The Spurs Youth Thread – 2016/2017

[aussiespursguy]

Quite liked him as a player, but let's face it, with his injury record he would have just been another one on the physio's table pile up at the time.

He copped a really bad injury playing for Leeds in a Euro match in Denmark. That stuffed him and was never the same.
Can't really say the same would have happened if he signed for Spurs.

 

[Sweech]

Stop with the silly bollocks. Talking about players isn't hyping them. Suggesting they can do some kind of job or are a viable alternative to players like Kyle Naughton, Clinton Njie or Moussa Sissoko isn't hyping them, it's just common fucking sense.

Lesniak > Wanyama
Onomah > Alli

The list goes on.

In fact at some point or other you've stated a youth player is equal to or better than any of our starting XI who didn't come from the academy.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Lesniak > Wanyama
Onomah > Alli

The list goes on.

In fact at some point or other you've stated a youth player is equal to or better than any of our starting XI who didn't come from the academy.

I said if we were buying Wanyama to be back up to Dier then maybe Lesniak could fulfil that remit (As a back up busy **** for ad hoc games). And I said At times last season that Onomah can be more sure footed on the ball in midfield areas than Alli is at times (whilst acknowledging that Onomah is nowhere near as good as Alli in forward areas). That's not hyperbole. I've since been very fulsome of my praise of Wanyama. I've certainly not suggested dropping Alli for Onomah as an AM.

There have been times I've stated KWP had better attributes (technique, dribbling skills) than Walker. He has, or will have once he's been given the chance to hone them.

I've said Winks is better at moving the ball than Dembele but not as good defensively.

I've said I don't understand why Chiriches was deemed more viable than trying Veljkovic.

I've said a couple of our players (Pritchard and Oduwa for example) are as talented or more talented than a couple of players we've bought (such as Njie and Nkoudou) whilst acknowledging that there are big question marks over Oduwa 's mentality etc.

I've said I don't see the huge porential yet in CCV that some others do.

Never rated Townsend.

Didn't hype Kane at all. Didn't think he'd ever turn into what he has.

There are many academy players I don't overly rate.

Let me know if I've missed any.

None of the above is outrageous hyperbole, and nothing I say about any development player gets close to much of the silly fucking hyperbole we get around first team players like Dembele (no Dembele no Tottenham), Walker (best right back in the world), Alli (every failed nutmeg is sublime) etc..

I try and back up most of what I say with at least a modicum of logic. I still think we can be braver with the - BEST - of our development players, especially at the expense of purchasing mediocrity or squad fillers to block their way. I stand by that.

 

[Max123]

Apologies if already posted but here is the highlights from the England u19 Qualifiers, including the Edwards goal.
Play from 5.03 and you will also see a nice mazy run by Edwards.

 

[Spurrific]

I said if we were buying Wanyama to be back up to Dier then maybe Lesniak could fulfil that remit (As a back up busy **** for ad hoc games). And I said At times last season that Onomah can be more sure footed on the ball in midfield areas than Alli is at times (whilst acknowledging that Onomah is nowhere near as good as Alli in forward areas). That's not hyperbole. I've since been very fulsome of my praise of Wanyama. I've certainly not suggested dropping Alli for Onomah as an AM.

There have been times I've stated KWP had better attributes (technique, dribbling skills) than Walker. He has, or will have once he's been given the chance to hone them.

I've said Winks is better at moving the ball than Dembele but not as good defensively.

I've said I don't understand why Chiriches was deemed more viable than trying Veljkovic.

I've said a couple of our players (Pritchard and Oduwa for example) are as talented or more talented than a couple of players we've bought (such as Njie and Nkoudou) whilst acknowledging that there are big question marks over Oduwa 's mentality etc.

I've said I don't see the huge porential yet in CCV that some others do.

Never rated Townsend.

Didn't hype Kane at all. Didn't think he'd ever turn into what he has.

There are many academy players I don't overly rate.

Let me know if I've missed any.

None of the above is outrageous hyperbole, and nothing I say about any development player gets close to much of the silly fucking hyperbole we get around first team players like Dembele (no Dembele no Tottenham), Walker (best right back in the world), Alli (every failed nutmeg is sublime) etc..

I try and back up most of what I say with at least a modicum of logic. I still think we can be braver with the - BEST - of our development players, especially at the expense of purchasing mediocrity. I stand by that.

Walker is currently one of the best right backs in the world, tbf.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Walker is currently one of the best right backs in the world, tbf.

In the same way that Tesco home brand fish fingers are one of the best fish fingers in the world.

