Swiss Ramble Article on our finances

[jambreck]

Can I elect a champion to do it for me?

Lilbaz just PM'd me to say that he's up for it.

 

[Spurger King]

I dont see the new stadium taking us on but merely keeping us around where we are that which have to be good enough as the others are out of our reach.

This. The stadium isn't going to be some magical panacea that turns us into world beaters. At best it will keep us on the coattails of the bigger clubs, and stop us from potentially falling behind West Ham (although it seems highly unlikely that their attendance will increase enough).

I'm not even sure we'll fill the new stadium. The season ticket waiting list stats are skewered by being a part of Spurs membership. Plenty of people are technically on the waiting list, but are really just interested in getting priority for buying tickets to bigger games. I'll be very surprised if we average more than 45,000 in the new stadium - especially if we're still playing the dull dross of the last two seasons.

 

[Lilbaz]

Lilbaz just PM'd me to say that he's up for it.

As long as Houds not involved. Couldn't sit down for a week afterwards.

 

[Mullers]

Yep. He did. Not as much as it is now, of course. But proportionally, in terms of other club's TV revenues and in terms of the cost of buying and paying players, it was more or less the same.

Not to mention that, when he took over, there was no gaping financial chasm between Spurs and those other "Big Five" clubs of yore - Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal. It was during his time at the club that we fell off the map in that regard.

Nor did he have to compete with the oil doped clubs, of course.

But this isn't a thread about Sugar v Levy, so let's leave it there.

It was arguably more difficult in Sugar's era. There were less champions league places, Newcastle, Leeds, Blackburn had lots of money and while the gap financially was not as big as it now there was still a considerable gap. There was also Sheffield Wednesday and Villa who produced some good sides and the emergence of Chelsea to contend with as well.

 

[jambreck]

It was arguably more difficult in Sugar's era. There were less champions league places, Newcastle, Leeds, Blackburn had lots of money and while the gap financially was not as big as it now there was still a considerable gap. There was also Sheffield Wednesday and Villa who produced some good sides and the emergence of Chelsea to contend with as well.

There were more clubs in with a chance, granted. But the point remains that the top clubs were easily within reach when Sugar first took over at Spurs. It was during his time in charge that, as a consequence of mismanagement and missed opportunity, the financial gap between us and the top clubs grew to unbridgeable proportions.

Everything since has been firefighting / pissing in the wind.....call it what you will. Even with the new stadium, we aren't going to catch up unless we are bought by a super rich owner who lavishes his wealth upon us by way of FFP loopholes.

 

[Stoof]

This. The stadium isn't going to be some magical panacea that turns us into world beaters. At best it will keep us on the coattails of the bigger clubs, and stop us from potentially falling behind West Ham (although it seems highly unlikely that their attendance will increase enough).

I'm not even sure we'll fill the new stadium. The season ticket waiting list stats are skewered by being a part of Spurs membership. Plenty of people are technically on the waiting list, but are really just interested in getting priority for buying tickets to bigger games. I'll be very surprised if we average more than 45,000 in the new stadium - especially if we're still playing the dull dross of the last two seasons.

But I thought they were two separate memberships? A lilywhite membership gets you the same priority as a bronze one? The only difference is that a bronze one gives you the season ticket waiting list spot?

 

[Spurger King]

But I thought they were two separate memberships? A lilywhite membership gets you the same priority as a bronze one? The only difference is that a bronze one gives you the season ticket waiting list spot?

For some reason I thought bronze membership gave you a higher priority for category A games. If not, and they're identical other than the waiting list, that would certainly suggest that we'd get more than 45,000.

Even if that was the case and we sold out all of our home games, I suspect it would merely consolidate our position as a top 5/6 team, rather than making us regular CL contenders.

 

[jambreck]

But I thought they were two separate memberships? A lilywhite membership gets you the same priority as a bronze one? The only difference is that a bronze one gives you the season ticket waiting list spot?

Can't bronze members book tickets a day earlier than lilywhite members?

