You cannot use hearsay as factual basis,
Since when was SC a court of law?
You cannot use hearsay as factual basis,
Ok then I will go with the one I mentioned. Ramos may have been denied Diarra but he also was happy to see Keane go. There. (ignoring the chronological confusion on your part)
If these profiling reports are true does anyone know how they are put together in the first place? I would be interested to know how you can psychologically profile someone without their full co-operation as well as interview, referals and an in depth mental assessment. This isn't a serial killer we're talking about with speculative suggestons of motives and personality traits but a footballer with an apparent primadonna attitude.
That's hearsay too.
.
So, in that spirit, the ITK known as "Dan Ashcroft", claimed that Comolli's "psychological profiling" of Lassana Diarra suggested he had a suspect temperament and this is the reason we didn't sign him. The claim was that Diarra's agents offered him to us both when he went from chavski to the goons, and then again when he moved to Pompey.
Why didn't we sign Diarra? I would imagine that the alleged "psychological profile" - if it did indeed exist - was a crucial part of our decision-making process whilst Comolli was DoF: ie under both Jol & Ramos.
As I stated above, I think trying to get a sense of a player's temperament, before blowing millions in transfer fee and wages, is clearly a professional and correct thing for Tottenham Hotspur FC to do. However, currently, Diarra has shown no signs of "blowing up" psychologically, and whenever I saw him for Pompey, he was very committed. Of course, he may "blow up" in the future..
Prince Boateng, on the other hand, does seem to have pretty much "blown up" at Tottenham.
It's surely legitimate, if speculative, to ask whether this is for footballing or psychological reasons?
Our scouts (plus DoF Monchi at Sevilla and SC's very own Bill Oddie) clearly thought that Prince Boateng was a very talented central midfielder. We outbid other major European clubs to sign him. Having seen Boateng up close, our coaches reacted as follows:
i) Jol hardly played him;
ii) Ramos didn't give him a squad number;
iii) Redknapp loaned him to Germany with an agreed purchase price in the contract (suggesting he's not bothered about him coming back to Spurs).
Maybe Boateng is a talentless footballer. My best guess is that he is, in fact, a potentially good player who needs to start concentrating on his football. But if, as Dan Ashcroft claims, we have a methodical "psychological profiling" system before signing players, then I'm surprized Boateng got through it, and I'd rather we'd taken the chance on Diarra.
As for Ramos being happy to let Keane go, this is also hearsay but may contain some truth.
My best guess is that Juande knew Berba, our team's "brain", was going to leave, and he wanted a new "brain". The name of that "brain" was Andrei Arshavin.
In Ramos' proposed team for this season, Arshavin would have pulled the strings behind a strong, tall, striker (Pavlyuchenko as it turned out), with players like Luka Modric, Bentley, Lennon and Gio also in the attacking mix.
So, yes, Ramos was probably prepared to sell Keane to Liverpool at an inflated price. On the strict condition that we managed to spend the money on a player he considered better.
Zenit wanted an inflated price for Arshavin, but it still appears to have been less (or very similar) to the inflated price we got for Keane. For whatever reasons, we only did half the deal. We ended up selling Keane and Berbatov (and Defoe in the previous window) and only signing Pavlyuchenko.
Despite Darren Bent's goals in pre-season, Ramos didn't seem to have any confidence in him, so in selection terms he was left with one (knackered after the Euros) striker that he rated: Pavlyuchenko.
Ramos had been very clear that he wanted the squad sorted by the time of pre-season training in Spain. That was never going to happen. But he surely didn't expect to end up with just one striker that he rated come September 1st.
Keane and Pav are a more than decent partnership (as are Pav & Defoe), and my best guess is that if Ramos knew Arshavin was not going to join us, he would have objected very strongly to the sale of Keane to Liverpool.
So, yes, Ramos was coach during our truly abysmal start to the season. However, he behaved with a lot of dignity and has not complained about being left, on September 1st, with what he probably considered to be half a strikeforce.
He did behave with a lot of dignity but he made some terrible mistakes;
1. Selling Keane comewhatmay. He underestimated or was ignorant to the man's affect on the team and took on a wildly scientific approach that you can replace him with another player easily.
2. Selling Malbranque and Tainio- two players that were hard workers and very good players and were not replaced.
3. Arrogantly believing that even with a new strikeforce and other key additions, he could propel the team to the top heights of the league without keeping enough of the team that had won him a cup and been in the top five for the year previous.
4. Banishing good, professional or promising players to peripheral areas of the training ground and taking away their squad numbers. This just looks childish and simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
5. Keeping King for cup games only. Speaks for itself really.
There are a number of tactical and stylistic blunders he made as well but first and foremost there was the overly scientific and dogmatic approach he took which underscored a naievty and ignorance the chemistry of our squad and the tactical nuances of England.
good answer on the fact that he doesn't have a clue on english football....but saved us from relegation zone and won us a trophy.
Very impressive to cheer on of the buddies.
