Do we look like we CAN turn a corner?

[TottenhamMattSpur]

If you title a thread with CAPITAL LETTERS, do you automatically attract a certain type of poster?

Like one who's name starts with a lower case "K" for instance?

 

[spursfan77]

It's probably already been said but I say no at the moment. We've played well in 2 out of 20 odd games. That's very shit.

 

[kremlyn]

Like one who's name starts with a lower case "K" for instance?

Oooookkkkaaaaayyyyyy...

This is awkward.

 

[stemark44]

We might be able to turn a corner but we need to get off this fucking roundabout first.

 

[muller_spurs]

I'd quite like us just to be able to take a corner...

(Small gradual steps and all that!)

 

[StartingPrice]

The Everton match was really positive, we just need to see if we can use that as a template and devise an alternative game-plan at home to combat a defensive side who try to stifle us (a big 'if', I know!).

I hate saying this is the whole point - but this is the whole point. Pochettino isn't just taking over a young squad, at the start of its development (and NOT in the middle of it, though folk still insist on comparing it with Redknapp's finished article squad and not Redknapp's just inherited from Wandery Ramos Squad), he is also having to learn and learn quickly himself as his starting premise employed at Espanyol and Southampton is no longer valid. And what was that starting premise? It was that teams would come out and play against them. Teams would, pretty much, be prepared to attack them. Even relegation struggles would be ashamed, in front of their own fans, in particular, to sit deep, play for a draw and hope for one opportunity to hit them on the break and nick a goal.

Long since, under Mr Redknapp, the average EPL team realised that we could bluddy well play, and if they came out against us and left space behind we could exploit it. They started being wary. Mr Redknapp struggled to break these teams down - he bluddy well did, stop living with blinkers over your eyes and a few select highlights. AVB struggled to break these teams down. InterTim struggled to break down the basic modes of communication. Pochettino hasn't even had half a season. Jeeeeessssshhhhhh!

I'm not trying to poop all over your party, but these kind of arguments bugs me slightly. "Great, everybody else sucks so we are doing quite well whilst sucking". Excuse me for having higher expectations for my team. Additionally, we haven't actually proven that we are able to close that gap. Every time we could we've stumbled our selves. It doesn't matter if it's 1 or 100 points, if a gap can't be closed, it means we were to poor.

This is a total non sequitor. The first half does not in any way contradict the second - it merely serves as a didactic tool to prioritise your argument. The fact that everybody else sucks, as explained below by TM, is part of a proposition that things are being blown out of proportion. Other teams are struggling, therefore, firstly maybe we are encountering the same problems, maybe there are a lot of teams at present capable of exploiting better teams who are going through a period of transition and/or low on confidence. It is possible to make that argument and also have higher expectations for the team that what we are seeing ATM during that transitional period where, similar to several of the higher up clubs, inferior teams are exploiting our weaknesses. Secondly, we are not too far adrift and a sudden upturn in form, similar to Newcastle's, could see us catapult up to the top end of the league (and is no less possible, nor any more predictable than Newcastle's).

Thought we had turned the corner with everton and chelsea performance but typical spurs we take two steps back.

So, your argument is that we can't have turned a corner unless we are performing consistently. I disagree, I believe we can show signs of turning the corner while still not performing consistently. Indeed, I would say that playing consistently would be the end product whereas the corner turning would be part of the journey on the way to the end product.

Just cause others are playing shit doesn't mean we should accept our team playing shit.

That's not the argument he's making.

At the moment we are worse under Poch than we were under Sherwood and that's a pretty damning indictment.

Pochettino is trying to do something fundamentally different to Sherwood (or Mr Redknapp, for that matter). The former is looking to implement change for long-term effect, the latter was looking to get back to basics for immediate results.

If turning a corner you mean challenging for a CL place, then a massive NO! We are miles from where we would like to be in that respect

We are not miles from challenging for a CL place - we are a couple of points and an upturn in form no more improbable that Newcastle's and no less predictable.