Re Spurger King's point, my impression is that a good 50% of those on the list would not take up the offer of a season ticket if one became available. But even if only 20,000 do, that'll be fine. It'll mean some 40-45K season ticket holders and still a further 50K members, countless non members, day trippers, football tourists, corporate types and away fans to fill the remaining seats. I believe that the club has also committed to enabling more locals to attend games too - which can only be a good thing.

I'd agree that we will struggle to fill a 60K stadium if form is poor - and especially for the less glamorous / midweek / cup games if they aren't generously priced. But I think we'll still average well above 50K. Especially for the first year or two.........when the if you build it, they will come phenomenon will be in effect.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

For some reason I thought bronze membership gave you a higher priority for category A games. If not, and they're identical other than the waiting list, that would certainly suggest that we'd get more than 45,000.

Even if that was the case and we sold out all of our home games, I suspect it would merely consolidate our position as a top 5/6 team, rather than making us regular CL contenders.

Surely we've already consolidated our position there? I think we'll be stuck there for a few years but gradually improving, and I hopefully the stadium could give us boost.

I'm not actually that bothered about where we finish. I just want exciting football on a regular basis- while watching a team develop.

 

[Lilbaz]

Can't bronze members book tickets a day earlier than lilywhite members?

Re Spurger King's point, my impression is that a good 50% of those on the list would not take up the offer of a season ticket if one became available. But even if only 20,000 do, that'll be fine. It'll mean some 40-45K season ticket holders and still a further 50K members, countless non members, day trippers, football tourists, corporate types and away fans to fill the remaining seats.

I'd agree that we will struggle to fill a 60K stadium if form is poor - and especially for the less glamorous / midweek / cup games if they aren't generously priced. But I think we'll still average well above 50K. Especially for the first year or two.........when the if you build it, they will come phenomenon will be in effect.

10k will be corporate tickets and 5k away fans. So we will have to sell 45k tickets to normal fans. 35k season tickets and 10k normal. Think we could probably fill it as long as we win more than we lose.

 

[Spurger King]

Surely we've already consolidated our position there? I think we'll be stuck there for a few years but gradually improving, and I hopefully the stadium could give us boost.

I'm not actually that bothered about where we finish. I just want exciting football on a regular basis- while watching a team develop.

Not so sure we have. There's a good chance that we'll finish 7th, which as the article in the OP points out, would make our last few seasons 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th. That suggests we're going in a particular direction, and it's not forwards.

There's the possibility (although unlikely) that West Ham will push on with extra revenue from the new stadium. Southampton are looking very good these days. There are several teams in the Prem (such as Everton, Newcastle, and Villa) that are well placed to compete for 5th/6th if they get new owners or further investment. Of course these are hypothetical situations, but ones that I think are at least plausible (for instance, Everton have a fan-base, stadium, and history that would make them far more attractive to potential investors than, say, Stoke).

I think the new stadium will help to keep us out of reach of all of those teams, but it won't help to compete with Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Oil Money, and United - at least not in any meaningful sense.

 

[jambreck]

10k will be corporate tickets and 5k away fans. So we will have to sell 45k tickets to normal fans. 35k season tickets and 10k normal. Think we could probably fill it as long as we win more than we lose.

I doubt we'll offer an away allocation of more than 3K other than for FA Cup or League Cup games (for which we will have to offer 9,000 - unless it's Arsenal, in which case we can give them as few as they've been giving us singing moving to the Emirates).

As to corporate seats, the KSS design originally allowed for 8.5K. The redesign to create the single tier end reduced that figure to 6.5K. So I'd expect Populous' new design to allow for something nearer the original figure.

 

[Lilbaz]

I doubt we'll offer an away allocation of more than 3K other than for FA Cup or League Cup games (for which we will have to offer 9,000 - unless it's Arsenal, in which case we can give them as few as they've been giving us singing moving to the Emirates).

As to corporate seats, the KSS design originally allowed for 8.5K. The redesign to create the single tier end reduced that figure to 6.5K. So I'd expect Populous' new design to allow for something nearer the original figure.

Sorry was just guessing based on the Emirates with 9k. Will have to wait and see what it is and indeed if our new capacity is 61k.

