2 Points From 8 Games / 39 Points from 24 Games

[yanno]

Ramos wanted to buy Diarra, a rumour actually proven by Ramos saying he likes the player and then buying him at Real. However he was denied (by either Comolli or Levy) on the basis of our having Zokora (who was okay at the time, but nothing special) whereas Redknapp was able to buy Palacios (at not such a dissimilar price). Yes it might have Levy who said no, but the whole point of having Comolli there was not to be a yes man but to be an adviser to Levy, so Comolli would have had a large say anyway and so in my eyes carries a large (but not all) portion of the guilt in Ramos' downfall.

However your blatant bias against 'Wendy Random' as you have so maturely called him in the past is evident so I don't think even a reasoned argument would make you think otherwise.

According to Dan Ashcroft, who had an excellent source at Spurs during Ramos' tenure, we had the chance to buy Diarra. However, Comolli was big on psychological profiles and decided Lassana was a big time charlie and too much of a risk.

I agree that it's important to know, in advance, as much as possible about the temperament of any players we're about to spend millions in transfer fees and wages on. However, under Comolli we bought Kevin-Prince Boateng - around the time we allegedly could have bought Diarra.

And Prince Boateng is surely a classic case of a player's attitude preventing him from fulfilling his football talent. Boateng missed pre-season training under Jol to get married and go on his honeymoon. Then, last season, his major achievement appears to be suffering facial injuries in a scrap with Spurs fans outside a nightclub.

'Arry appeared to offer him a way back, but presumably Boateng's attitude in training didn't justify a first team chance.

Signing Boateng instead of Diarra, because our psychological profiles suggested Diarra was flawed, was a truly nutty decision.

 

[spurs4europe]

Ramos had Modric, Lennon, JJ, Bent, Pavlyuchenko, Corluka, Woodgate, King, Assou-Ekotto, Zokora. He had Keane and Berbatov last year and still failed to get us in the top half.

Earlier this season was atrocious, new to the league or not. Good managers get the best out of players and adjust based on whos fit and who's not. Look at Moyes, he's been without strikers but Everton kept winning.

We never kept the ball better under Ramos at all, in fact we looked shakey and gittery under Ramos from start to finish. Ramos had a window of about 1 month where results were midly acceptable prior to the cup final, then we were a disgrace from February to October.

Its not great surprise that Comolli's signings are now flourishing under a manager who knows his way around this league. Pavlyuchenko, Modric, Assou-Ekotto, Corluka and Woodgate are all playing far far better now, I suppose Comolli gets no credit for brining those in? I just felt Ramos was incapable of coaching them and it shows.

Look I'm not here to dispute that things were bad under Ramos, I just said that had things turned out differently and on the basis that at times Ramos got the team to play some very good stuff, we might have done well.

But with regards to the above, I think it is safe to put the terrible league form last season down to a lack of motivation, whilst this season was for the large part due to the effects of constantly disrupting the squad. We lost Keane and Berba, who also refused to play for us, whilst we also brought in inadequate replacements and those who are quality players were unprepared for the rigours of the PL. That made keeping the ball harder while we were unable to retain due to our transfer team’s inability to sign a defensive midfielder during the summer. Dan Ashcroft made numerous claims that the management team wanted to sign a DM and quite frankly I believe him. Given Ramos’ publicly stated admiration for Diarra, I’m surprised we didn’t make more of an attempt for the player, and I can only put that down to the upper management team, of which Comolli was the main adviser, and its decision not to let Ramos pursue Diarra.

But as I said in my response to ’57, clearly Comolli does not carry all the blame. Yes he made some fantastic signings and many have come good but he has made some true shockers too. My other gripe with Comolli is that I don’t understand how he could have overseen such a large overhaul of players within his time, because how he expected that to provide continuity is beyond me.

Yes, good managers do get the best out of their players, but the club needs a good culture throughout to be able to implement that. Half team of Ramos' team were new and some barely spoke English, whilst the rest bar a couple didn't exactly show the winning mentality from the second half of the previous season, did they. Such cultures take time to develop - Moyes took a long time to get his team performing and now that he has that culture he wants he can slowly bring in new players who will quickly adapt to that culture. Too many at once and you can disrupt it.