 

[C0YS]

Walker is currently one of the best right backs in the world, tbf.

There is nothing Walker could do to ever have B-C change his mind.

I think a lot of people vastly overrate our youth teams, others underrate it. But I do worry we've set ourselves an unrealistic expectation.

Out of a single talented group of youth players (say about 20 players) you would be lucky if more than 2-3 of those players make into top flight premier League footballers, yet alone at Tottenham. Another 2 will drop out of the league system entirely playing amateur football or retiring within 2-3 years of leaving tottenham and 4 will have semi-pro careers. Out the rest who make out a pro-career most will find themselves in league 1 or 2, some might go play for weaker leagues in normally the US, Scotland or Ireland if they are from the UK. 3-4 tops will play at championship level.

This roughly what has happened to both recent tottenham and other team groups, with exception of Man city and Chelsea. That group, to me, would be a success. There is always the chance that you have a group that does better than that expectation, but reality is the odds are that even the players we think as talented now, which haven't proved themselves in the first team, the vast majority will not make it at Spurs and may not make it as a PL footballer. I include Onomah, KWP, Edwards and CCV still in this group. I think all four are very talented, and have the potential to become players for the first team, but we don't know how players will adapt to first team football. Professional football is a step up from the youth teams, and making step up is not something guaranteed and its not just about talent, its about being able to adjust to set of circumstances, different intensity ect. That is not an easy thing to predict.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

There is nothing Walker could do to ever have B-C change his mind.

I think a lot of people vastly overrate our youth teams, others underrate it. But I do worry we've set ourselves an unrealistic expectation.

Out of a single talented group of youth players (say about 20 players) you would be lucky if more than 2-3 of those players make into top flight premier League footballers, yet alone at Tottenham. Another 2 will drop out of the league system entirely playing amateur football or retiring within 2-3 years of leaving tottenham and 4 will have semi-pro careers. Out the rest who make out a pro-career most will find themselves in league 1 or 2, some might go play for weaker leagues in normally the US, Scotland or Ireland if they are from the UK. 3-4 tops will play at championship level.

This roughly what has happened to both recent tottenham and other team groups, with exception of Man city and Chelsea. That group, to me, would be a success. There is always the chance that you have a group that does better than that expectation, but reality is the odds are that even the players we think as talented now, which haven't proved themselves in the first team, the vast majority will not make it at Spurs and may not make it as a PL footballer. I include Onomah, KWP, Edwards and CCV still in this group. I think all four are very talented, and have the potential to become players for the first team, but we don't know how players will adapt to first team football. Professional football is a step up from the youth teams, and making step up is not something guaranteed and its not just about talent, its about being able to adjust to set of circumstances, different intensity ect. That is not an easy thing to predict.

I honestly think this whole notion that anyone overrates - or over hypes - any of our youth players is a complete misnomer. Just like the first team squad there are players that divide opinion, players we like and rate more than others like and rate them, and then we have maybe one or two who we all tend to rate in varying degrees and the very odd one we can all see is special - like say Edwards.

I don't think I've ever read anyone say "this kid should be a guaranteed starter for the first team every week forever". Occasionally someone will say "this kid deserves to get some kind of chance" or "this kid deserves a better chance than his getting (or got)". Some kids get talked about as being very talented within the development structure but every single person who follows development football knows that talent alone will not get them a career and no one ever states that it will.

But you have to bare in mind some guys on here have been watching these kids for 5-7 years. They know more about them than most of us know about 95% of the players we get linked with signing, but look at the hype and furore they are allowed to generate.

The development integration is a valid topic, as a club we are one of the highest regarded academies in Europe I believe, if you look at every single kid whose seen meaningful game time from our academy, not one has let us down, even Townsend, who I didn't personally rate, played about 80 games and earned us 12m, Livermore, Mason, Bentaleb, Kane, Winks and Onomah, none have let us down or been an embarrassment, unlike many of the players we've bought, often with much more experience. Those players weren't all ultimately good enough or suitable, just like many purchases aren't but they prove that ddevelopment can fulfil a remit and is therefore a viable part of the conversation. And that's all they are, and like with any aspect of football, some will get talked up a bit and some won't. But that's no different to any other conversation about players.

 

[sammyj]

You never can tell with young players no matter how highly rated , but I think Marcus is gonna be massive in the the lillywhite

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

I like Stylanides, unfortunately the role of busy **** has the toughest job in football trying to make it now that Cm's have to be either Modric or Pogba to catch the eye.

