Who would be an acceptable replacement for Berba?

[Michey]

A season or two ago Zlatan won the vote of his peers for the best player in Seria A ahead of Kaka which says it all. If you read interviews with players and managers in Italy about Zlatan you wouldn't come up with such a comment.

Don't even try to explain to him.....he's never seen European football and actually believes what is written in the british tabloids. Let him live ignorance.

:wink:

 

[TaoistMonkey]

In answer to the question.

acceptable replacements for Berbs would be:

C Ronaldo
C Fabregas
W Rooney
Ronaldinho
Kaka
Gerrard
Torres

Don't think there's much chance of getting any of them, so we really need to keep Berbs.

You have to be joking.

The only person i'd take out of those would be Kaka.

Gerrard and fiberglass? they WISH they were as good as berba and had his footballing brain.

 

[striebs]

OK. Where to begin. At the beginning. I always maintained (again not view many agreed with) that Carrick was wasted in the role that Jol gave him. We had three perfect partners who could have played the holding role with Carrick playing the more forward/creative role further up the pitch where he could do more damage. What most seem to hail as "Jol's making of Carrick" was IMO just another one of Jol's mistakes.

In Carricks first season , he virtually stayed planted in the middle of the pitch . Mr Centre Circle .

In his second he ventured further forward .

Still feel gutted that we were deprived of seeing what Carrick could have become for us .

On the Berbatov replacement , Luca Toni as a stand in ?

 

[Doctor Who]

zlatan maybe is good player but is a fag , i don`t want fag in the team

 

[DoublePivot]

Kevin Kuranyi. He's under utilized in the capacity of holding the ball under Slomka, but he has the attributes that would fit under a Spanish double pivot formation with the ability to strike, distrubute, hold, target and head. Nobody but nobody is a better air threat than KK.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

B-C: interesting comments as always, and I think we all want to see if Huddlestone can become the creative CM we desperately need. One of the major disagreements in this thread (& the "Huddle" one) is whether he can become that player in the next season or so.

However, I do disagree with you about Riquelme. Riquelme has never been successful in a flat midfield four. At Villarreal, they either played with a diamond 4-1-2-1-2 with Riquelme at the tip, or a 4-2-3-1 which meant Riquelme had two DMs behind him. Argentina also usually play with a diamond midfield with Riquelme as a dedicated ACM. In all these formations, Riquelme has almost no defensive responsibility. His job is to show for the ball when Argentina win it, and then use it in one of two ways: i) to dictate the tempo; ii) to open up the opposing defence with a through ball.

The problem with the diamond is that your width comes from your FBs. Now, once Bale & Gilberto are fit, we will have very attacking FBs. But the one formation Juande has hardly ever played this season is a diamond. And his Sevilla team & comments from people like Balague & Alvarez suggest Ramos likes playing with wingers and attacking FBs.

If we had signed Riquelme (as the player himself suggested we nearly did in November), my suspicion is that we would have switched to a 4-2-3-1. In other words, 2 CMs behind Riquelme, two wingers/wide midfielders, and only one striker - usually Berba. In other words, Riquelme would have taken Keane's place, and would have taken the playmaker/fulcrum role from Berba.

Now I do think Huddlestone offers considerably more defensively than Riquelme. And we'll see over the next few months whether his style of play is appropriate for a "Ramos football" CM. My hunch is that he will play a lot of football in CM for us next season. (Depending on who we buy, and who the opposition is, I wouldn't be surprized to see him getting more games at CB as well.)

To be honest Yanno, as with many of our players, it's a conundrum. Huddlestone will offer you more defensively than Riquelme (who did often play in various formations other than 442 and was in same games deployed almost as a No.10) but is no-where near the same level of creativeness or
inventiveness or movement. You know the way players like Riquelme have that craft about them. Impudence. Huddlestone doesn't really have that IMO. Just a very good passing technique and medium speed vision.

My hunch is that unless we sign an uber CM to play next to him or we switch to a new formation we won't see us much of Huddlestone as we have the last two seasons.

I really won't mind being proved wrong as any player like Huddlestone deserves time to mature, and as I said previously, it could be a case of putting different players around him, combined with him stepping up a gear under the guidence of Ramos. Just as IMO Carrick was so much more impressive whenever Davids was next to him.

But if I'm honest, I have a hunch that he will be a little to pedestrian for the way (formation/style) that Ramos (and most of us) would like to see us play.

 

[yanno]

To be honest Yanno, as with many of our players, it's a conundrum. Huddlestone will offer you more defensively than Riquelme (who did often play in various formations other than 442 and was in same games deployed almost as a No.10) but is no-where near the same level of creativeness or inventiveness or movement. You know the way players like Riquelme have that craft about them. Impudence. Huddlestone doesn't really have that IMO. Just a very good passing technique and medium speed vision.