Carrick was far and away the most important player in that team. And the reason we had to completely rebuild our side. Somehow managing to finish 5th the next year (props to Mr. Jol for that; having the heart of his side viciously amputated).
Ok then I will go with the one I mentioned. Ramos may have been denied Diarra but he also was happy to see Keane go. There. (ignoring the chronological confusion on your part)
Yes he was but you could say that was just to put him back in the shop window, as he was out a year later or less. His words upon signing were hardly what you want from a new signing. Compare that with Palacios and I am glad we have the Honduran. I would not want us to sign someone that a) gets all hoity toity when left on the bench which should always be an option of any player or b) will leave when the next big club comes knocking. I would prefer longer term committment which is perhaps what Boateng offered with his potential. We don't know for sure which is worth saying to qualify any opinions to avoid coming off as more informed than others.
Perhaps the "psychological profiling" did not work with him, who knows? But I don't see that as necessary relevant to whether we should have signed Diarra or not. We don't even know we did and maybe there were other impediments such as wages or other facets to "psychological profiling" which were not what we wanted at Spurs. Maybe Wenger or Mourinho warned us off. The two are pretty independent. We signed Boateng, it hasn't worked out for who knows what reasons. We didn't sign Diarra but based on his brief stay at Pompey and poor proffesionalism at Chelsea and Arsenal, I think we have somewhat been vindicated.
He did behave with a lot of dignity but he made some terrible mistakes;
1. Selling Keane comewhatmay. He underestimated or was ignorant to the man's affect on the team and took on a wildly scientific approach that you can replace him with another player easily.
2. Selling Malbranque and Tainio- two players that were hard workers and very good players and were not replaced.
3. Arrogantly believing that even with a new strikeforce and other key additions, he could propel the team to the top heights of the league without keeping enough of the team that had won him a cup and been in the top five for the year previous.
4. Banishing good, professional or promising players to peripheral areas of the training ground and taking away their squad numbers. This just looks childish and simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
5. Keeping King for cup games only. Speaks for itself really.
There are a number of tactical and stylistic blunders he made as well but first and foremost there was the overly scientific and dogmatic approach he took which underscored a naievty and ignorance the chemistry of our squad and the tactical nuances of England. He may have been undone by the Arshavin affair but I cannot see the logic in the need to replace someone like Keane with a slightly similar but antithetically inexperienced (in this country) player.
I wish we had signed Arshavin, a terrific player, but if the rumours are true that Keane was happily sold that was a big mistake. We don't know, maybe Ramos was very reluctant and maybe Spurs never had the chance to sign Diarra when we got Boateng and maybe had we got the latter, he would not have worked as well as Harry's signing of Palacios has and will.
This decision gives weight to the theory, which I neither endorse or denounce, that Ramos was more interested in beefing up his CV with cup medals than achieving a sustainable and organially grown success in the league.
As for what I meant in the last part, without going into how badly we played under Ramos in most games this season what I was getting at is what Stoof and others have said; that Ramos thought he could implant his style and science from Spain and achieve success in a different footballing culture and environment, within which lies elements of arrogance and hubris. He chose to dismantle a lot of the squad and suffered the consequences. He came to Spurs off the back of a man sacked supposedly for a poor start to a league season so should have done whatever necessary to hit the ground running. We nose dived.
The best foreign managers have suceeded here by achieving a blend of their continental talents and experiences and melding them with English customs, styles and tactics. Ramos failed here.
This completely undermines your own argument. Carrick is an extremely good footballer, but played as a holding midfielder player, the way Jol played him, meant he was far more replaceable than if he'd been used correctly. Which we by and large did. Is Carrick better than Zokora ? yes. Is he a better holding midfielder ? barely.
I think there is far more evidence (ie Ramos signs Diarra for Real Madrid) that Ramos wanted Diarra than that Ramos happily waved goodbye to Keane without a replacement. We have had Comoli and Levy publicly stating that they regretted not bringing in another experienced striker in the Summer window. Wouldn't any manager be more likely to have said "I'd rather we replace Keane then allow him to go". The reality is Levy had a gun to his head (Keane wanted to go and Liverpool were offering stupid money) and convinced Ramos Arshavin ( or other) was on the way.
Hence the very public apology for the striker mess they left Ramos with.
I think Ramos possibly was prepared to let Keane go, as was Benitez. And I can understand why both would. He has merits but I think Ramos with Modric and Dos Santos intended to play a different way.
Some of this post I have addressed above. However, if you hinestly believe we didn't need to strengthen in all the areas Ramos did I am surprised. Defensively we were terrible. Key positions were fatally weak. Despite finishing fifth our defensive record was terrible. Robinson, Dawson, Chimbonda were all poor defensively.