On another note, I think it’s an insult to Ramos, a man who has won 2 UEFA cups and brought a decent team into the Champions League not to mention many other acclaims, to say that he couldn’t coach our players. Actually it’s plain idiotic.

Of course he could, but being provided with many foreign players, many of who spoke almost no English and had no PL experience, would not have made his job easier. To say that Redknapp did not have it easier given that after 8 games the players would have spoken better English and more importantly would have had a better idea of what competing in the PL was like would have helped Redknapp no end. I think we just needed a kick-start and Redkapp’s introduction and knowledge of the PL provided that.

 

[Stoof]

No, it isn't that simple and i guess you know that so why you're posting stuff like that beats me.

- His first 20 games with Spurs had better results than our current manager. Yes it's true even though Redknapps stats are better now since we lost momentum last year having secured Premiership status and a place in Europe very early. Not bad from someone that "is not good in England. Proven. Shown"

- He made us look fuckin good beating Arsenal and Chelsea. But since you obviously doesn't agree i can inform you that...you missed something. Great games....

We're doing ok now and i'm happy to see Spurs gettin points and rise in the league. Not too much to discuss lately, apart from what happened at Blackburn. But to post dumb stuff like that is just childish since shit like that could happen to anyone when having their best players sold. You know what? I guess it even could happen to Redknapp, Wenger, Mourinho, Ferguson, etc and again...i guess you're aware of this. I mean you always talk of how many games you watch live etc. Perhaps a few games infront of a TV would make you see the bigger picture.

Ramos slowly dismantled our team, confused them and upset them - almost to the point of Premier League oblivion. I watched that in front of my very eyes and on the television. I rate Ramos as a manager. In Spain, speaking in his language, playing in a 'Spanish' style. I'm sorry, he simply didn't cut the mustard here - he wasn't right for us, mainly because he couldn't cope with the League's style.

I don't know what stats you're using - I'm looking at The League:

3 Sat Away Middlesbrough Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw
Sun Home Wigan Athletic Barclays Premier League 4 0 Won 35504
25 Sun Away West Ham Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 34966
02 Sun Home Birmingham City Barclays Premier League 2 3 Lost 35635
09 Sun Home Man City Barclays Premier League 2 1 Won 35646
15 Sat Away Portsmouth Barclays Premier League 0 1 Won 20520
22 Sat Away Arsenal Barclays Premier League 2 1 Lost 60087
26 Wed Home Fulham Barclays Premier League 5 1 Won 36077
29 Sat Home Reading Barclays Premier League 6 4 Won 36178
01 Tue Away Aston Villa Barclays Premier League 2 1 Lost
12 Sat Away Chelsea Barclays Premier League 2 0 Lost 41777
19 Sat Home Sunderland Barclays Premier League 2 0 Won 36070
30 Wed Away Everton Barclays Premier League 0 0 Draw 35840
02 Sat Home Man Utd Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 36075
09 Sat Away Derby County Barclays Premier League 0 3 Won 33058
01 Sat Away Birmingham City Barclays Premier League 4 1 Lost 26055
09 Sun Home West Ham Barclays Premier League 4 0 Won 36062
16 Sun Away Man City Barclays Premier League 2 1 Lost 40188
19 Wed Home Chelsea Barclays Premier League 4 4 Draw 36178
22 Sat Home Portsmouth Barclays Premier League 2 0 Won 35998
30 Sun Home Newcastle Utd Barclays Premier League 1 4 Lost 36067
05 Sat Away Blackburn Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 24592
12 Sat Home Middlesbrough Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 36092
19 Sat Away Wigan Athletic Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 18673
26 Sat Home Bolton Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 36176
03 Sat Away Reading Barclays Premier League 0 1 Won 24125
11 Sun Home Liverpool Barclays Premier League 0 2 Lost 36063

Won 10, Drawn 9, Lost 7 (note the calibre of the teams beaten)

Plus 2 points from 8 games this year.

So out of 34 games in the League, Ramos got 41 points.

Out of Harry Redknapp's 24 games he's got 39 points. And we're unbeaten against the Top 4. Albeit thanks to Ramos's 1-1 draw with Chelsea.

Hmmm. I'm not sure using any form of statistics helps you mate.

