The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 14th July 2014

[spurs9]

Don't see much point in this statistical debate to be honest. I put much more stock in attacking statistics than I do defensive statistics. Goals, assists, key passes etc. are easily quantifiable and a decent measure of individual quality. Defensive stats IMO are more heavily determined by tactical considerations.

What you won't see on Opta is that for half the season Danny Rose was played behind Eriksen with no DM giving him cover and as a result his side was targeted by opposing managers, or that Davies played in a possession-oriented system and was probably called on to defend less than an average LB might be.

I'm not saying that stats should be disregarded entirely, just that IMO they are far less important when evaluating defenders than are physical, technical, and mental attributes. I'll readily admit to being underwhelmed by the prospect of Davies but if Poch has identified him as his top target who am I to really disagree.

I agree with all of this except the part of attacking stats. They are just as dependent on tactics etc as defensive stats. It is easier to create a chance (make a key pass) in a team playing open attacking football against teams that don't feel the need to "park the bus" than it is to do the same in AVB's rigid style (for example). Also, passing a ball 2 yards sideways to someone like Townsend who shoots and misses from 30 yards out would count as a chance created, just as dribbling past 5 players and playing a perfectly weighted pass giving someone an open net that they somehow miss would.

 

[Ossie85]

And you seriously think that there's a possibility of that happening?

No, because of his age and Levy.
But I can name you several young ones who are shit and could well happen. Signing Ben Davies to be our starting LB is like signing Dwight Gayle for 15m to be our top striker

 

[spurs9]

I think he's above average, I was just using the term he used.


But does it really matter? Most don't expect to get Top 4 for the next couple of seasons so by the time we are in strong contention, he could be one of the best LBs in the league.

I just don't see it at all. I actually think Fryers has just as much potential at LB and I think Fryers future lies at CB.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

No, that's why I don't want him. I don't see any potential in him. Shaw is not that much better nowadays, but you can clearly see he has potential to be great. I just don't see that in Davies. There are things you can't coach. If it were down to coaching and effort, Dawson would be the best CB in the world right now, but he isn't

Every youngster has potential to be a much better player. There's no way he's never going to improve in the next 10 years of his career...

 

[Ledleys Knee]

People are harsh on Davies just because he isn't explosive.

He's a bloody good defender. Intelligent, disciplined, great reader of the game, composed, uses the ball well. Only in England do we prize simple raw pace over the technical and mental qualities that make up genuinely good players.

 

[spurs9]

No, it doesn't. But are you saying now that Pochettino has got it wrong regarding Davies? (Assuming, of course, that there's anything in this story.)

If he wants Davies as 1st choice (and/or only LB signing), then yes, imo he has made the wrong choice of LB.

 

[Krafty]

Dont forget the home grown 25 man squad rules. With Daws on the verge of leaving, (is Siggy also considered home grown because of his time at Reading?) and one of the few home grown and trained players in Danny Rose being the subject of being replaced - and probably wanting to move as a result - we will have to buy 'Home Grown' at some point.

 

[spurs9]

People are harsh on Davies just because he isn't explosive.

He's a bloody good defender. Intelligent, disciplined, great reader of the game, composed, uses the ball well. Only in England do we prize simple raw pace over the technical and mental qualities that make up genuinely good players.

I don't agree with any of those things in bold. If I did, I would be happy we are trying to sign him. I value Intelligence over pace.

 

[JayB]

I agree with all of this except the part of attacking stats. They are just as dependent on tactics etc as defensive stats. It is easier to create a chance (make a key pass) in a team playing open attacking football against teams that don't feel the need to "park the bus" than it is to do the same in AVB's rigid style (for example). Also, passing a ball 2 yards sideways to someone like Townsend who shoots and misses from 30 yards out would count as a chance created, just as dribbling past 5 players and playing a perfectly weighted pass giving someone an open net that they somehow miss would.