We'll never truly turn the corner with our current business plan. We can blame managers and players all we want, but until we keep hold of our best players (game changing players), we'll forever bounce back and forth on progress.

When you compare the team of a few years back to now, it's unrecognisable...no consistency no progress.

The current business plan that has seen us punching above our weight?
It is simple, really: if you have one great player and a mediocre squad, how do you improve it if you can't/won't indulge in a massive net spend (that is still going to leave you way behind clubs who have far more money and resources than you)? Do you keep the one great player and 10 mediocre players? Or do you sell him - he is demanding to go anyway - or do you speculate and reinvest the money on 5 new players. Now, supposing you speculate: 2 of the players flop, 2 turn out to be good squad players and one turns out to be great. Now you have 1 great player, 2 good players and 8 mediocre players. But the great player starts agitating to leave. So you sell and speculate on 5 new players. Same again, 2 flop, 2 are good and 1 is great. Now you have 1 great player, 4 good players and 6 mediocre players. Same again, and now you have one great player, 6 good players and 4 mediocre players. You can see that the percentage of mediocre players is being reduced over time.

It is improvement, it isn't spend £300 million on World stars improvement, but it is improvement. And although you are going through a period of adjustment every time you sell your great player, you are not just going back and forth - every time the dust settles the squad is a bit better, the percentage of good players higher and the percentage of mediocre players is lower. It takes patience. IMHO, where we are NOW is where we were when Wandery Ramos was fired, only we have a better squad - this isn't being recognised because of the insistence on comparing the fully evolved Redknapp squad with the fresh as a baby's arse Pochettino squad. The two aren't comparable. If you want to compare the two, you either have to wait two years for this squad to develop and them compare it to Mr Redknapp's fully fledged squad, or compare this squad with the one that Mr Rekdnapp inherited from Wandery. Simple!

Whilst this is true. Arsenal have consistenly sold their best players and have continued to do well. so the business model does work. It is the players we are replacing them with that is the problem. Therefore this is down to scouting and purchasing of sub standard players.

Arsenal have been steadily deteriorating - just ask their fans. They have broken their business model the last two summers by signing £40 million players. Who have they replaced where they have made far more from the replacements than they did for the original players sold? There plan is fundamentally flawed as Whinger's intransigent refusal to offer more than one season at a time to over-thirties players, or, indeed, to manage player's contracts with any alacrity has led directly to them losing a host of top talent for zero transfer fees. Not something that can be aimed at Mr Levy, who learned his lesson from Judas-Gate! Whinger keeps on strengthening and upgrading the strongest part of the team, the midfield, while failing to improve the defence significantly (if anything, it is weaker). They are barely better than us this season, and if they are at all it is principally due to one £40 million signing who contradicts the Whinger codex. The Goons business model application is so so much better than ours that we closed a once massive gap to them barely squeezing past us on the last day of the season - and then only due to decisions/player actions so dubious that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if money changed hands.

In fact, it is so much superior that their management of their significantly greater financial clout has seen them go from ridiculing us by belittling us by claiming we were nothing to them and United were their true rivals, to them reinventing the meaning of St Totteringham's Day to something completely different to what it originally was just so they could childishly continue celebrating it in order to hide their nerves as they know they are lucky to finish one place, one point or even goal-difference above us now. Folk see what they want to see, LoL.

Yep this is true. Arsenal have always bought players that fit the system in which Wenger wants them to play. We just sign new managers and expect them to build around dysfunctional players. We are atrocious in all aspects of recruiting. Daniel Levy for my money has tried pissing in the wind far too often when it comes to footballing decisions. Makes you consistently question the football education of Levy every-time he makes a decision. How much blind faith does he need to put up with before he seriously doubts his role in all of this???

The only players Whinger buys who fit into their system are central midfielders. Amazing we have closed the gap on them to nothing despite their significantly greater financial muscle given everything about our club is so crap, and in such turmoil. Why don't we just have a lawn-sale and be done with it?

we haven't been thrashed under Poch like we were under AVB and Tiny Tim. Small blessings innit but an improvement all the same...except for Man City and we were a man down

Nope.