Any team on their day can win 3 ties (City, Arsenal and Chelsea) for a Cup. And fair credit to him - he made the team rise to the occasion for those ties. But for someone with the reputation for tough love (subbing the player off and not replacing him etc.) he watched the team melt in front of him. And so did I - abject performance after another. Playing nothing like the football we are now. And no, I'm not sure Redknapp would have let that happen.

 

[SpurSince57]

YUK '57 , what a horrible outpouring of inappropriate malice . Lets get this right the current manager of the biggest club in the world ( and doing well) winner of many European titles with a small club is a ' Journeyman '

Presumably you are going to tell us from your exhalted position in the clouds that ' Arry is nothing like a journey man ? and we should look at his results ...with Southampton perhaps ?

The biggest idiot is me as it goes... I used to think you were a good poster 57 . Your lousy post has me looking for the ignore button .

By all means carry on looking. I wouldn't presume to tell you otherwise.

And, likewise, ignore Ramos' record pre-Sevilla. Many do, so you won't be alone.

'The biggest club in the world'? Financially, they might be. However, most of their European triumphs were won when I was still in short trousers, so don't try and pull that fawning bullshit on me. Ramos does well with that squad? Well, strike me pink! He'd have to be completely fucking useless to do anything else. wouldn't he?

Perhaps if he'd taken over Valladolid or Gijon in January and propelled them towards the heights I might sit up and take notice.

 

[SpurSince57]

What, the guy who has brought Real to second in La Liga following an awful start? The guy who won 2 UEFA cups and took Sevilla to the Champions League? The guy who won a Carling Cup in his first season in a new league?

No, no, what am i thinking? Of course you are right 57, this guy is simply a fraud, of course. So why don't you do me a favour and actually think before you press the post button instead of being so bloody impulsive and shooting from the hip. But it's easy to do so why not, huh?

Of course Ramos is not completely inculpable. But to say that Comolli did not play a very large part in our downfall is just plain stupid.

Comolli bought some good players, especially young ones for the academy, which is proving to now be one of the best in Europe and gives us hope for a good future. But he also severly unbalanced the team through some dodgy first team transfers.

1) He failed to adequately replace outgoing players such as Carrick, Malbranque and Berbatov.
2) He made some unnecessary transfers by bringing in Bent and Bentley to name but two. Neither of these two are typical of the type of player valued by Jol (who likes technical footballers who can play technical football not dissimilar from Dutch teams - not Bent or Zokora) and Ramos (who likes fast tricky wingers - so not Bentley) respectively, so I think it is safe to assume Comolli was the chief instigator of these transfers.
3) When he did bring in quality players, he often bought foreign ones. I don't have a problem with this and actually believe that many foreign footballers are better educated in footballing terms and have better footballing brains. But typical of the Tottenham sydrome, he oversaw an unbelievably high player turnover and brought many foreign players all at once as opposed to slowly introducing them into an already settled team (I think Ramos is also culpable here, but as head of transfers with more experience in the PL than Ramos, Comolli should have known better). Moreover, he brought in players who took a long time to adapt to the League, such as Zokora, who is now a very good player for us but has taken 2 full years to fill the void that Carrick left (and now we buy Palacios). Other players like Modric, Gomes, Pavluychenko needed half a season to come to terms with the League.
4) He also failed to address certain deficiencies such as bringing in a left midfielder and a defensive midfielder during his tenure. And those he did address he often did badly: Zokora who needed 2 full years to adapt.

I would like to note that I am not blaming Comolli exclusively for all of the above, but he played a very large role in all of them and was the main constant factor in the failures of both Jol and Ramos, who have proved in the past to be and are now both extremely successful managers.

Ultimately though, you have zeroed in on a lesser point of my argument. My actual argument dealt much more with the issue that we played some good football under Ramos, who I belive would have been a success had he had a bit more luck, a bit more time to allow his top foreigners to adapt and had he been allowed to buy some players who he was clearly denied, as Redknapp was not.