We also lacked creativity and intelligence in midfield. The signing of Modric was the most important signing we have made for about 25 years. He is of a different class, world class. Intelligence and endeavour. Berbatov was intelligent but lacked endeavour (not as much as say Keane but he was nowhere near as industrious as Modric is relative to his position)
If you can't see the difference between Keane and Arshavin you are never going to appreciate some of the arguments for Ramos. Arshaving is, like Modric, the very top drawer. Keane is second drawer. With Keane's you can do well. With Arshavin's you do fucking well.
Thanks to Ramos we have IMO the second best goalie in the EPL. Top drawer. We have possible the srd/4th best CB pairing. Top drawer. We have possibly 3/4th best RB. Close to top drawer. Top Drawer midfield creative.
These were fantastic, vital building blocks. Imagine going into this season with the strike force depleated as it was (Berbatov and Keane were going regardless) but with Robinson in goal, Dawson at CB all season and Chimbonda at RB.
I have no problem with Tainio going, he was over rated, continually injured. We paid nothing and received a fee. Malbranque was a poor decision. Kaboul was treated poorly. No argument.
We will never see this issue the same it seems. I still believe that we are reaping much of what Ramos started to sow. The team has not just evolved but revolved. This isn't just hindsight on my part.
I was saying before the season started that adjustment was inevitable and maybe we need to write this season off as there were so many new faces and vital areas. IMO we were playing the type of football that was every bit as good as we now. And back then it was clear to some of us where the problems lie. New faces gelling and finding a ryhthm, piss poor striking options. You chose to believe where the blame for the strikers lay but I am certain the apologies from Comoli and Levy say it all.
If I was completely alone I may question my sanity, but a few others could see the positives I saw under Ramos, and the negatives under Jol too for that matter.
We will never know what would have happened but my belief was that we had improved most areas of our team significantly and would have bought strikers the next window. IMO we would have had a similar season to the one we had (give or take) but would have gone into the next season even stronger with a manager tactically/mentally of the top drawer as well.
I am reserving my opinion of Redknapp for when I revisit the "Harry Effect" thread later on.
Defensively we were terrible, but why? After all, for two seasons under Jol (and Hughton, and let's not forget to give Fruitini a little credit) we were about as tight at the back as Spurs have ever been. Then it all went tits-up. Did Jol suddenly forget how to organise a defence? No. After Ramos's arrival it was reported that he'd returned to the Gooner George training method of roping the back four together. That didn't work. We signed Woodgate and Hutton (Hutton's never convinced me) and there was a noticeable improvement. The only problem was that Ramos largely failed in getting us to walk and chew gum at the same time—something I expressed the hope that he'd be the first Spurs manager ever to do.
Thanks to Ramos we have acquired Woodgate, Gomes, Corluka and Modric. No-one in their right mind would dispute they are top, top, players. The jury's out on Pav. Yet clearly something went horribly wrong. We not only had a shocker of a start to this season, it continued from a pretty shite second half of last season. There is no way around this, unless you were brought up by Jesuits, and you'd be struggling then. The graph lishiyo posted shows what everyone should be aware of—we got to 11th by New Year, not least due to turkey-shoots against sides in freefall (Fulham, Wigan) and then proceeded to flatline for the remainder of the season.
Ramos' reputation rests solely on two successful seasons with Sevilla. They'd narrowly missed out on CL qualification the season before he took over, overhauled at the last gasp by Betis under Ramos' successor there (Ramos' achievement at Betis was, shall we say, decidedly ho-hum, as everywhere else). On this rather slender basis, he's branded as a 'world-class' manager by Dan Ashcroft and others. Are they having a laugh, or what?
Defensively we were terrible, but why? After all, for two seasons under Jol (and Hughton, and let's not forget to give Fruitini a little credit) we were about as tight at the back as Spurs have ever been. Then it all went tits-up. Did Jol suddenly forget how to organise a defence? No. After Ramos's arrival it was reported that he'd returned to the Gooner George training method of roping the back four together. That didn't work. We signed Woodgate and Hutton (Hutton's never convinced me) and there was a noticeable improvement. The only problem was that Ramos largely failed in getting us to walk and chew gum at the same time—something I expressed the hope that he'd be the first Spurs manager ever to do.
Thanks to Ramos we have acquired Woodgate, Gomes, Corluka and Modric. No-one in their right mind would dispute they are top, top, players. The jury's out on Pav. Yet clearly something went horribly wrong. We not only had a shocker of a start to this season, it continued from a pretty shite second half of last season. There is no way around this, unless you were brought up by Jesuits, and you'd be struggling then. The graph lishiyo posted shows what everyone should be aware of—we got to 11th by New Year, not least due to turkey-shoots against sides in freefall (Fulham, Wigan) and then proceeded to flatline for the remainder of the season.
Ramos' reputation rests solely on two successful seasons with Sevilla. They'd narrowly missed out on CL qualification the season before he took over, overhauled at the last gasp by Betis under Ramos' successor there (Ramos' achievement at Betis was, shall we say, decidedly ho-hum, as everywhere else). On this rather slender basis, he's branded as a 'world-class' manager by Dan Ashcroft and others. Are they having a laugh, or what?