Do you dislike Levy?

Why is this relevant? I would imagine Mr Levy would be my dinner guest from hell - he is almost exactly the opposite of me in every way. doesn't stop me believing he has done much better than he is given credit for and that a lot of the criticism he gets is hysterically over the top (to the point of being histrionic).

 

[Chris12]

That's not the argument he's making.

Then what his the argument he is making?

 

[StartingPrice]

Then what his the argument he is making?

Everlasting Seconds made a similar comment to yours and I explained the argument (I think) he is making in my response to him. But, just for you, I'll C&P:

"Other teams are struggling, therefore, firstly maybe we are encountering the same problems, maybe there are a lot of teams at present capable of exploiting better teams who are going through a period of transition and/or low on confidence. It is possible to make that argument and also have higher expectations for the team that what we are seeing ATM during that transitional period where, similar to several of the higher up clubs, inferior teams are exploiting our weaknesses. Secondly, we are not too far adrift and a sudden upturn in form, similar to Newcastle's, could see us catapult up to the top end of the league (and is no less possible, nor any more predictable than Newcastle's)."

 

[gerishep]

There is no way we are turning a corner. We had 3 good years under Redknapp but he had Bale and Modric playing for him, who we sold . We are now back to normal.
The only way we are turning a corner is if someone takes us over when the ground is built and wants to spend money and pay high end wages.

 

[spursfan77]

Repeat after me - Players will not stay a Spurs when the can move and triple there salaries - oh and then also win something as a bonus.
This is not a Spurs thing, it is all clubs except Barcelona, Real, Chelsea and City. Even Bayern's players are not safe.

It has nothing to do with business plans. It is economic reality.

Dont mention Schneiderlin - the only reason we did not get him is we could/would not pay the £28-30m Soton wanted. Money plain and simple. Get used to it.

Trouble is, we already pay high salaries, hence why it's difficult to get rid of players sometimes but we don't pay mega salaries as we can't afford it. It's quite a situation to be in and I suspect is a reason why we haven't signed some players.

Imagine what adebayor, Soldado and paulinho etc are being paid and us not being able to use that towards buying a really good player.

 

[SteveH]

Trouble is, we already pay high salaries, hence why it's difficult to get rid of players sometimes but we don't pay mega salaries as we can't afford it. It's quite a situation to be in and I suspect is a reason why we haven't signed some players.

Imagine what adebayor, Soldado and paulinho etc are being paid and us not being able to use that towards buying a really good player.

No one said it was easy......

 

[talkshowhost86]

But I don't think this is the answer either. Integrating a whole host of new players mid-season is disruptive and, since we're unlikely to pay the premium costs for PL players, is likely to involve players having to adjust to a new league. We've seen with even an experienced player like Fazio that this is a tricky process.

Whilst I wouldn't normally advocate buying in a load of new players, particularly having seen it not work last season, I just don't think many of our players suit the way Poch wants to play and I don't think any amount of coaching is going to help with that.

We need better passers of the ball, we need quicker players and we need a striker who isn't Soldado. I don't see how we deal with that without a change in personel.

 

[Strikeb4ck]

I saw a different team against Everton.

Unfortunately that was the only time all season which makes me believe it was just an anomaly.

 

[shelfboy68]

I hate saying this is the whole point - but this is the whole point. Pochettino isn't just taking over a young squad, at the start of its development (and NOT in the middle of it, though folk still insist on comparing it with Redknapp's finished article squad and not Redknapp's just inherited from Wandery Ramos Squad), he is also having to learn and learn quickly himself as his starting premise employed at Espanyol and Southampton is no longer valid. And what was that starting premise? It was that teams would come out and play against them. Teams would, pretty much, be prepared to attack them. Even relegation struggles would be ashamed, in front of their own fans, in particular, to sit deep, play for a draw and hope for one opportunity to hit them on the break and nick a goal.