Ramos wanted to buy Diarra, a rumour actually proven by Ramos saying he likes the player and then buying him at Real. However he was denied (by either Comolli or Levy) on the basis of our having Zokora (who was okay at the time, but nothing special) whereas Redknapp was able to buy Palacios (at not such a dissimilar price). Yes it might have Levy who said no, but the whole point of having Comolli there was not to be a yes man but to be an adviser to Levy, so Comolli would have had a large say anyway and so in my eyes carries a large (but not all) portion of the guilt in Ramos' downfall.

However your blatant bias against 'Wendy Random' as you have so maturely called him in the past is evident so I don't think even a reasoned argument would make you think otherwise.

No, the guy who put the 'mal' into Malaga, who was fired after five games at Espanyol, was mediocre at Betis and utter crap with Barca B, whose biggest success prior to Sevilla (who are doing just fine without him, despite losing numerous key players, hadn't you noticed?) was getting Rayo into the top flight. You know, the guy who was only saved from being the worst league manager in Spurs history by being sacked.

The Carling Cup run last season was great—but obscured the fact that with one or two exceptions our league form was shit, occasionally rising to mediocre. What 'good football' you watched I have no idea. The 4-1 thrashing at home to the Barcodes, perhaps? 1.17 PPG overall—less than a point a game from January to October. Absolute magic.

Do you seriously think last summer's massive player turnover was instigated by Comolli? I mean, seriously? Evil Damo foisted all those changes on poor innocent Wendy? Do me a favour. I certainly wouldn't absolve Comolli from blame, but wasn't the popular bleat last summer 'when Juande gets his own squad together'? Well, he did. And he didn't know what to do with it.

And, frankly, I couldn't give a flying fuck as to how well he's doing with Franco's Faves.

 

[rich75]

Ramos in England = shit
Ramos in Spain = Good

Redknapp in England = Good

Simple really

as an edit :

Martin Jol in England = Good
Martin Jol in Germany = Good

 

[Destroyer]

Do you seriously think last summer's massive player turnover was instigated by Comolli? I mean, seriously? Evil Damo foisted all those changes on poor innocent Wendy? Do me a favour.

How comes Levy never gets a mention ??

 

[Michey]

Ramos slowly dismantled our team, confused them and upset them - almost to the point of Premier League oblivion. I watched that in front of my very eyes and on the television. I rate Ramos as a manager. In Spain, speaking in his language, playing in a 'Spanish' style. I'm sorry, he simply didn't cut the mustard here - he wasn't right for us, mainly because he couldn't cope with the League's style.

I don't know what stats you're using - I'm looking at The League:

3 Sat Away Middlesbrough Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw
Sun Home Wigan Athletic Barclays Premier League 4 0 Won 35504
25 Sun Away West Ham Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 34966
02 Sun Home Birmingham City Barclays Premier League 2 3 Lost 35635
09 Sun Home Man City Barclays Premier League 2 1 Won 35646
15 Sat Away Portsmouth Barclays Premier League 0 1 Won 20520
22 Sat Away Arsenal Barclays Premier League 2 1 Lost 60087
26 Wed Home Fulham Barclays Premier League 5 1 Won 36077
29 Sat Home Reading Barclays Premier League 6 4 Won 36178
01 Tue Away Aston Villa Barclays Premier League 2 1 Lost
12 Sat Away Chelsea Barclays Premier League 2 0 Lost 41777
19 Sat Home Sunderland Barclays Premier League 2 0 Won 36070
30 Wed Away Everton Barclays Premier League 0 0 Draw 35840
02 Sat Home Man Utd Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 36075
09 Sat Away Derby County Barclays Premier League 0 3 Won 33058
01 Sat Away Birmingham City Barclays Premier League 4 1 Lost 26055
09 Sun Home West Ham Barclays Premier League 4 0 Won 36062
16 Sun Away Man City Barclays Premier League 2 1 Lost 40188
19 Wed Home Chelsea Barclays Premier League 4 4 Draw 36178
22 Sat Home Portsmouth Barclays Premier League 2 0 Won 35998
30 Sun Home Newcastle Utd Barclays Premier League 1 4 Lost 36067
05 Sat Away Blackburn Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 24592
12 Sat Home Middlesbrough Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 36092
19 Sat Away Wigan Athletic Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 18673
26 Sat Home Bolton Barclays Premier League 1 1 Draw 36176
03 Sat Away Reading Barclays Premier League 0 1 Won 24125
11 Sun Home Liverpool Barclays Premier League 0 2 Lost 36063

Won 10, Drawn 9, Lost 7 (note the calibre of the teams beaten)

Plus 2 points from 8 games this year.