I don't disagree at all that attacking stats are greatly affected by tactics, just that IMO the effect is relatively more pronounced on the defensive side of the game.

 

[SpurSince57]

Don't see much point in this statistical debate to be honest. I put much more stock in attacking statistics than I do defensive statistics. Goals, assists, key passes etc. are easily quantifiable and a decent measure of individual quality. Defensive stats IMO are more heavily determined by tactical considerations.

What you won't see on Opta is that for half the season Danny Rose was played behind Eriksen with no DM giving him cover and as a result his side was targeted by opposing managers, or that Davies played in a possession-oriented system and was probably called on to defend less than an average LB might be.

I'm not saying that stats should be disregarded entirely, just that IMO they are far less important when evaluating defenders than are physical, technical, and mental attributes. I'll readily admit to being underwhelmed by the prospect of Davies but if Poch has identified him as his top target who am I to really disagree.

For defenders?

No, you won't see that. But Benny and Lee both had to play behind nominal LMs in the shape of Modric and Steed and coped far better than Rose.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

So essentially we want ether Jay Rod or Remy for LWF, cant say i am particularly happy about that. I am hoping that it could be Kono but i just don't see it.

Was it JJ who mentioned Kono but said it's complicated? If not, it was another ITK.

 

[Ossie85]

People are harsh on Davies just because he isn't explosive.

He's a bloody good defender. Intelligent, disciplined, great reader of the game, composed, uses the ball well. Only in England do we prize simple raw pace over the technical and mental qualities that make up genuinely good players.

I don't think he's a good defender. He's decent. He's terrible attacking. Looks composed with the ball though, but can't take on a player. Not very athletic either.

This is getting really boring though. I hope we don't sign him, but if we end up with him, I hope I'm wrong and he's great.

 

[SpurSince57]

That's 11 goals + 5 assists to be fair to Bobby Soldier!

Six league goals, four of them from penalties.

 

[spurs9]

Dont forget the home grown 25 man squad rules. With Daws on the verge of leaving, (is Siggy also considered home grown because of his time at Reading?) and one of the few home grown and trained players in Danny Rose being the subject of being replaced - and probably wanting to move as a result - we will have to buy 'Home Grown' at some point.

Or promote from the youth team.

 

[spurs9]

Was it JJ who mentioned Kono but said it's complicated? If not, it was another ITK.

No, JJ said Kono is not even on our radar.

 

[Ledleys Knee]

So essentially we want ether Jay Rod or Remy for LWF, cant say i am particularly happy about that. I am hoping that it could be Kono but i just don't see it.

Remy predominantly plays RWF, where we already have 3 players (Lamela, Townsend and Lennon).

I would like us to go for Kono, but suspect we'll use Eriksen out left for the next 12 months and move for Rodriguez next summer if he recovers from his knee reconstruction.

 

[SpurSince57]

If he wants Davies as 1st choice (and/or only LB signing), then yes, imo he has made the wrong choice of LB.

Well, we might as well sack him now. Why waste time?

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Well, we might as well sack him now. Why waste time?

Knowing our fans, I'm surprised it took this long to be honest...

 

[KevinW]

I don't agree with any of those things in bold. If I did, I would be happy we are trying to sign him. I value Intelligence over pace.

Intelligence over pace for a FB !! - on that basis we would sign Stephen Hawking

 

[JayB]

For defenders?

No, you won't see that. But Benny and Lee both had to play behind nominal LMs in the shape of Modric and Steed and coped far better than Rose.

No, in general. I guess a better way to phrase what I'm trying to say is that I think attacking stats are more relevant to evaluating the quality of attacking players than defensive stats are to evaluating defenders, due to the relatively greater effect tactics have on defending (IMO).

As for your second point I'm not necessarily defending Rose (I think LB should be our top priority this window), but TBF he is more of a wing back by nature and was called on to provide all of our width on the left while playing behind f**king Chadli and Paulinho in CM. He really was hung out to dry by Tim, even if he's a bit shit to begin with.