Where is Dan Ashcroft when you need him?

[GeneralBurk]

or b) that he club employs moles to influence fans with positive spin on messageboards. Been watching too many movies perhaps?

I sincerely hope messages such as this don't discourage Dan from posting his insightful and astute comments.

Don't be so sure about that I know for a fact the missus used to post on a Blackburn Rovers site while working for them in PR and marketing. However in terms of DA, Rupstoh is blowing out of his arse.

 

[jamesc0le]

The Internet - Where men are men, women are men, and children are Interpol.

:rofl:

 

[Rupstoh]

Oh well. I got it wrong.

Apologies to Dan Ashcroft for doubting you.

 

[lily_lane]

Strange, I thought his Berba stance was entirely accurate?

He said we had no intention to sell, unless United meet our asking price. He also said they were trying to get away with £20m when we were asking for more like £40m, though the final figure was likely to be somewhere in between.

Since we eventually sold him for £30m (when our price had been met) I'd say that was pretty accurate?

As several posters have quoted me, including Bobbins above, I feel duty bound to reply as a courtesy.

However, I've read all of the Mod warnings - I've even discovered a Mod I never knew existed in all the months I've been posting here! GDS, so things must be serious - but in terms of querying DA's posts, that's what I'm doing, his opinions as a poster, long before the transfer window opened and he became known as an ITK. Dan himself has stated that he thinks it's healthy to question, and has no objections to it, so consequently I think I'm entitled to write this reply in the interests of debate. Though I myself was abused and criticised on COYS, even by a Mod, for declaring that the current opinion about Berbatov at the time was false. The view, largely stemming from Dan's posts on SC from April onwards, that he preferred to be a big fish in a little pond, had been loyal to Bayer for 5 years, had accepted, and was happy that if no bids came in for him that matched Spurs' valuation he would be content to stay, and was thinking about signing a new contract, IMO created a false impression of the man that did not tally with the quotes and stated intentions he expressed in Bulgaria, consistently so over the past year. From what I knew of him he would never have been content to stay. His one aim was to sign for MU. That was clear from last season, once Wembley and the UEFA Cup was over his head was already detached from Spurs.

On the eve of the season before the Boro game, that Friday he and his Agent had the meeting with Levy at WHL, I posted on SC that the Sun story stating they handed in a written transfer request was most likely true as the probable source of the quotes was Danchev, was met with derision, and because I roundly criticised the pair of them for doing that on the eve of our season and not back on July 3rd, Mil1ion accused me of "jumping on the bandwagon". I was not, I was merely trying to point out that the player wanted to leave now, as some still believed that he was a victim of press speculation, and somehow would stoically accept not getting a transfer for another season, and just get on with it. It was only after his unprofessional behaviour started and his reputation was trashed that everyone wanted him gone asap.

For those who don't know, and may be interested (only a handful, I know) but according to interviews given in Bulgaria, his transfer was well advanced before the Chelski match. As Petyr posted, the Citeh last minute bid only served to hold it up for several hours, and allowed Levy to reach the magical £30 mill figure at the 11th hour.

I'm rehashing this because a month later we still have threads, and Venables' newspaper articles, blaming his move for our poor start, but IMO we should've settled for a few mill less on July 3rd or whenever the first MU bid came in. We should've begun serious negotiations then, like only Levy can, and wrangled as much as poss out of them, and if it was 25 mill instead of 30, so be it, as then we could've concentrated our efforts into buying a replacement and I believe both Ramos and Poyet would've preferred this to happen aswell. So in that respect I have sympathy for the coaching team with the unsettled start. Poyet's views on Berbatov, in training and generally, as expressed to the cabbie who took him to and from the Kit Launch back in April was very revealing. According to the SC poster who provided that info, and later deleted it as the club objected, and is in marked contrast to the bland "Berba is always very professional" comments uttered by Ramos in press conferences at the time, though according to a SSN reporter on transfer deadline day, that was necessary for legal reasons as we're listed on the stock exchange. :shrug:

 

[stemark44]

I really don't know or care why this debate is dragging on.
Berbatov has gone and he won't be coming back!
Lets move forward,stop living in the past and beating it to death!

 

[AngerManagement]

I like the fact that Dan Ashcroft did not feel the need to even address the frankly rude and unnecessary remarks made about him.

 

[SpurSince57]

As several posters have quoted me, including Bobbins above, I feel duty bound to reply as a courtesy.

