The Y Word

[wearetheparklane]

Context is only context for that person. For some people the context is of the word being 'taken back' from racists or used in solidarity as has been highlighted before in this thread. For other people the context is historic racial abuse and a few football fans trying to argue with them isnt going to convince them. For that reason I will not say that word, it's not a hard thing to do.

It's a nice idea to reclaim a word from racists but do you know what's even better? Not using it at all and letting it fade into obscurity.

 

[0-Tibsy-0]

Context is only context for that person. For some people the context is of the word being 'taken back' from racists or used in solidarity as has been highlighted before in this thread. For other people the context is historic racial abuse and a few football fans trying to argue with them isnt going to convince them. For that reason I will not say that word, it's not a hard thing to do.

It's a nice idea to reclaim a word from racists but do you know what's even better? Not using it at all and letting it fade into obscurity.

The context, here, of people understanding the history of the word Yid and it now being sung in a football stadium in a positive, inclusive way is the context that we are discussing.

Forming a view on the use of this word based solely on a different context means that one isnt considering the argument of context at all.

 

[0-Tibsy-0]

Context is only context for that person. For some people the context is of the word being 'taken back' from racists or used in solidarity as has been highlighted before in this thread. For other people the context is historic racial abuse and a few football fans trying to argue with them isnt going to convince them. For that reason I will not say that word, it's not a hard thing to do.

It's a nice idea to reclaim a word from racists but do you know what's even better? Not using it at all and letting it fade into obscurity.

Also, just out of interest, by an evolution of your point/argument should the Ashkenazi Jewish community stop using the word as well?

 

[0-Tibsy-0]

@NayimFTHL You've done a fuck load of disagreeing , which is fine, but without providing any enlightening thoughts?

 

[wearetheparklane]

The context, here, of people understanding the history of the word Yid and it now being sung in a football stadium in a positive, inclusive way is the context that we are discussing.

Forming a view on the use of this word based on a different context means that one isnt considering the argument of context at all.

I understand what you are saying but it's not the people that have that football context that predominantly find it offensive (and as i said in an earlier post i'm not sure it just 'non-football' people who find it offensive as the spurs survey demonstrated).

I suppose an interesting question is, if no one can see or hear it that would be offended by it, would it be ok? I think football is so prevalent in society and media, that it is inevitable that people who find it offensive will come into contact with it even if it used in a supposedly positive context (public use/singing, TV coverage etc). That in itself is enough for me to neutralise its supposedly positive context. I understand that for others that's not good enough, and that the upset caused to other people is a valid price to pay for their own self-perceived crusade cause or their freedom of speech. Not for me though, i'm quite content with not using one word out of the many that I know (over 100!)

As i said before my preference is to just let it fizzle out and be forgotten as we have many other words to unite and galvanise ourselves, and i think that's what the Baddiel's want too. Ironically though by mentioning it all the time they do the opposite. I think in time it would just fizzle out of use with the sterilisation of football anyway as I can't imagine it translates well to any other culture/language... might be wrong though.

 

[wearetheparklane]

Also, just out of interest, by an evolution of your point/argument should the Ashkenazi Jewish community stop using the word as well?

See my latest post - if the Ashkenazi Jewish community are in the view and social/cultural realm of normal people who find it offensive and use it to the extent that those people are exposed to it, then I think that community should ask themselves if they are still happy to use it. That's what I have done and how i have reached my decision, however the beauty of it is that everyone has their choice.

One thing not up for debate is that some people find it offensive - and from that you make your decision. It comes down to empathy for me.

 

[Gassin's finest]

@NayimFTHL You've done a fuck load of disagreeing , which is fine, but without providing any enlightening thoughts?

He may just be banned from posting in here. Do a search for his previous contributions on this subject. You'll soon find out why.

 

[arthurgrimsdell]

What utter nonsense. calling a Jew a "Yid" is as offensive as calling a black person the N word or calling a South Asian the P word. How the word came to be is irrelevant. It's the way it's used which make it a problem. When I was at school, kids often called me a Yid because I was Jewish. Sometimes when they would get in trouble they would just say it's because I was a Spurs fan, not that they knew I was, and sometimes they'd get away with it. So Spurs fans using "the Y word" has never made the world a better more inclusive place for me. It just let others abuse me with impunity.