So out of 34 games in the League, Ramos got 41 points.

Out of Harry Redknapp's 24 games he's got 39 points. And we're unbeaten against the Top 4. Albeit thanks to Ramos's 1-1 draw with Chelsea.

Hmmm. I'm not sure using any form of statistics helps you mate.

Any team on their day can win 3 ties (City, Arsenal and Chelsea) for a Cup. And fair credit to him - he made the team rise to the occasion for those ties. But for someone with the reputation for tough love (subbing the player off and not replacing him etc.) he watched the team melt in front of him. And so did I - abject performance after another. Playing nothing like the football we are now. And no, I'm not sure Redknapp would have let that happen.

The stats i'm using is their premiership games when coming in and taking over. We can't start to compare this years results for Ramos until Redknapp has begun a season on his own. Hopefully for him and us the guys upstairs won't sell his two best players shortly before the season starts. For some reason you don't see the part with the best players sold as remotely interesting when it comes to winning games and be succesful.

And again, last season Ramos did exactly what Redknapp has done this year. Took us out of relegation zone and quickly secured Premiership status. How on earth could that mean that "he couldn't cope with the League's style."
Suddenly, i think i haven't seen this before when Spurs has won some silverware......but when Ramos produced the silverware it sounds like; "Any team on their day can win 3 ties (City, Arsenal and Chelsea) for a Cup."


Well, well....all this is dead and buried but i think cheap shots like that wasn't called for.


Forget it, bring on Newcastle so we hopefully can add another nail in their coffin....PLEASE!!!

 

[danielneeds]

The stats i'm using is their premiership games when coming in and taking over. We can't start to compare this years results for Ramos until Redknapp has begun a season on his own. Hopefully for him and us the guys upstairs won't sell his two best players shortly before the season starts. For some reason you don't see the part with the best players sold as remotely interesting when it comes to winning games and be succesful.

And again, last season Ramos did exactly what Redknapp has done this year. Took us out of relegation zone and quickly secured Premiership status. How on earth could that mean that "he couldn't cope with the League's style."
Suddenly, i think i haven't seen this before when Spurs has won some silverware......but when Ramos produced the silverware it sounds like; "Any team on their day can win 3 ties (City, Arsenal and Chelsea) for a Cup."


Well, well....all this is dead and buried but i think cheap shots like that wasn't called for.


Forget it, bring on Newcastle so we hopefully can add another nail in their coffin....PLEASE!!!

Jol had his best player sold (Carrick) and still managed to get us 5th and QF of Uefa. Everyone and their dog knew Berba was leaving, Ramos' job was to prepare the team for life without him. The rumours were that he wasn't against Keane being sold either.

So, yes everyone must take blame for the shambles that was the start of the season, Ramos and Comolli paid with their jobs, and Levy paid with his wallet.

 

[Michey]

Jol had his best player sold (Carrick) and still managed to get us 5th and QF of Uefa. Everyone and their dog knew Berba was leaving, Ramos' job was to prepare the team for life without him. The rumours were that he wasn't against Keane being sold either.

So, yes everyone must take blame for the shambles that was the start of the season, Ramos and Comolli paid with their jobs, and Levy paid with his wallet.

Carrick was far from the most important player that could have been sold.

Yup, everyone knew that Berbatov was going to leave, what we didn't know was that it would happen in the last minuter with Frazier Campbell coming in for him.

 

[Kendall]

The stats i'm using is their premiership games when coming in and taking over. We can't start to compare this years results for Ramos until Redknapp has begun a season on his own. Hopefully for him and us the guys upstairs won't sell his two best players shortly before the season starts. For some reason you don't see the part with the best players sold as remotely interesting when it comes to winning games and be succesful.

And again, last season Ramos did exactly what Redknapp has done this year. Took us out of relegation zone and quickly secured Premiership status. How on earth could that mean that "he couldn't cope with the League's style."
Suddenly, i think i haven't seen this before when Spurs has won some silverware......but when Ramos produced the silverware it sounds like; "Any team on their day can win 3 ties (City, Arsenal and Chelsea) for a Cup."