Riquelme failed at Barca - in part because he was apparently signed by the Barca DoF against coach van Gaal's wishes. Van Gaal didn't think Riquelme could play in CM in a 4-4-2, and stuck him wide left. Where - fairly predictably - Riquelme was very unsuccessful. So he was loaned out to Villarreal who essentially built a team, and a formation, around Riquelme.

When Rijkaard took over at Barca, Riquelme was still their player. But Rijkaard decided to change his formation and build his team around Ronaldinho, and didn't recall Riquelme from loan.

My conclusion? Riquelme is a passing genius but not a complete player because the team's formation has to be set up to play to his strengths and compensate for his weaknesses. And over the years, top coaches like van Gaal, Rijkaard and several Argentine national coaches have not been prepared to do so.

But if I'm honest, I have a hunch that he will be a little to pedestrian for the way (formation/style) that Ramos (and most of us) would like to see us play.

Poulsen was Ramos' first choice in CM for Sevilla and, as an athlete, he's very pedestrian. He's slow and an average passer of the ball. He simply sits, breaks up the play, and covers when FBs like Dani Alves bomb forward. So, for a Ramos CM, lack of pace is not necessarily a huge problem.

 

[sharky_marky]

Dean Ashton? I think this guy has a bit of Teddy Sheringham class and vision in him, combined with great strength and good finishing ability. If WHAM offered us him for Bent, I would be inclined to accept their offer.

 

[snake1]

Nah, I prefer Bent to Ashton. But that's just my opinion.

 

[wirE]

I can mention a few: Huntelaar, L.Fabiano and Fred

 

[TaoistMonkey]

Dean Ashton? I think this guy has a bit of Teddy Sheringham class and vision in him, combined with great strength and good finishing ability. If WHAM offered us him for Bent, I would be inclined to accept their offer.

FFS.

You think Dean Ashton is an adequate replacement for Dimitar Berbatov?

i'm hoping i missed something here and you're joking.

 

[SpurSince57]

I can mention a few: Huntelaar, L.Fabiano and Fred

None of whom resembles Berbatov in the slightest.

 

[simyid]

berbatov is his own player knowone plays like berbatov he has his wn style the berba way of doing things if we sell him there is no chance in hell we will get a player half as gd as berba to join us he is the best we have had and will have for years he is litrally irraplaceable you will never find a more perfect partner for keane the berba he is so unique i have never seen a striker dictate the play and tempo like he does in conclusion any player you mention wouldnt fithe bill and if you do mention a player who would he wouldnt come to us

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Riquelme failed at Barca - in part because he was apparently signed by the Barca DoF against coach van Gaal's wishes. Van Gaal didn't think Riquelme could play in CM in a 4-4-2, and stuck him wide left. Where - fairly predictably - Riquelme was very unsuccessful. So he was loaned out to Villarreal who essentially built a team, and a formation, around Riquelme.

When Rijkaard took over at Barca, Riquelme was still their player. But Rijkaard decided to change his formation and build his team around Ronaldinho, and didn't recall Riquelme from loan.

My conclusion? Riquelme is a passing genius but not a complete player because the team's formation has to be set up to play to his strengths and compensate for his weaknesses. And over the years, top coaches like van Gaal, Rijkaard and several Argentine national coaches have not been prepared to do so.



Poulsen was Ramos' first choice in CM for Sevilla and, as an athlete, he's very pedestrian. He's slow and an average passer of the ball. He simply sits, breaks up the play, and covers when FBs like Dani Alves bomb forward. So, for a Ramos CM, lack of pace is not necessarily a huge problem.

Poulson is not as quick across the ground as some (Zokora or jenas maybe) but he is quicker across the ground than Huddlestone and more aggressive.

This is the "conundrum" part of my post. He's definately not quick enough or aggresive enough to play DM and he's not got that super quick brain that great AM's have.

And Riquelme may have been "rejected" by Barca twice but hey, come on, they are possibly one of the few sides who could afford to reject a talent of his kind in the world. And while Barca were rejecting him he was taking Villareal to withing a penalty (which he did fuck up) of a CLcup final (or was it semi). And "several" Argentina coaches have managed to play him too despite having some pretty tasty competition.

Can you imagine any of the top 4 sides building a team around Huddlestone ?

As you rightly pointed out Riquelme was a different player to huddlestone alltogether. He was more like a No.10. A floater given license to rome and play. The comparison was a pretty poor one I thought (Can't remember who made it now) - I just mde a bit of a pigs ear of saying why.

But maybe you think the comparison has merit ?