Bizarre timing for such a statement when Kante is about to win PFA Player of the Year, Wanyama is in many people's opinion our player of the season, and Pogba is pretty much the most criticised player in world football.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Bizarre timing for such a statement when Kante is about to win PFA Player of the Year, Wanyama is in many people's opinion our player of the season, and Pogba is pretty much the most criticised player in world football.

But look at the routes those players have taken to get where they are. My point is that I think that busy ****s, functionaries and water carriers aren't easy to assess at youth level, or at the top of the desirable list for scouts and recruiters.

 

[IGSpur]

Lesniak > Wanyama
Onomah > Alli

The list goes on.

In fact at some point or other you've stated a youth player is equal to or better than any of our starting XI who didn't come from the academy.

I definitely don't agree with the Lesniak/Wanyama thing, and the Onomah/Alli thing was different due to positions, and noone has been proven wrong regardless.

My reasons for questioning our decision to sign Alli initially, is because the very few glimpses I had of him (Eng games), he was playing CM and I did not think he was any better than our best academy players in that position i.e. Winks and Onomah who I constantly used interchangeably, as I believed they were both good enough to be first teamers or squad players. Before we eventually signed him, I was told that he was a goalscoring midfielder something we do not have in the academy, let alone the first team and by then I realised he'd be a good signing and actually played in a different position, he is now essentially playing a second striker role and is a quality signing and one of my favourite players.

Either way most people questioned how we could possibly believe that Winks/Onomah were anywhere near Alli's level like I said, over and over again in a CM role.. Now despite only starting around 10 games for us and probably having 10% of league experience Alli has, I'm sure the majority of people on the forum would arguably prefer Winks over Alli in our CM, which was my point at the time, that I thought he was a better CM. That was my point that when one of our top young players is given a chance in their favouraite position they'll prove to be as good as most highly sought after young players. Other players in Winks' age group include Bishop and Maddison, who people wanted to sign at different points. Now I reckon people would rather have Winks as he has had the opportunity to prove himself.

Now hopefully, Onomah will get that same chance. I'm clinging onto the fact that at the same age Winks was still less experienced than Onomah, as he was not as highly regarded but has still proven himself a PL player. I hope next year Onomah will get a similar chance and like Winks will show why he was so high regarded and bring what he did for the u21s to the first team.

I know it has been mentioned before but it just goes to show the benefits of coming through a lower league side compared to a PL side, and England are missing out on so many top players as a result. Of those born in 96 the rated players now i.e playing in PL or Championship are Alli, Galloway, Winks, Bishop, Maddison, Gray, Morris. All bar Winks have something in common, they started out their development in the lower leagues, yet when they were in academy football the highly rated players were, Loftus-Cheek. Barker, Colkett, Alli (as he was playing first team football), Oduwa, Kent. All of those either played for Chelsea, City, Liverpool or us.

Now some will argue it is favouritism and coaches not looking at other clubs, but it is not the case. Lower league academy players still get selected but surely it also makes sense that the best academies, who can choose the best players and provide them with the best coaches will produce the better individuals. Yet these playesr will ultimately miss out based purely on the fact that they can't get into the first team as it is 'less of a risk' to buy from abroad. Yet if they were given chances, they'd no doubt do well. Winks has done well as has RLC in the very few appearances he has made. It's a sad situation. Hopefully this changes as the current u17 crop is excellent. I've read 3/4 different international coaches one dutch say that this current crop is the best group of youngsters he has ever seen. Technically, you can't tell me it is favouritism and that that coaches are overlooking the best players. Yet the same trend will follow and the lower league players will come through. General rant, not aimed at you swwech over

Regarding overrating players I don't see that being done here. What happened was we had a talented group of players all come through at once. Some people couldn't seem to believe it and that's fair. But the whole point in renovating the academy was to produce for the first team so why are people so surprised. Most on here just thought they could contribute to the first team not necessarily just start, but be squad players. Now As BG said above they are all in the squad in various forms. Only 3 players I can remember from recent times, were suggested as being introduced to the first team as squad players when they were in the academy i.e. u18s. Onomah at a time when he was dominating u21 football and highly rated by a lot of people in England, also at a time where our midfield consisted of Paulinho, Capoue, Stambouli and a lacklustre Dembele granted it was Poch's first year. CCV was another as he was strong and playing international u23 football but realistically noone thought he would actually get first team football, just argued he could be introduced, and a year later he was and has only had one bad game, against the strongest/biggest player in the football league. The other is Edwards who everyone on the forum loves despite impressing/playing/dominating in less u21/23 games in their respective positions than Onomah or CCV. Oh I forgot Veljkovic who was quality in the academy.