Well, well....all this is dead and buried but i think cheap shots like that wasn't called for.


Forget it, bring on Newcastle so we hopefully can add another nail in their coffin....PLEASE!!!

Maybe not. But we can compare Ramos' failure to get us into the top half from taking over a team that had 7 points from 10 games with Redknapp's (was it dinosaur you called him?) performance getting us in the top half, with 6 games left after us having 2 points from 8 games.

 

[Stoof]

Maybe not. But we can compare Ramos' failure to get us into the top half from taking over a team that had 7 points from 10 games with Redknapp's (was it dinosaur you called him?) performance getting us in the top half, with 6 games left after us having 2 points from 8 games.

Exactly!!

 

[Coyboy]

According to Dan Ashcroft, who had an excellent source at Spurs during Ramos' tenure, we had the chance to buy Diarra. However, Comolli was big on psychological profiles and decided Lassana was a big time charlie and too much of a risk.

I agree that it's important to know, in advance, as much as possible about the temperament of any players we're about to spend millions in transfer fees and wages on. However, under Comolli we bought Kevin-Prince Boateng - around the time we allegedly could have bought Diarra.

And Prince Boateng is surely a classic case of a player's attitude preventing him from fulfilling his football talent. Boateng missed pre-season training under Jol to get married and go on his honeymoon. Then, last season, his major achievement appears to be suffering facial injuries in a scrap with Spurs fans outside a nightclub.

'Arry appeared to offer him a way back, but presumably Boateng's attitude in training didn't justify a first team chance.

Signing Boateng instead of Diarra, because our psychological profiles suggested Diarra was flawed, was a truly nutty decision.

Ok, let's put aside for a moment the fact that you are using hearsay to make an argument. I agree Dan had a good source and defended him a lot here and am not for one moment saying he was feeding us false informationm, not intentionally or knowingly anyway. But it is ITK which requires a pinch of salt. Besides, Dan constantly said we were not interested in Diarra and may have even included Ramos in that collective pronoun.

That aside, Dan had a contact during Ramos tenure yes? Ok, so how do you figure that even if we were, according to Dan, interested in Diarra we could have signed him when we signed Boateng? That was a year previous under Jol. Besides, I think the 'alleged' psychological assessment is not far off and had we signed him, I think there is a good chance his supposed 'big time charlie' persona would have remained and we would have been another stepping stone for him. He is now at Real Madrid, you cannot get bigger than that and so I am not surprised his whining has subsided, unless Madrid fall further behind Barca when you may see him doing a reverse Luis Figo.

Now compare Diarra's attitude with the humble Palacios whom we never looked at last summer despite already impressing at Wigan and having Wenger's praise. I am not criticising anyone for not signing him then, just saying we are now blessed with as good a player as Diarra minus the big time charlie attitude.

And if we are going to use rumours to back up arguments, how about the laissez-faire attitude Ramos took towards Keane leaving. It's all hearsay and can't be disguised as anythig more.

 

[Tickers]

Carrick was far from the most important player that could have been sold.

Sorry, what? Seriously? That's just mental.

 

[donny1013]

Sorry, what? Seriously? That's just mental.

Only gone on to be a key part of a team that has won the EPL twice, Champions League and Club World Cup. A player that we have never replaced.

 

[yanno]

It's all hearsay and can't be disguised as anythig more.

Do you have a point? Eek

 

[Stoof]

Carrick was far from the most important player that could have been sold.

Carrick was far and away the most important player in that team. And the reason we had to completely rebuild our side. Somehow managing to finish 5th the next year (props to Mr. Jol for that; having the heart of his side viciously amputated).

 

[Kendall]

Are we singing '2 points, 8 games' to the tune of 'shit ground, no fans' yet?

 

[Coyboy]

Do you have a point? Eek

Erm yea, it was pretty clear. You cannot use hearsay as factual basis, especially as you are getting confused with dates re Boateng and Diarra,

 

[Michey]

Exactly!!

good answer on the fact that he doesn't have a clue on english football....but saved us from relegation zone and won us a trophy.

Very impressive to cheer on of the buddies.