The problem with this line of argument is that, in my presence, Jews have often referred to themselves as Yids. Many years ago I befriended some Jewish youths who played sunday football in what was known as the AJY and they invited me to participate, and they often referred to themselves in that way. This was many years before Spurs fans started to refer themselves in that way. Most of them were Spurs fans like me.
Black people have often referred to themselves as "N*ggers";
Pakistanis have often referred to themselves as "P*kis", indeed there have been photos in circulation of Pakistani cricketers happily wearing cricket gear in Pakistani colours with "Paki Power" emblazoned on them. In a similar way, just as those from Iraq are Iraqis, those from the Yemen are Yemenis, those from Azerbaijan are Azeris, those from Somalia are Somalis, those from Australia are "Aussies", those from New Zealand are "Kiwis", those from Kajikistan are Kajikis, those from Baluchistan are Baluchis, and so on.
When people use these names for themselves they can't really complain when others do so too.
With regard to other schoolchildrens' references to you as a Yid, firstly you have attempted to preclude the possibility of their references being because you are a Tottenham fan, because according to you, you were a quiet one, because they didn't know. I'm not convinced. Secondly, if they had instead constantly referred to you as a "Jew" or a "Jewboy" would you have felt any better?
I think the point here is not the use of particular words but the attempts at bullying, intimidation and exclusion that tend to accompany their use on some but not all occasions.
Banning words is in my view like banning books and banning opinions: fundamentally fascist and evil.

 

[ShelfWatcher]

We're not a Jewish club, we're an English club with a multicultural, multi country following.
As an English atheist, no way am I singing the Y chants
If others want to, that's up to them. I would prefer never to hear it again.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

@NayimFTHL You've done a fuck load of disagreeing , which is fine, but without providing any enlightening thoughts?

TBF in the several thousand pages over the very very many threads on the subject over many years on SC, there's hasn't been an enlightening thought on the subject for a considerable amount of time. It's all repeats in one form or another. The BBC of threads.

 

[NayimFTHL]

@NayimFTHL You've done a fuck load of disagreeing , which is fine, but without providing any enlightening thoughts?

I won't comment because il be jumped on and called that buzzword anti-semitic. People just want a reaction so I get suspended. I'd rather not give them the satisfaction.

 

[Tiffers]

I'm not a jew so I don't know if it gives offence to the jewish community but I have been a spurs fan from the early 50's and spurs were always known as a predominantly jewish club and ironically we were always known as one of the richest clubs in the FL.
I don't use the word myself but I have to admit that when groups of supporters use it either during or on the way to the game, e.g. walking up wembly way when we were playing there, or refer to a player when he's done well the " He's a Yiddo" Chant always gives me a thrill and I see it as an expression of love for our club and there's no hate when it's used like that.

 

[wrd]

@NayimFTHL You've done a fuck load of disagreeing , which is fine, but without providing any enlightening thoughts?

If you want his opinion then just look at Shelfwatcher's post because that was basically what he said the last time this thread came around. @Archibald&Crooks was on the money when he said this thread always ends the same because that is literally what has happened.

 

[ShelfWatcher]

I'm not a jew so I don't know if it gives offence to the jewish community but I have been a spurs fan from the early 50's and spurs were always known as a predominantly jewish club and ironically we were always known as one of the richest clubs in the FL.
I don't use the word myself but I have to admit that when groups of supporters use it either during or on the way to the game, e.g. walking up wembly way when we were playing there, or refer to a player when he's done well the " He's a Yiddo" Chant always gives me a thrill and I see it as an expression of love for our club and there's no hate when it's used like that.