All the other players people have suggested to be introduced to the youth team were post academy including:

Winks: doing well at the moment, but of course things could change. But just by being given a chance in his best position some people think he is better than Dembele or could be the next Modric.

Pritchard: I thought he should have been introduced at 19 rather than buying both Dempsey and Sig, 2 great loans later and everyone is raving about him, but he then gets injured and misses his chance.

Oduwa: People call him a one trick pony, but at a time we had no wingers and he was dominating u21s. He could have come on in EL matches and looked great. You compare him to someone like Bolasie, Zaha, Gray, N'Jie or N'Koudou. Were he to have started out in Championship, France what have you, I don't doubt he would have been given a chance, and we may have been looking to sign him. As some of you know I follow quite a bit of youth football and I can think of other big instances of players not being rated but being given a chance then becoming a target for the masses. In his position the biggest ones that come to mind in recent years are Rashford and Dembele. Rashford fortunately got his chance via an injury crisis but was not even considered one of the best players in his own age group. He took his chance and people wanted to sign him. Similarly while I don't know a lot of international players, I hear about them as tournaments come along. I had not heard of Ousmane Dembele, France didn't qualify for u17 Euros, the one England won, he was just a standard French player in the French team. He gets a chance for Rennes and blows up. That's all it takes and coming on against tired legs if you have talent, pace and power, could really have helped us and him. Would have preferred him there than Onomah. All I care about is Spurs and everyone loves talking about signing the player before they get big why not bring them through. We're looking to spend 30m on Zaha or pay 10m doing cheap option on the ones from France when we have similar players of our own.

Similarly, others were slightly mooted at different points. Harrison had been mentioned, due to our lack of strikers, but noone ever suggested him being backup to Kane and but suggested he could act as a 3rd striker. Everyone was for signing a 2nd striker.
With youth football, you see players as first years and make your initial impression. If they standout you look to hope they repeat it in 2nd year before you consider them for the first team. Someone like Ogilvie was outstanding as a first year and iirc the 2nd year but then once injuries come in, you temper your expectations. Similar with Miller who as a 1st/2nd year to me looked as good as Winks, he then got an injury and Winks started taking off, but even still he still got to a level where Poch thought he could take him on one of the tours. And again as BG said noone thought Walkes would get this far so it's just honest assessments.

We all know football development isn't a linear process and players start out faster than others etc. but I always believe giving your best talents an opportunity and playing CC matches or EL just as subs in their best position with other 1st teamers as seeing what happens, could save us 30m or make us 90m. They;re not going to be the reason we get knocked out or lost a cup.

And for balance, as people say we overrate players. Other than Edwards, I don't think anyone has suggested that any player in the academy this year is ready for first team football. Some and I've seen this outside of this thread have thought Sterling could get a shot as a sub but even I don't think he is quite ready, but that is never acknowledged. I think our current group is excellent but they need at least another half season/season before I think the best will be ready to even be considered for sub appearances, but we just get accused of overrating everyone.

EDIT - initial spelling and grammar was poor, aware it is still not the easiest read, but hopefully it's a little better

 

[IGSpur]

There is nothing Walker could do to ever have B-C change his mind.

I think a lot of people vastly overrate our youth teams, others underrate it. But I do worry we've set ourselves an unrealistic expectation.

Out of a single talented group of youth players (say about 20 players) you would be lucky if more than 2-3 of those players make into top flight premier League footballers, yet alone at Tottenham. Another 2 will drop out of the league system entirely playing amateur football or retiring within 2-3 years of leaving tottenham and 4 will have semi-pro careers. Out the rest who make out a pro-career most will find themselves in league 1 or 2, some might go play for weaker leagues in normally the US, Scotland or Ireland if they are from the UK. 3-4 tops will play at championship level.

This roughly what has happened to both recent tottenham and other team groups, with exception of Man city and Chelsea. That group, to me, would be a success. There is always the chance that you have a group that does better than that expectation, but reality is the odds are that even the players we think as talented now, which haven't proved themselves in the first team, the vast majority will not make it at Spurs and may not make it as a PL footballer. I include Onomah, KWP, Edwards and CCV still in this group. I think all four are very talented, and have the potential to become players for the first team, but we don't know how players will adapt to first team football. Professional football is a step up from the youth teams, and making step up is not something guaranteed and its not just about talent, its about being able to adjust to set of circumstances, different intensity ect. That is not an easy thing to predict.