 

[Mullers]

There were more clubs in with a chance, granted. But the point remains that the top clubs were easily within reach when Sugar first took over at Spurs. It was during his time in charge that, as a consequence of mismanagement and missed opportunity, the financial gap between us and the top clubs grew to unbridgeable proportions.

Only Leeds and Blackburn were able to break the stranglehold of man u and Arsenal and win titles but they threw a bucket load of money around for the one title win. I agree there was mismanagement and missed opportunities and we should have done much better but I don't think top clubs were easily within reach. The top sides of that era were very good sides and we haven't won the title ourselves since the early 60's.

Everything since has been firefighting / pissing in the wind.....call it what you will. Even with the new stadium, we aren't going to catch up unless we are bought by a super rich owner who lavishes his wealth upon us by way of FFP loopholes.

The same applies now as it did in sugars era if you get the player recruitment right with scouting, a good academy and the right coach then you can achieve things without throwing lots of money around or a new stadium. We will lose players to richer clubs but if the right system is in place we will be able to overcome that difficulty.

 

[Lilbaz]

Only Leeds and Blackburn were able to break the stranglehold of man u and Arsenal and win titles but they threw a bucket load of money around for the one title win. I agree there was mismanagement and missed opportunities and we should have done much better but I don't think top clubs were easily within reach. The top sides of that era were very good sides and we haven't won the title ourselves since the early 60's.



The same applies now as it did in sugars era if you get the player recruitment right with scouting, a good academy and the right coach then you can achieve things without throwing lots of money around or a new stadium. We will lose players to richer clubs but if the right system is in place we will be able to overcome that difficulty.

I think we wasted an awful lot of money and had some bad managers. Think we spent more on players than Arsenal and Liverpool. It arguably would have been easier in the 90's to get into the CL. From there who knows?

 

[shelfboy68]

This. The stadium isn't going to be some magical panacea that turns us into world beaters. At best it will keep us on the coattails of the bigger clubs, and stop us from potentially falling behind West Ham (although it seems highly unlikely that their attendance will increase enough).

I'm not even sure we'll fill the new stadium. The season ticket waiting list stats are skewered by being a part of Spurs membership. Plenty of people are technically on the waiting list, but are really just interested in getting priority for buying tickets to bigger games. I'll be very surprised if we average more than 45,000 in the new stadium - especially if we're still playing the dull dross of the last two seasons.

Fair point to keep it filled we or any team with a large capacity need to be playing top end football and competing for the big prizes otherwise whats the point playing to half empty stadia.
And finally as a bronze member myself you get automatically put on the waiting list i believe.

 

[jambreck]

Only Leeds and Blackburn were able to break the stranglehold of man u and Arsenal and win titles but they threw a bucket load of money around for the one title win. I agree there was mismanagement and missed opportunities and we should have done much better but I don't think top clubs were easily within reach. The top sides of that era were very good sides and we haven't won the title ourselves since the early 60's.

The same applies now as it did in sugars era if you get the player recruitment right with scouting, a good academy and the right coach then you can achieve things without throwing lots of money around or a new stadium. We will lose players to richer clubs but if the right system is in place we will be able to overcome that difficulty.

We're talking about finances. At the beginning of Sugar's tenure, there was demonstrably no yawning financial chasm between Spurs and the likes of Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool. We were one of the "Big Five". Our income was pretty much on a par with all of theirs. Case in point: in the early 90's, Spurs made more from merchandising than any other English club - 50% more than Man Utd even. Unfortunately, Sugar pissed off Spurs' brilliant and visionary merchandising guru, Edward Freedman, and sent him into the thankful arms of the Old Trafford club. Doh!

So yes, the top clubs were indeed financially well within our reach when Sugar first took over Spurs. It was Sugar who oversaw us falling out of the race. There can be no argument about that.

 

[The Scarecrow]

did Sir Alan have the astronomical Sky money to play with?

Is Levy the only one who has Sky money to play with?

 

[tom4s]

anyone demanding that we qualify for CL every year should be forced to read Swiss Rambles article in full. The task is almost mathematically impossible.

 

[Lilbaz]

anyone demanding that we qualify for CL every year should be forced to read Swiss Rambles article in full. The task is almost mathematically impossible.

Thank god football isn't played on a calculator.