However, I've read all of the Mod warnings - I've even discovered a Mod I never knew existed in all the months I've been posting here! GDS, so things must be serious - but in terms of querying DA's posts, that's what I'm doing, his opinions as a poster, long before the transfer window opened and he became known as an ITK. Dan himself has stated that he thinks it's healthy to question, and has no objections to it, so consequently I think I'm entitled to write this reply in the interests of debate. Though I myself was abused and criticised on COYS, even by a Mod, for declaring that the current opinion about Berbatov at the time was false. The view, largely stemming from Dan's posts on SC from April onwards, that he preferred to be a big fish in a little pond, had been loyal to Bayer for 5 years, had accepted, and was happy that if no bids came in for him that matched Spurs' valuation he would be content to stay, and was thinking about signing a new contract, IMO created a false impression of the man that did not tally with the quotes and stated intentions he expressed in Bulgaria, consistently so over the past year. From what I knew of him he would never have been content to stay. His one aim was to sign for MU. That was clear from last season, once Wembley and the UEFA Cup was over his head was already detached from Spurs.

On the eve of the season before the Boro game, that Friday he and his Agent had the meeting with Levy at WHL, I posted on SC that the Sun story stating they handed in a written transfer request was most likely true as the probable source of the quotes was Danchev, was met with derision, and because I roundly criticised the pair of them for doing that on the eve of our season and not back on July 3rd, Mil1ion accused me of "jumping on the bandwagon". I was not, I was merely trying to point out that the player wanted to leave now, as some still believed that he was a victim of press speculation, and somehow would stoically accept not getting a transfer for another season, and just get on with it. It was only after his unprofessional behaviour started and his reputation was trashed that everyone wanted him gone asap.

For those who don't know, and may be interested (only a handful, I know) but according to interviews given in Bulgaria, his transfer was well advanced before the Chelski match. As Petyr posted, the Citeh last minute bid only served to hold it up for several hours, and allowed Levy to reach the magical £30 mill figure at the 11th hour.

I'm rehashing this because a month later we still have threads, and Venables' newspaper articles, blaming his move for our poor start, but IMO we should've settled for a few mill less on July 3rd or whenever the first MU bid came in. We should've begun serious negotiations then, like only Levy can, and wrangled as much as poss out of them, and if it was 25 mill instead of 30, so be it, as then we could've concentrated our efforts into buying a replacement and I believe both Ramos and Poyet would've preferred this to happen aswell. So in that respect I have sympathy for the coaching team with the unsettled start. Poyet's views on Berbatov, in training and generally, as expressed to the cabbie who took him to and from the Kit Launch back in April was very revealing. According to the SC poster who provided that info, and later deleted it as the club objected, and is in marked contrast to the bland "Berba is always very professional" comments uttered by Ramos in press conferences at the time, though according to a SSN reporter on transfer deadline day, that was necessary for legal reasons as we're listed on the stock exchange. :shrug:

It's a simple rule. Question the information, don't resort to abuse. You may have perfectly reasonable grounds for doubting what Dan or any other ITK posts—I'd love to believe Dan's assurance that Ramos is a tactical genius whose plays haven't come off, but my eyes tell me otherwise—and if you express those doubts reasonably there's no problem.

I'll pass over Rupstoh's nonsense, but Petyr's post seems to suggest that if one piece of info is wrong, everything else must be suspect. It doesn't work like that. There are idiots who claim to be 'ITK' but who are, in fact, sad fantasists. They're easy to spot after a few windows' experience. Others, Dan included, post in good faith. It's what they've heard from reputable sources. Unless those sources happen to be Levy, Comolli, Ramos or Alexander, there is room for doubt. There would be room for doubt even if one of those four blabbed, because circumstances can and do change in a matter of hours, let alone weeks.

 

[General Levy]

So this isn't a forum for debate, its a forum for "shut the hell up and protect the ignorant".

Shame. Ok I won't make a fuss, but let me just say I think the board rules really need a bit more flexibility. I've been warned more times here than any other board for saying things in debate that are absolutely fine on every other board I've been to. I think Rob & co need to have a serious think about what is and what is not debate and sometimes this place just isn't fun if you have to watch every other word you say through fear of offending someone.

Go to COYS and use your 'debating' technique on there towards the god like status ITK's and see how fast you are perma banned until 2189 AD

Of the Spurs boards I have visited this is the only one I know of that has the vBulletin interface that I'm used to using on other boards.

COYS uses v-bulletin. :up:

 

[jamesc0le]

Go to COYS and use your 'debating' technique on there towards the god like status ITK's and see how fast you are perma banned until 2189 AD



COYS uses v-bulletin. :up:

are you picking on people again general levy? you gonna get banned so hard..

 

[VegasII]

haha - perma banned. Nice word play.

 

[General Levy]

are you picking on people again general levy? you gonna get banned so hard..

:razz:

 

[jamesc0le]

mullet ban.

 

[yanno]

Firstly, Lily Lane's post #104 is entirely legitimate. Indeed, it bends over backwards to be fair. Personally, I always believed that Berba would end up at manure, and I chose to disbelieve claims that he was happy being a big fish in a small pond and would be happy to stay at Spurs.

