4-2-3-1 The "En Vogue" formation

THOWIG said:

what?

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I was being sarcastic because sowing four man midfield totally dominated germany with their five.

mil1lion said:

If we could keep the ball anything like as well as Spain then we might pull it off. Although the 2 wide players in the 4-3-3 work hard and track back, so it really becomes 5 in midfield. It just so happens they're mostly in possession anyway, so the wide players don't need to track back so much.

The key for Spain however is that they do have 3 central midfielders. Alonso and Busquets can protect, and Xavi pulls the strings. So if you can get enough of the ball, then you can expose them down the wings.

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I'd far prefer to aspire to that level of ball retention and have two striker to aim for when opportunity arises than just copy the rest. And yes, I know in theory barca, by far the best footballing side going, play that system but when you have players who score that level from the wings you get away with it. We have nobody who can score from the wings like messi and pedro do, and we don't have a lone striker, so unless you think that we should sign three new top class attackers now, and decent reserves for each, sacrificing pretty much all our current attackers barring maybe kranjcar and Pav, I don't see this formation suiting us any time soon.

We should just stick to whats been successfull for us over the last season. Thats been a 4-4-2 with keane/crouch and JD up front and a midfield with bite and creativity. Any mix from Lennon, Hudd, Modric, Kranjcar, Bale, Palacios seems to have worked over the season...thats what squad depth is all about.

Whilst 4-5-1 seems to be working for holland and germany to some extent.. I dont think its the right formation for spurs. Harry said its the way forward in europe..but id rther stick to 4-4-2 tbh.

Rackybear said:

We should just stick to whats been successfull for us over the last season. Thats been a 4-4-2 with keane/crouch and JD up front and a midfield with bite and creativity. Any mix from Lennon, Hudd, Modric, Kranjcar, Bale, Palacios seems to have worked over the season...thats what squad depth is all about.

Whilst 4-5-1 seems to be working for holland and germany to some extent.. I dont think its the right formation for spurs. Harry said its the way forward in europe..but id rther stick to 4-4-2 tbh.

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But what Harry is saying is that he will stick with two upfront in league matches, but in the Champions League, especially away from the lane, we are going to have to become more compact and keep the ball better if we don' want to get dumped out early.

I would imagine when the players get used to playing another way it will also be rolled out when we go to places like Stamford Bridge and Old Trafford. Defoe hardly ever touches the ball at those grounds, so we won't really notice the loss of a striker, but the extra man in midfield could help us keep the games tighter.

I don't think we'll change to this exclusively, just that Harry is smart enough to realise it is essential to be able to use a 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 in modern football, especially against european teams. We need the players in our locker to be able to do it, as otherwise we will remain limited in our options. We may still play 442 at home and when we are chasing a game, but packing the midfield could make the difference in other games, so it makes sense to go and get players that allow us to do that.

Huddlestone, Krancjar and Modric will be sensational in a 451. I actually think it might suit Crouch really well too as it forces the team to play on the ground more which is when we see the best of him.

BringBack_leGin said:

Playing with this formation really stopped Germany being overrun in midfield last night didn't it? How many midfielders did Spain play... 5? Nope, 4, hence why Spain saw none of the ball.

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http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tou.../27/01/79/62_0707_ger-esp_actualformation.pdf

arguably seven.

I think the fact that this World cup has been shyte except for 4-5 games speaks volumes about what an anti Spurs formation that is.

2 up front please. never less.

Maske2g said:

I think the fact that this World cup has been shyte except for 4-5 games speaks volumes about what an anti Spurs formation that is.

2 up front please. never less.

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Agreed! We have done very well against 4 or 5 in midfield, so lets keep that shi* going

I like the idea. If we got the right striker, I think it would suit us:

4-5-1 can work for spurs...


Allen

Waddle Allen Ardiles Hoddle Hodge

Hughton Gough Mabbut Thomas

Clemence

I loved that team! :bow:

Annabel said:

4-5-1 can work for spurs...


Allen

Waddle Allen Ardiles Hoddle Hodge

Hughton Gough Mabbut Thomas

Clemence

I loved that team! :bow:

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But it had goals from midfield...our present team needs to score way more before a 4-5-1 can work.

StartingPrice said:

But it had goals from midfield...our present team needs to score way more before a 4-5-1 can work.

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Isn't it possible that our current midfield would score more in that system though?

Raxscallion said:

Isn't it possible that our current midfield would score more in that system though?

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Yeah, and I am hoping, new formation or not, they will all chip in with more this season...just a little concerned that folk are advocating dropping a striker while this is still the case, is all.

StartingPrice said:

Yeah, and I am hoping, new formation or not, they will all chip in with more this season...just a little concerned that folk are advocating dropping a striker while this is still the case, is all.

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I know what you mean. But I'd rather Niko scoring than Defoe getting offside, iykwim.

Raxscallion said:

I know what you mean. But I'd rather Niko scoring than Defoe getting offside, iykwim.

