We hate Harry/"player"/Levy/Spurs...

Discussion in 'Columns' started by SimonSpur, Feb 13, 2011.

  • by SimonSpur, Feb 13, 2011 at 3:25 PM
  • SimonSpur

    SimonSpur Member

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    Hello folks.

    Over the past weeks/months, I have noticed a rising trend. No matter how well we are performing (and considering our injury list, our recent run has been nothing short of superb) or how we manage to grind out results, the sheer number of people posting anti-Harry or anti-"insert-player-name-here" bile is growing and often overwhelms any discussion topics.

    It is becoming tiresome and certainly off-putting. I am by no means saying that we should not criticise the team or Harry when it is deserved, but it seems some come on here with a set agenda to post negative and inflammatory bile regardless of the situation or the topic.

    I am not calling for anyone to be banned, because different opinions are part of what makes this site so interesting and thought-provoking.

    There are threads for discussing how much they hate Harry, or how sh*t the team is, but it happens every time we go a goal down in match threads, or in any number of other threads. It is pathetic, especially in view of how we have managed some incredible comebacks all season, and where we sit in the table. It puts me off posting, and sends me elsewhere online. I know I am not alone in this feeling.

    This is a brilliant site. I am only writing because I am keen for it to stay as the best Spurs site on the web.
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Discussion in 'Columns' started by SimonSpur, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. DiscoD1882
    Popularity always brings the wrong sort. Like moths to a flame. Its similar to a good pub. it starts of great you cant go there often enough and always have a good night. Then gradually the element that wants to ruin it for everyone turn up and the people who created the vibe end up moving on. and the pub then turns into a dive. It is slowly getting that way here. I cant even be arsed to read the match thread during games where we arent winning 10-0. It is just ridiculously negative. It is a shame as the people who want to debate get lost in the pages of argument and mud slinging.
  2. Gaz_Gammon
    I have taken (some say deservidly) some stick on here today, but i do find that however partriotic we must all be to defend our beloved Spurs i must beg to differ on your observation. I don't need to be within one hundred miles of WHL to see that Crouch strikes as much fear into opponents defences as Delia Smith. Rooney, Surez, Torres, and Fabregas yes but Crouch?

    As much as i like the big lad, and the contribution to his all round play of the team i cannot put the word fear anywhere near his name when he is on the pitch. Sorry, but if i am about to get another kicking then it's worth all the bruising.....:oops:
  3. felmonger
    Here are a few bullet points on what is a good thread.

    1. If I want to make a point I do not give a balanced view. The balance comes from those who think differently.

    2. This site covers the whole range of opinions. It is what makes it a good read. But none of us know the whole background story and none of us have to take any responsibility if we get it wrong. The folk we criticise make decisions. We only have opinions.

    3. However calmly or passionately we express our views, and however much we dislike certain opinions, or writing styles, the one thing we owe each other is respect. No-one should be castigated for any post. If some folk feel that certain other posters are disrespecting the rest of us by simply being destructive, then just ignore them.
  4. ChampsyDiscoWizard
    All I can say is that I have been a much happier spurs fan in the last few years, long may that feeling continue!
    PS. I look forward to MOTD more now aswell!!
  5. Sweetsman
    Did Ferguson and Wenger invest in the recent transfer window? Do Harry's team give up easily? Are we in the last 16 of the Champions League, a competition in which everyone thought we would be chumps? Is it the natural state of Spurs fans to be optimistic?
  6. birdm
    Ban Stokespur or Bud and you solve the issue. If we win gthe CL and PL this season they'd still smash Harry.

    Never ask them "how was your day"
  7. davidmatzdorf
    It's an admirable set of bullet points, but they miss the point a bit. You are assuming a level playing field, i.e., a common set of motivations. That's not the situation here. We have a large group of people whose desire is to discuss football with other like-minded people and then we have a substantial minority of people who are maliciously trying to prevent them from doing this by spamming the board with scores of vicious, attack-minded posts. Their intention is destructive and their objective is to bring everyone down to their level.