As BC says I don't think the overrating on here is anymore than anywhere else on the forum. Look at the furore Edwards has caused after featuring about 3 times for the first team, and now Winks. I have just been saying Winks shoudl be getting games and would be better than squad players we could buy in CM. And if he manages to translate what he did for u21s he would be excellent, and don't think he has done that quite yet, but am quietly impressed with how it's gone so far and am excited but now people are calling him the next Modric/Carrick or better than Dembele. Also when a young player comes through a la Winks, Bentaleb, Kane or Rose people will comment on how much better it is because of the passion and commitment they show which is another reason I would like us to use our best academy players as squad players as they'll have more desire. We all want the same things but for some reason believing a young player can do the job of a first teamer is outrageous.

As you say there will be failures and your ratios are basically that but you'd expect the better academies to produce more PL players but it doesn't work like that due to opportunties. I recently saw one of our old decent u18s players working in tesco, its a hard life but I don't think anyone here has any misconception about how many are expected to make it. We just call it as we see it. All I ask is that those who are highly rated, the best youth players, are given a fair chance as the only people to benefit will be us. We don't lose anything by providing the best youth players the conditions to allow them to show their ability. If they fail, no worries, we have more squad players. If they come off we have another potentially quality player in our squad/team with passion who we can identify us, which will either save or make us money, essential in the current climate. I know some might not handle that step up, or can't cope with the pressure, but that is its own variable, lets not throw others in like, poor team, random minutes, strange potions.

Some posters unanimously agree on certain players I'm thinking Onomah, Winks, KWP and Edwards (I'd say Prtichard but I know even @WindyCOYS wasn't a fan). Others not so much. BC said he doesn't rate CCV. BG and Rom don't like Oduwa so on and so forth, noone gets anything from just all jumping on a bandwagon and rating a player for no reason

 

[Lilbaz]

Speaking to my mate today. He said that edwards dad is a fan of spurs and goes and watches the youth games that edwards isn't involved with. He said that edwards agent is a bit of bastard though and is a tough negotiator.
Have no idea if that means anything or not just thought i'd pass it on.

 

[IGSpur]

Speaking to my mate today. He said that edwards dad is a fan of spurs and goes and watches the youth games that edwards isn't involved with. He said that edwards agent is a bit of bastard though and is a tough negotiator.
Have no idea if that means anything or not just thought i'd pass it on.

Ye his Dad is there at every youth match whether he is playing or not

 

[IGSpur]

Tottenham Academy‏@thfcacademy 12h12 hours agoTottenham U14s will compete in the Premier League Cup at Warwickshire University this weekend.

Tottenham Academy‏@thfcacademy 12h12 hours ago
Other teams involved include Chelsea, Manchester City, Liverpool & Bayern Munich.
Tottenham Academy‏@thfcacademy
Spurs won their first game 4-0 against Bayern Munich. They'll also play Chelsea and Everton in the group stage.

u14 side is decent from what I've seen. Have some nice players, could be further supplemented by a good u13 age group. Good start anyway

 

[Blake Griffin]

Spurs U18s (v @Boro): Whiteman, Eyoma, Brown, Skipp, Marsh (c), Tanganga, Griffiths, Oakley-Boothe, Sterling, Duncan, Bennetts

subs (v @Boro): Hinds, Shashoua, Omolabi, Patterson, Freeman (GK).

currently 3-0 up at ht. sterling, duncan and eyoma with the goals.

 

[IGSpur]

Tottenham Academy‏@thfcacademy 12h12 hours agoTottenham U14s will compete in the Premier League Cup at Warwickshire University this weekend.

Tottenham Academy‏@thfcacademy 12h12 hours ago
Other teams involved include Chelsea, Manchester City, Liverpool & Bayern Munich.
Tottenham Academy‏@thfcacademy
Spurs won their first game 4-0 against Bayern Munich. They'll also play Chelsea and Everton in the group stage.

u14 side is decent from what I've seen. Have some nice players, could be further supplemented by a good u13 age group. Good start anyway

Our u14s drew 1-1 with Chelsea in the 2nd game

 

[IGSpur]

Spurs U18s (v @Boro): Whiteman, Eyoma, Brown, Skipp, Marsh (c), Tanganga, Griffiths, Oakley-Boothe, Sterling, Duncan, Bennetts

subs (v @Boro): Hinds, Shashoua, Omolabi, Patterson, Freeman (GK).

currently 3-0 up at ht. sterling, duncan and eyoma with the goals.

Ended 3-1

 

[IGSpur]

You never can tell with young players no matter how highly rated , but I think Marcus is gonna be massive in the the lillywhite

Agree, if he is given his chance and opportunity to thrive in time I think he'd become a quality player for us