 

[ben_the_yido]

berbatov is his own player knowone plays like berbatov he has his wn style the berba way of doing things if we sell him there is no chance in hell we will get a player half as gd as berba to join us he is the best we have had and will have for years he is litrally irraplaceable you will never find a more perfect partner for keane the berba he is so unique i have never seen a striker dictate the play and tempo like he does in conclusion any player you mention wouldnt fithe bill and if you do mention a player who would he wouldnt come to us


its not a question of wanting to sell him its a question of him wanting to leave

 

[simyid]

its true but what im saying is if we sell him we cant go any direction but backwards

 

[dirtydave]

if Ramos lost Berbs then id expect to suddenly see lots more leave too and a fresh midfield and attack created, emulating his Sevilla side.

i think Ramos would like to build a more fluent even team not reliant on one spearhead figure.

given the oppurtunity i believe he'd get in Kameni, Jarque, Albelda, Tiago, Capel, Kanoute and perhaps Fabiano.

 

[KeaneIsKeane]

I think we need Diego. I know we have little chance of getting him, but if we could break the bank for him it'd be worth it.

 

[DoublePivot]

I think we need Diego. I know we have little chance of getting him, but if we could break the bank for him it'd be worth it.

Here's a question I have. Obviously I think Diego is a fantastic player. But I have often just stated that Ramos doesn't play with #10's. Is this true, though? Perhaps he has always preferred the double-pivot in central midfield because that is a Spanish preference, but would like to move on from it. Or perhaps he would rather chop off a finger rather than move away from the DP. What do people think?

I kind of feel that he wants the two holders/DM's at the heart and not a #10, which would require a superb ball winner, which we surely don't have or a change to a 4-5-1, which doesn't seem like Ramos at all. If that's the case, we are out of the running for Diego and VDV by default more than by finance.

 

[yanno]

Poulson is not as quick across the ground as some (Zokora or jenas maybe) but he is quicker across the ground than Huddlestone and more aggressive.

This is the "conundrum" part of my post. He's definately not quick enough or aggresive enough to play DM and he's not got that super quick brain that great AM's have.

Thinking it through, Poulsen & Albelda (two D/CMs with whom we've been persistently linked) are fairly similar players: aggressive, tough, excellent team players who fill in the gaps when flair players bomb forward. But neither of them are very fast, and both are simple rather than creative passers.

B-C: you're correct that Huddlestone will never be as aggressive as Poulsen or Albelda. Maybe Juande does value aggression in his holding CM, and this is why he's playing Huddlestone alongside a dedicated DM in Zokora. Personally, I'm not convinced "aggression" is crucial for a DM: one would never describe Carrick as aggressive, but he shielded the back four splendidly.

I still think Huddlestone's "speed of thought" will appear much quicker once we've signed more wide players in the summer, and our CM players have options breaking at speed on both flanks (something we're sadly lacking at the moment).

And Riquelme may have been "rejected" by Barca twice but hey, come on, they are possibly one of the few sides who could afford to reject a talent of his kind in the world. And while Barca were rejecting him he was taking Villareal to withing a penalty (which he did fuck up) of a CLcup final (or was it semi). And "several" Argentina coaches have managed to play him too despite having some pretty tasty competition.

Can you imagine any of the top 4 sides building a team around Huddlestone ?

As you rightly pointed out Riquelme was a different player to huddlestone alltogether. He was more like a No.10. A floater given license to rome and play. The comparison was a pretty poor one I thought (Can't remember who made it now) - I just mde a bit of a pigs ear of saying why.

But maybe you think the comparison has merit ?

For me, the point about Riquelme is that he is the archetypal No 10, an out-and-out ACM who is a genius at dictating the tempo and spotting the through ball. However, coaches like van Gaal and Rijkaard have concluded that he can't play CM in a flat midfield four in a modern 4-4-2. Barca weren't prepared to change their whole formation to accommodate Riquelme. Some Argentina coaches have built a team around him; others have left him out in the cold

I'm still fascinated that Riquelme stated that we made him an offer in October, shortly after Juande joined.

My interpretation? If world class players are available, Ramos will encourage Levy & Commoli to try to sign them. If we had succeeded in signing Riquelme, then Ramos would have backed his ability as a coach to create a formation that got the best from our world class attacking players: Riquelme & Berba. It would have been fascinating to see how he accommodated them both.

The two most likely formations for Ramos to adopt would be a diamond 4-1-2-1-2, and a Spanish 4-2-3-1 (with Berba as the lone striker). My suspicion - and this partly addresses Deadwood Dem's point - is that he would have preserved the width, and switched to a Spanish 4-2-3-1: two holding CMs behind Riquelme, two attacking wide players and only one striker.

B-C: I don't think Ramos will be changing our formation next season to accommodate Huddlestone as a Number 10 ACM. However, I do think Huddlestone will play a lot of games in CM and at CB next season.