Levy's negotiating style does have many strengths, but it also brings it own set of problems. He will play deals to the wire to get the best price (both with sales and purchases), and has achieved excellent results on many occasions because of this. However, it has also led to signings such as Rasiak. And in this window it meant we got top dollar for Berbatov, but failed to sign sufficient top quality replacements for our strike force, despite getting close to £60 million for Defoe, Keane & Berbatov.

One logical consequence of Levy's love of "to the wire" transactions, is that transfer dealings will often drag on throughout the window, and domino situations stack up. If x is sold, we will buy y, but if we can't get y, z or z1 is lined up.

Several ITKs assured us that if Berba went, we had Arshavin set to sign, and if that fell down, a deal was in place for Milito, or Sergio Garcia, or a South American striker (Palacio or Falcao). Whether this was true or not, agents and players will not wait till 5 to midnight on deadline day for us to seal top dollar for Berbatov before turning to them.

In short, domino deals are very hard to pull off on deadline day, and the ITK claims that we had numerous plans in place were - at best - optimistic.

Those of us who are aware of the primary source of particular ITKs, and who have professional experience of how "leaks" actually occur (as I do as a national journalist), will always interpret the information provided by an ITK in the context of their source. When I know that that source is close to our Gang of Four, that fundamentally affects my interpretation of the likelihood of the "information" being - in Catholic terms - infallible Truth.

 

[Petyr]

Firstly, Lily Lane's post #104 is entirely legitimate. Indeed, it bends over backwards to be fair. Personally, I always believed that Berba would end up at manure, and I chose to disbelieve claims that he was happy being a big fish in a small pond and would be happy to stay at Spurs.

Levy's negotiating style does have many strengths, but it also brings it own set of problems. He will play deals to the wire to get the best price (both with sales and purchases), and has achieved excellent results on many occasions because of this. However, it has also led to signings such as Rasiak. And in this window it meant we got top dollar for Berbatov, but failed to sign sufficient top quality replacements for our strike force, despite getting close to £60 million for Defoe, Keane & Berbatov.

One logical consequence of Levy's love of "to the wire" transactions, is that transfer dealings will often drag on throughout the window, and domino situations stack up. If x is sold, we will buy y, but if we can't get y, z or z1 is lined up.

Several ITKs assured us that if Berba went, we had Arshavin set to sign, and if that fell down, a deal was in place for Milito, or Sergio Garcia, or a South American striker (Palacio or Falcao). Whether this was true or not, agents and players will not wait till 5 to midnight on deadline day for us to seal top dollar for Berbatov before turning to them.

In short, domino deals are very hard to pull off on deadline day, and the ITK claims that we had numerous plans in place were - at best - optimistic.

Those of us who are aware of the primary source of particular ITKs, and who have professional experience of how "leaks" actually occur (as I do as a national journalist), will always interpret the information provided by an ITK in the context of their source. When I know that that source is close to our Gang of Four, that fundamentally affects my interpretation of the likelihood of the "information" being - in Catholic terms - infallible Truth.

Simply put, your posts make the forum better :clap:

 

[Russell]

I really don't know or care why this debate is dragging on.
Berbatov has gone and he won't be coming back!
Lets move forward,stop living in the past and beating it to death!

I thought this was a debate about whether or not it's worth us reading ITKs with even the recommended pinch of salt, which seems a fair enough topic.

On the Dan Ashcroft comments, I think it's quite possible that there were elements of truth on both sides. It is not simply a case of black and white, with one lot of information being completely right and everyone else completely wrong. Through the media (and also the ITKs) we are exposed to a lot of 'information', and each piece of that comes from a particular perspective and reflects one person/organisation's view and spin on things. So there can be several conflicting reports that are all correct in their own way. It's also the case that situations don't stay the same and people change their minds, their way of handling things etc. So what's true one day, is not always true the next.

e.g. I don't really see why Dan A saying that the club weren't going to sell Berbatov unless the right fee came in, and the player saying that he intended to go to MU were mutually exclusive. It seems that Danchev had been talking to Man U for months, so Berbatov's side of the deal was probably done. However a fee hadn't been agreed that was acceptable to Spurs. The fact that B's behaviour towards the club apparently deteriorated towards the end of the transfer window would seem to back up the fact that his sale was not definite. If Spurs had simply been wrapping him in cotton wool whilst the last few i's were dotted and t's crossed on the MU contract, there would have been no need for the circulation of stories about why he was not playing. IMO these particular stories were detrimental to his professional image and would not have come out if the sale had been going ahead smoothly behind the scenes. Instead he would just have been said to have some minor injury or one of the other old pre-transfer chestnuts.

Anyway, I like reading Dan Ashcroft and the other ITKs. What they say shouldn't stop us from forming our own views though, for exactly the reasons that Yanno so eloquently states.

 

[General Levy]

yanno for moderator