Long since, under Mr Redknapp, the average EPL team realised that we could bluddy well play, and if they came out against us and left space behind we could exploit it. They started being wary. Mr Redknapp struggled to break these teams down - he bluddy well did, stop living with blinkers over your eyes and a few select highlights. AVB struggled to break these teams down. InterTim struggled to break down the basic modes of communication. Pochettino hasn't even had half a season. Jeeeeessssshhhhhh!



This is a total non sequitor. The first half does not in any way contradict the second - it merely serves as a didactic tool to prioritise your argument. The fact that everybody else sucks, as explained below by TM, is part of a proposition that things are being blown out of proportion. Other teams are struggling, therefore, firstly maybe we are encountering the same problems, maybe there are a lot of teams at present capable of exploiting better teams who are going through a period of transition and/or low on confidence. It is possible to make that argument and also have higher expectations for the team that what we are seeing ATM during that transitional period where, similar to several of the higher up clubs, inferior teams are exploiting our weaknesses. Secondly, we are not too far adrift and a sudden upturn in form, similar to Newcastle's, could see us catapult up to the top end of the league (and is no less possible, nor any more predictable than Newcastle's).



So, your argument is that we can't have turned a corner unless we are performing consistently. I disagree, I believe we can show signs of turning the corner while still not performing consistently. Indeed, I would say that playing consistently would be the end product whereas the corner turning would be part of the journey on the way to the end product.



That's not the argument he's making.



Pochettino is trying to do something fundamentally different to Sherwood (or Mr Redknapp, for that matter). The former is looking to implement change for long-term effect, the latter was looking to get back to basics for immediate results.



We are not miles from challenging for a CL place - we are a couple of points and an upturn in form no more improbable that Newcastle's and no less predictable.



The current business plan that has seen us punching above our weight?
It is simple, really: if you have one great player and a mediocre squad, how do you improve it if you can't/won't indulge in a massive net spend (that is still going to leave you way behind clubs who have far more money and resources than you)? Do you keep the one great player and 10 mediocre players? Or do you sell him - he is demanding to go anyway - or do you speculate and reinvest the money on 5 new players. Now, supposing you speculate: 2 of the players flop, 2 turn out to be good squad players and one turns out to be great. Now you have 1 great player, 2 good players and 8 mediocre players. But the great player starts agitating to leave. So you sell and speculate on 5 new players. Same again, 2 flop, 2 are good and 1 is great. Now you have 1 great player, 4 good players and 6 mediocre players. Same again, and now you have one great player, 6 good players and 4 mediocre players. You can see that the percentage of mediocre players is being reduced over time.

It is improvement, it isn't spend £300 million on World stars improvement, but it is improvement. And although you are going through a period of adjustment every time you sell your great player, you are not just going back and forth - every time the dust settles the squad is a bit better, the percentage of good players higher and the percentage of mediocre players is lower. It takes patience. IMHO, where we are NOW is where we were when Wandery Ramos was fired, only we have a better squad - this isn't being recognised because of the insistence on comparing the fully evolved Redknapp squad with the fresh as a baby's arse Pochettino squad. The two aren't comparable. If you want to compare the two, you either have to wait two years for this squad to develop and them compare it to Mr Redknapp's fully fledged squad, or compare this squad with the one that Mr Rekdnapp inherited from Wandery. Simple!



Arsenal have been steadily deteriorating - just ask their fans. They have broken their business model the last two summers by signing £40 million players. Who have they replaced where they have made far more from the replacements than they did for the original players sold? There plan is fundamentally flawed as Whinger's intransigent refusal to offer more than one season at a time to over-thirties players, or, indeed, to manage player's contracts with any alacrity has led directly to them losing a host of top talent for zero transfer fees. Not something that can be aimed at Mr Levy, who learned his lesson from Judas-Gate! Whinger keeps on strengthening and upgrading the strongest part of the team, the midfield, while failing to improve the defence significantly (if anything, it is weaker). They are barely better than us this season, and if they are at all it is principally due to one £40 million signing who contradicts the Whinger codex. The Goons business model application is so so much better than ours that we closed a once massive gap to them barely squeezing past us on the last day of the season - and then only due to decisions/player actions so dubious that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if money changed hands.