Interesting to get that historical perspective. I started as a Spur in 1960, and never thought of the club as Jewish. I don't understand why we were seen as predominantly Jewish, when the majority of our support wasn't Jewish, and we didn't have any Jewish players.
It was only the board that had strong Jewish connections
We were founded by Englishmen, and probably all of them, certainly the vast majority, would have identified as Christians.
We had a big Scottish influence over the early years IIRC, and many of our greatest players came from all parts of the UK
I certainly welcome the strong Jewish element in our support and in our boardroom, no problem at all.
But a predominantly Jewish club as a characterisation of our 140 year history, don't agree

 

[Mattspur]

The problem with this line of argument is that, in my presence, Jews have often referred to themselves as Yids. Many years ago I befriended some Jewish youths who played sunday football in what was known as the AJY and they invited me to participate, and they often referred to themselves in that way. This was many years before Spurs fans started to refer themselves in that way. Most of them were Spurs fans like me.
Black people have often referred to themselves as "N*ggers";
Pakistanis have often referred to themselves as "P*kis", indeed there have been photos in circulation of Pakistani cricketers happily wearing cricket gear in Pakistani colours with "Paki Power" emblazoned on them. In a similar way, just as those from Iraq are Iraqis, those from the Yemen are Yemenis, those from Azerbaijan are Azeris, those from Somalia are Somalis, those from Australia are "Aussies", those from New Zealand are "Kiwis", those from Kajikistan are Kajikis, those from Baluchistan are Baluchis, and so on.
When people use these names for themselves they can't really complain when others do so too.
With regard to other schoolchildrens' references to you as a Yid, firstly you have attempted to preclude the possibility of their references being because you are a Tottenham fan, because according to you, you were a quiet one, because they didn't know. I'm not convinced. Secondly, if they had instead constantly referred to you as a "Jew" or a "Jewboy" would you have felt any better?
I think the point here is not the use of particular words but the attempts at bullying, intimidation and exclusion that tend to accompany their use on some but not all occasions.
Banning words is in my view like banning books and banning opinions: fundamentally fascist and evil.

Because a group refer to themselves in a certain way doesn't give you permission to refer to them in the same way. And yes, they can complain when others do, and rightly so.

FYI, they did refer to me a Jewboy and Jew, amongst a host of other derogatory names, so I'm quite sure what they meant when they called me a yid.

For you to say that your not convinced is pretty insulting and belittling of the abuse I recieved.

 

[Spurslove]

Context is only context for that person. For some people the context is of the word being 'taken back' from racists or used in solidarity as has been highlighted before in this thread. For other people the context is historic racial abuse and a few football fans trying to argue with them isnt going to convince them. For that reason I will not say that word, it's not a hard thing to do.

It's a nice idea to reclaim a word from racists but do you know what's even better? Not using it at all and letting it fade into obscurity.

...except rather than having it 'fade into obscurity' by not using it ourselves for all the right and positive reasons, we'd be giving free license to all those evil anti-semitic scumbags out there to use it against us for all the wrong and negative ones.

It's my impression that since we adopted the 'Y' word ourselves as a symbol of pride, hardly any of those Jew hating racist scumbags have used it against us and the Nazi salutes and hissing noises inside our own stadium have greatly diminished if not completely disappeared.

If WE stop using it, all the others will take it up again against us.

.

 

[Sputic]

It's disappointing that you seem to ignore the sentiment of actual Jews in the thread.

I never claimed that all Jewish Spurs fans find it offensive and upsetting. But it's well-established that a sizeable number of Jewish Spurs fans do, and Jewish fans of other clubs do.

That should really be enough for anyone with a modicum of empathy.

 

[SUIYHA]

Not sure if something happened to get this thread bumped again, and normally I don't bother replying to this anymore but as the game's cancelled I'll say what I always say. As a Jewish fan - I encourage everyone to sing the word Yid at our fans and players - loud and proud.

There are two key points here. First of all the word itself. Some people may say it's "offensive". That may be true in context. But there are lots of words that we use every day that in other contexts could be offensive. The key here is the intention. And as long as the intention of those chanting in the crowd is specifically to mean something positive associated with Tottenham, then that's all that you should be taking from it. If you know full well that someone is not referring to you when they say something, but you insist upon making it about you anyway - then I'm sorry...but that's your problem, and it's a very egotistical, negative character trait to have. To the non-Spurs supporting Baddiels of the world who have such a problem with it - this is literally nothing to do with you.

