but in my eyes been decent. Nowhere near the disgrace that some people seem to see him as. - - he's not been as bad as some say but he has been poor this season. Not sure why that is as he started well. I think the downturn with AVB was because he relied a lot on the FBs to give width and Roses pace was good for that. AVB never had a real plan B when we lost him (one of his negative traits).

people who slate Bentalab because he's Sherwood's fav are wrong. People who believe Bentalab shouldn't have played in all the games because they believe there may be more suitable players are not wrong - they have an opinion.

Think that was answered in my other comment

As for Adebayor, I questioned this with another poster yesterday: how much of his 'resurgence' is down to TS's man-management and how much to Ade wanting to put one over AVB? And Ade has produced these kind of spells before. But, credit TS, he has him playing well.

Ha, could be true, but it’s worked whatever the angle, but it is easy to single out TS faults and not his successes. - true. And I'm guilty of that as much as anyone (mostly because people will always try to see the bit that proves the point and ignore the bits that counter that - - its a fault a lot of people online have, both pro and anti-TS). It has worked and long may it do so :)

personally, I don't want him out because of his media performance; I want him out because I don't feel he has the skills/knowledge/experience at this time to take the club forward.

Then I am guessing you were against him from the start, in which case you clearly do not trust Daniel Levy’s choice of manager, which in turn opens a new kettle of fish. - - actually no, wasn't against him from the start. Had concerns because of his lack of experience, etc. but supported the club (and by default him). However, my concerns were heightened quite soon with some of his tactical decisions/player choices. I still support the club and still want them to be a success, even if that means a manager I don't rate staying with us. My god, I started supporting us in O'Neill's tenure and have suffered Francis, etc. If Sherwood stays, it won't be the end of my world :)

His media performances merely reinforce that (comparing his situation to that of Guardiola; his comments about not coming down from the stands in the Liverpool game because it would have had no effect; the seemingly constant stroking of his own ego (I'm my own man; I do it my way, etc.).

Again maybe true, but Ferguson and Redknapp have massive ego’s as well, he just gets questioned about everything he does and answers with his heart instead of his head. Again a media thing, because who really cares where our manager sits. The fact that he is willing to try something different is in itself a positive in my eyes. - - but they have the games managed/experience to have that ego. Sherwood doesn't.
 

mancman

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#31
Avonspurs " That's a bit out of line - comparing some verbal criticism with actual physical confrontation".
Verbal criticism and plain nastiness are different. Some of the comments I see on this website are both cowardly and ignorant as are the PSG minority supporters as mentioned.
 

avonspurs

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#32
Avonspurs " That's a bit out of line - comparing some verbal criticism with actual physical confrontation".
Verbal criticism and plain nastiness are different. Some of the comments I see on this website are both cowardly and ignorant as are the PSG minority supporters as mentioned.
No, have to disagree. You can't make comparisons between those who physically assaults someone with verbal nastiness; the two are incomparable.
 

DiscoD1882

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#33
I don't wish to come over all insensitive and such, but he doesn't have to answer every single question he's asked by the media. He's embarrassing himself and most fans every time he opens his mouth.
He doesn't embarrass me in the slightest. I watch football. The match. Not football. The manager
 

DiscoD1882

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#34
I wish you'd put this at the beginning, as I would have known not to bother reading the rest. Just another misplaced, sanctimonious rant masquerading as insight.

Could have saved a lot of words by just typing 'I saw the sad man on the telly looking sad and you lot are all big stupid doo doo heads for making him have a boo boo" :cry:
Or maybe he is just saying. Get off the mangers back and give him a fucking chance??
 

strader

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#35
Personally Tim has done an amazing job based on his experience, knowledge and management skills as he had none at this level just at youth level.

we don't know why AVB left, just speculations really, however at that time no one of any real qualities was available, so Tim is there to rescue us.

in 4 months he has shown enough to get the board to rethink, re-analysis the situation. As a chairman would you back a man in the transfer window knowing fully he doesn't have that experience of buying and selling to get his squad ready for the following season. Honestly i don't trust Tim to be given that opportunity in the transfer window.

Tim has his style, however he needs more time but not as our manager currently as we are very close to challenging the top. He needs to learn, preferably as a number 2 otherwise he might be leading himself for a big fall if he believes he is ready to take on PL club now or next season.

Only his ego will be affected as he stated he doesn't want a number 2 role.

Bite your lips Tim, be a number 2 to our next manager and you will come back stronger.
 

TottenhamMattSpur

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#36
Just imagine how many titles we'd have won if we'd just stuck with David Pleat after Hoddle. That would have been what, 10 years of stability? I reckon we'd have won ohhh, at least 0 titles in that time. Cause we all know the key to success is to never sack a manager no matter how bad the team are.
 

Gilzeanking

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#39
Agree with strader above . I would add tho that I get an insight into how lynch mobs form sometimes in here . A sort of herd instinct takes over and the insults get nastier .

I suppose Tim didn't help matters by coming on the big man at the start , modest was he not and he left us with the impression that he really was taking over . A novice was going to step into a skilled high pressure job
and show us 'My way' 'I'm No1 or nothing' etc.

Perhaps if he'd confined himself to 'we're just concentrating on the next game' kind of stuff , he wouldn't have set himself up for it .

He's done well , beeb reporting WBrom poss in for him as manager , fantastic opportunity for him . Go Tim . Who knows , when he's learned his trade a bit more , maybe he'll come back as boss .
 
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#40
I cannot see how anyone can argue to keep Tim the man was inconsistent and confusing in everything that he did. I could not make sense of the tactics he was trying to play. Tim will never make a good manager he does not have the right type of character to ever succeed. The reason any of you argue that Tim should stay is because he is English.

AVB may have seemed to have only one game plan but least he had some idea of how he would like to play a specific tactic, it may not have worked but at least he was clear in the way he wanted the Team to play.

Before anyone says 4-5-1 is a useless tactic it is not a tactic it is a formation. Tactics are the way the team is set up and instructed to play. Tim just slots people into positions and gives no real instructions.
You are aware he has a Premiership winners medal from a team he captained right? If he donked you on the head with that you may realise he probably does have the character to succeed.
 
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