    I worked, both voluntarily and professionally, in co-operatives for about thirty years: co-operatives are ostensibly democratic organisations, quite like many internet message boards. They almost all failed in the end and the reason was always because democratic, egalitarian structures find it very difficult to deal with a small number of relentless, highly-motivated people whose objective is to destroy anything that does not follow their line and whose technique is to keep hammering away with their undermining behaviour until all of the positive-minded people walk away in disgust.

    The underlying reason why these egalitarian organisations were powerless to prevent themselves from being destroyed is implicit in this sentence: "everyone has a right to their opinion". That uncontroversial statement is very easily and commonly confused with the very different statement that "everyone's opinion is as good as everyone else's opinion". The result is that maliciously-motivated individuals operating in egalitarian structures are permitted free rein to spam and swamp and snow every discussion, because no one has the guts to tell them to shut up and fuck off, for fear of being perceived as anti-democratic.

    In the end, the people who have been putting their time and energy into making the organisation work just think "why bother?" and wander off, leaving the forum to the malicious and the incompetent - who are very often the same people.

    Free speech is great, until it gets to the point where malevolent people exploit free speech to prevent other people from having free speech. It's remarkably easy to do that and that's what's happening here. When people trash open discussion in the name of free speech, they should be expelled.
  8. pistolP
  9. Gaz_Gammon
    100% Spot On!
  10. felmonger
    Don't attribute assumptions to me David. I know the folk you refer to and, by and large, probably feel the same way you do. I differ only in how they should be dealt with.

    For some years I was part of a very small IT co-operative, (back in the 90's), and the situation, and the zealots you describe, are all too familiar. In my case they were not part of our group but heading up the support organisation. But there are many other reasons for co-ops failing. A discussion for another day perhaps.

    Dangerous stuff, this, David. Who are you going to get to judge what is malevolent?

    Our friends continuous drip feed of vitriol I find irritating. But to the best of my recollection these folk have never said that anyone should be banned. In fact their objective is to gum up our threads with reply posts , some of which I find just as objectionable as their own. So my reaction is simply to ignore them. Banning free speech in the name of the protection of free speech seems a bit illogical to me. But that is only my opinion!
  11. greaves
    Please excuse this repeat from another thread:

    There are some really excellent, thoughtful, imaginative contributors to this site, and I think recent posts confirm it. I really enjoy it and want to thank these contributors and the site-people in equal measure. This is an amazing football club to follow and has been for me since I started back in the 60s. The style, bravado, sophistication and sheer bloody nerve of our football - at its best - is like nothing on earth. And I mean nothing. It's a real shame to have the MB so diverted by a minority of, what seems to me, to be rather bitter individuals with a particular agenda. It is so hard to reconcile the tone and nature of their comments with the type of football espoused by the club they claim to support. No solutions I'm afraid but a big thanks again to the rest of you. You really do make it feel like a community.
  12. JoeT
    I actually wrote a post on this very topic this morning...and received positive responses from 'Pistol P' and MawSpurs'; thank you for this you two.
    I noticed that 'davidmatzdorf' estimates there are around 20 people on this site who desroy the democratic discussion process on here....pray tell me who these people are,? Go on, please name names.
  13. billnick
    It does seem to me that for every vitriolic anti-Redknapp/Crouch/Defoe/Whoever type there's somebody else who, perhaps understandably in defence of their own opinion, is in what I shall call a "pro-everyone" camp and refuses to acknowledge that anything could be better. This is surely just as inflammatory, and just as counter-productive to a decent thread.

    Personally I'm not "anti" anybody at Spurs and anybody at the club gets my full support, but I'll sometimes ask a question or raise an issue where, to me, I feel something is not quite right and should be addressed with the club. And I often get shouted down for this. I'm certainly often left with the impression that there's no chance of a discussion on certain issues and it's fairly commonly down to some "we used to be worse" factor.

    Free speech works both ways - you're going to attract more abuse from certain quarters with the constant "fingers-in-the-ears, there's-nothing-wrong-here" posturing and in that sense yes, it's admirable that you want to show your support for the team, but your opinion doesn't make you any more right than the guy who thinks different. I think anyone would notice that half the things which get argued about could never be proven.

    The point is, constructive criticism is not hate - but how many times does that label come up when somebody makes a criticism? (and I appreciate that there are some who can't be constructive with it).