But what about the history of the word? Even if it's used in a different context today, it comes from a bad place and might bring back bad memories for certain people that hear it. Even then - the history means we should sing it louder still. Because the reason Tottenham adopted the Yid nickname is something to be celebrated. It was, and remains, a protest against anti-semitism. Non-Jewish fans declared themselves "Yids" when opposition fans were trying to fight the "Yids", putting themselves in the firing line to protect the Jews in the crowd. It was something completely unique. Because practically evey other anti-racism protest throughout history has taken on the form of either "Leave me alone" or "Leave my friend alone". But this was different. This was "I am Spartacus". Tottenham's fan base could have distanced themselves from the Jews, or like the Chelseas and West Hams of the league, they could have gone after them directly - instead they used the Yid movement to protect them. And I'm proud of that fact - I'm proud that my club is the one that took the stand, and that the solidarity continues to be shown today.

I'm not trying to downplay the experiences of those that have genuinely been taunted with this word in the past, and yes I acknowledge that it may bring back triggering memories for some of a certain generation - although I'd argue that people of that generation that genuinely cannot tell the difference between contexts of where a word is used are few and far between. We as a society always seem to focus on negatives, on what's wrong with something, on why soemthing might, potentially be perceived to be offensive in a certain light. I ask why not instead celebrate the unity, the message, the songs and focus on the positives instead?

 

[Freddie]

The context, here, of people understanding the history of the word Yid and it now being sung in a football stadium in a positive, inclusive way is the context that we are discussing.

Forming a view on the use of this word based solely on a different context means that one isnt considering the argument of context at all.

I agree about the context but ultimately its use causes a lot of people hurt, anger and distress. To stop using it would be a relatively mild inconvenience and we'll find other words to replace it, but it would prevent an awful lot more hurt. On such matters it's probably wise to take guidance from those it impacts most deeply, especially when the opposite side are people who quite like saying it but aren't nearly as impassioned about the subject.

The problem with this line of argument is that, in my presence, Jews have often referred to themselves as Yids. Many years ago I befriended some Jewish youths who played sunday football in what was known as the AJY and they invited me to participate, and they often referred to themselves in that way. This was many years before Spurs fans started to refer themselves in that way. Most of them were Spurs fans like me.
Black people have often referred to themselves as "N*ggers";
Pakistanis have often referred to themselves as "P*kis", indeed there have been photos in circulation of Pakistani cricketers happily wearing cricket gear in Pakistani colours with "Paki Power" emblazoned on them. In a similar way, just as those from Iraq are Iraqis, those from the Yemen are Yemenis, those from Azerbaijan are Azeris, those from Somalia are Somalis, those from Australia are "Aussies", those from New Zealand are "Kiwis", those from Kajikistan are Kajikis, those from Baluchistan are Baluchis, and so on.
When people use these names for themselves they can't really complain when others do so too.
With regard to other schoolchildrens' references to you as a Yid, firstly you have attempted to preclude the possibility of their references being because you are a Tottenham fan, because according to you, you were a quiet one, because they didn't know. I'm not convinced. Secondly, if they had instead constantly referred to you as a "Jew" or a "Jewboy" would you have felt any better?
I think the point here is not the use of particular words but the attempts at bullying, intimidation and exclusion that tend to accompany their use on some but not all occasions.
Banning words is in my view like banning books and banning opinions: fundamentally fascist and evil.

Dude, how people in Pakistani use the P word is totally irrelevant in this discussion. They aren't a minority in their own country and the word isn't associated with decades of racism like it is here. I'd say a minority of Pakistanis here would use it when referencing themselves (I've not heard it ever), and that minority certainly don't give anyone else licence to use it. Comparing it to "Iraqis" is deliberately bone-headed. It's the argument of a moron.

 

[McFlash]

@NayimFTHL You've done a fuck load of disagreeing , which is fine, but without providing any enlightening thoughts?

He always does on this subject, or in anyone saying they don't want our club to get involved with middle-eastern, sport washing blood money.
Man likes to post constant negs but very rarely adds anything of any value, anywhere on this site.