In fact, it is so much superior that their management of their significantly greater financial clout has seen them go from ridiculing us by belittling us by claiming we were nothing to them and United were their true rivals, to them reinventing the meaning of St Totteringham's Day to something completely different to what it originally was just so they could childishly continue celebrating it in order to hide their nerves as they know they are lucky to finish one place, one point or even goal-difference above us now. Folk see what they want to see, LoL.



The only players Whinger buys who fit into their system are central midfielders. Amazing we have closed the gap on them to nothing despite their significantly greater financial muscle given everything about our club is so crap, and in such turmoil. Why don't we just have a lawn-sale and be done with it?



Nope.



Why is this relevant? I would imagine Mr Levy would be my dinner guest from hell - he is almost exactly the opposite of me in every way. doesn't stop me believing he has done much better than he is given credit for and that a lot of the criticism he gets is hysterically over the top (to the point of being histrionic).

SP thats the longest post in the world

 

[talkshowhost86]

SP thats the longest post in the world

I'm prepared to bet it's not even his longest post today

 

[Shadydan]

Title is incorrect, replace turn with take.

 

[StartingPrice]

I'm prepared to bet it's not even his longest post today

And, in this instance, you would be wrong...and I would be prepared to fight my long post making addiction just to prove you wrong

 

[StartingPrice]

SP thats the longest post in the world

Not to worry...just take the consonants out, that'll shorten it some

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

My point is that everyone is slitting their wrists and there is no point. Just sit back and go with the flow. We are not fighting relegation.

Getting champions league a few season back has ruined the fans expectations.

Getting CL footie has ruined fans expectations?

No that's plain daft, losing at home to WBA, Stoke, Newcastle, and drawing a blank to Palace, Chelsea and some fucking team no one knows has ruined fans expectations.

The decline in Spurs since Redknapp was fired is there for all to see. We are indeed and deserve to be the laughing stock of the PL and rightly so. To say that we are only a few points below CL qualification just shows how much in denial of the facts some are on here. Arsenal may be having a shit season so far but i'd take their last eighteen seasons and one piss poor one right now to be quite honest with you.

As for us not fighting relegation, there is still enough time to have the excitement of a relegation battle at WHL. I have lived through one, where we were "too good to go down" and believe me i can remember that season well enough to see similarities between the two. Over dramatic i may well be but just who have we looked like dominating at home this season.

If our home form does not pick up we will be fighting to stay in mid table for sure, and that fact needs to sink in to a few fans on here.

 

[spurs mental]

Getting CL footie has ruined fans expectations?

No that's plain daft, losing at home to WBA, Stoke, Newcastle, and drawing a blank to Palace, Chelsea and some fucking team no one knows has ruined fans expectations.

The decline in Spurs since Redknapp was fired is there for all to see. We are indeed and deserve to be the laughing stock of the PL and rightly so. To say that we are only a few points below CL qualification just shows how much in denial of the facts some are on here. Arsenal may be having a shit season so far but i'd take their last eighteen seasons and one piss poor one right now to be quite honest with you.

As for us not fighting relegation, there is still enough time to have the excitement of a relegation battle at WHL. I have lived through one, where we were "too good to go down" and believe me i can remember that season well enough to see similarities between the two. Over dramatic i may well be but just who have we looked like dominating at home this season.

If our home form does not pick up we will be fighting to stay in mid table for sure, and that fact needs to sink in to a few fans on here.

You've missed the pint of Taoist's post. Getting CL ruined our expectations because we punched well above our weight when we qualified for the CL, and Liverpool had begun to suffer their downturn in fortunes by then. He wasn't saying that we were wrong to expect CL, but it's unreaslitic if you look at the state of play now.