    Personally, I think we're in a fantastic position compared to a several periods in the last 20 years, and not so much compared to other periods. Several times this year the manager and the players have stated that they feel we have a strong enough squad to challenge for honours, and I agree with them - that's why some of our performances can be quite disappointing. For the manager and players I'm certain that past finishes are irrelevent and they to a man would like to be doing better than they are now - what's wrong, as a supporter, of wanting the same thing? Isn't that what we're supposed to do?
  14. Arnoldtoo
    There are well reasoned and well argued points of view. Then there are the knee-jerk rants. The former are what make this site, and football in general, such a great pastime. As for the latter ...

    The most needy will always make the most noise. When they are personally diminished by a loss, blame must be deflected so that status can be preserved. It has happened since time immemorial and will not change while any of us are still typing. When it gets out of hand the Mods (may they smell the scent of roses forever) will sort it. Otherwise, you can either get involved in a slanging match with loads of passion and not a lot of good sense, or you can shrug, and move on.
  15. Jeremy
    I would add the OS bid to that list..probably put it on top.
  16. boris
    Well said, fella, and I disagree only with the bit I've bolded. If this were my site I'd cut off the dead wood. Keep it fresh and bright and all.
  17. davidmatzdorf
    it certainly is dangerous stuff and it's a very fine, tricky balance. There is a close analogy with the debate a few years ago about whether people like David Irving and other Nazi sympathisers should have the right to air their views. Of course, that's a much bigger, more dramatic and important issue, but the underlying principle is the same: should the privilege or right of free speech be extended to people whose intent is to use that free speech to deny other people their right to free speech, or other liberties?

    I don't think there's a cast iron right or wrong in either direction, but for the past 5-10 years I've found my own, formerly arch-libertarian views on this question moderating away from universal tolerance. And it was my experience watching 20+ co-operatives being wrecked from within that largely changed my views.
  18. boris
    How so?
  19. felmonger
    My experience is that, like many voluntary organisations, the hard graft is done by a handful of very keen individuals. The other members seem to be happy to go along for the ride. The problems arise in the motivation of these keen individuals. Many are driven by a genuine belief that the co-operative model can compete effectively in the market with any other type of organisation. And, as in any organisation, personal ambition plays a big part, for good and for ill.

    The complication in the UK is that co-ops are seen as political organisations and attract political activists. As a breed, these folk tend to talk hard and work hard in their own personal and/or party interests. The interests of the co-op members, who want stable and rewarding employment, comes a very poor second with these people. They move on up the slippery pole of success in the trade union movement, or as prospective candidates or into lucrative quangos leaving a co-op full of members with no experience of running a business and, thus, ripe for failure.

    This is an added reason for failure on top of all the usual commercial reasons which bring down many enterprises, however they are organised.

    . . . but I think I've gone a bit off subject!!
  20. spurslad64
    if we thought Redknapp or any player was wrong for Spurs, no matter what our tone or how much it upsets the people with opposing views, as long as it wasnt abusive to anyone, we should be able to say so.

    if we thought Redknapp or any player were great for the club, no matter what our tone or how much we upset the people with opposing views, as long as it wasnt abusive, we should be able to say so.

    As long as their is no kind of abuse to others, people should chill out a bit and realise that their not the only ones that matter.

    A quick read through this thread makes it clear that some people want this place all to themselves and look down on others that dont share the same opinion as them while some are more open minded to the views of others.

    Some people are easily pleased and will cheer the club all the way down the leagues not really carring what happens along the way, others wont be happy to settle for a glory year and will want to build on sucsess, some are easily taken in and some are a bit more shrewd, thats the way people are and its a shame that even if they couldnt get on in the real world some find it impossible to get along in a forum.

    Forums are a great place to debate the ins and outs, ups and downs about something we love but we cant go throwing our toys out of the pram if we lose a debate or someone comes up with a better argument for something that we had now and again, sometimes we have to hold our hands up and say fair play i haddnt thought of it like that.

    The one thing that brings everyone here is our love of Spurs, wether some worry about the future and take the present glory days as read or wether some just want to celebrate whats going on now and think the future is a bridge we'll cross when we come to it, it dosnt matter, we all love Spurs and we should take each post from every member as seriously as the next, as hard as it is sometimes.


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