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:hump:

StartingPrice said:

But it had goals from midfield...our present team needs to score way more before a 4-5-1 can work.

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Throughout the last campaign we only had one striker in form scoring with the other striker chipping in, for example crouch played 38 league games and only got 8 goals yet apparently we need a 15 goal midfielder

beats1 said:

Throughout the last campaign we only had one striker in form scoring with the other striker chipping in, for example crouch played 38 league games and only got 8 goals yet apparently we a 15 goal midfielder

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I'm sorry (and I'm really not taking the piss) but I think you will need to reconstruct that sentence 'cos it really doesn't make much sense.
Do you mean we need a 15 goal midfielder? If yes, well that's kinda what I'm saying.
You can't mean we have a 15 goal midfielder, 'cos we don't.
And the debate is about changing to a 4-5-1...for which most agree we would need a new striker. What I am saying is if we switch to a 4-5-1 we will need more goals from midfield. Are you agreeing with that or disagreeing, I really can't tell.

StartingPrice said:

I'm sorry (and I'm really not taking the piss) but I think you will need to reconstruct that sentence 'cos it really doesn't make much sense.
Do you mean we need a 15 goal midfielder? If yes, well that's kinda what I'm saying.
You can't mean we have a 15 goal midfielder, 'cos we don't.
And the debate is about changing to a 4-5-1...for which most agree we would need a new striker. What I am saying is if we switch to a 4-5-1 we will need more goals from midfield. Are you agreeing with that or disagreeing, I really can't tell.

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I corrected it now, thats what i get for multitasking, but i was saying we didn't have two goal scoring strikers last year because two never were scoring at same time whereas if we had one goalscoring striker this season it wouldn't make that much difference and wouldn't need that 15 goal midfielder

And also we are playing a static 4-4-2 at the moment whereas if playing a 4-5-1 with a holding midfielder the other four midfielders would have more freedom to go out of position which would lead to more chances for our midfielders than they get now

beats1 said:

I corrected it now, thats what i get for multitasking, but i was saying we didn't have two goal scoring strikers last year because two never were scoring at same time whereas if we had one goalscoring striker this season it wouldn't make that much difference and wouldn't need that 15 goal midfielder

And also we are playing a static 4-4-2 at the moment whereas if playing a 4-5-1 with a holding midfielder the other four midfielders would have more freedom to go out of position which would lead to more chances for our midfielders than they get now

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I'm not sure, last season, for spurs, our 'other strikers' scored as follows (according to Topspurs, apart from Crouch, who according to both BBC and Topspurs played an astonishing 47 times for us, and for whom I've used wiki stats instead):

Keane 9 goals in 25 appearences = 36% strike rate
Crouch 13 goals in 42 appearences = 31% strike rate
Pav 8 goals in 22 appearences = 36% strike rate

However, our prospective attacking midfielders, competing for spots in the '3' of our 4231, scored as follows:

Modric 3 goals in 32 apps = 9% Strike Rate
Cole 2 goals in 38 apps = 5% strike rate
Lennon 3 goals in 24 apps = 12.5% strike rate
Kranker 8 goals in 32 apps = 25% strike rate
Gio (Spurs and Gala) 0 goals in 18 apps = 0% strike rate


(Those stats aren't too unrepresentative. Joe Cole's strike rate since the 2000/01 season for wham, when I reckon he became a 'regular' is 12%. Lennon has never scored more than 5 club goals in a season, and Modric hasn't done so for us.)

So, from the admittedly limited perspective of those stats, we're taking a hit from an average 34% strike rate to an average 10% strike rate. Over a 55 game season (just for the sake of a framework of comparison) that's 19 goals down to 6 goals, a deficit of 15. And what about when we take into account that many felt the second striker was the most urgent position to improve in our 442? We actually wanted more goals from the position we're thinking of changing to an attacking midfielder, not less. (Very sensible of us.) If 24 goals in 55 matches from the 'second / not Defoe striker' is actually what we're looking for, then to match that, the 4231 would need to provide 20 more goals worth of either goals or other benefits, over a season, than the raw statistics suggest will be forthcoming.

I'm not claiming it won't work, and the 'full season of 4231' is obviously a sound model for comparison only up to a certain degree of accuracy. For sure we'll concede less by playing it, the additional possession may provoke more goals from all our players, and perhaps we'll mostly play it where the intent is to match/stalemate or even, prosaically, draw with rather than outscore the opposition. But why should we be under any illusions about the fact we're sacrificing tested sources of very significant numbers of goals, for as yet untested benefits?

Underlying the statistics, Modric and Lennon shoot like ectomorphic 9 year old girls, and there must be reasons why Cole and Gio have never yet in their careers been prolific, despite continuously playing advanced positions. (Cole is much more a 6 than a 10 goal a season man, if you look at his record.) I don't know whether we've got the players to make a real success of 4231, whether we need a "15 goal midfielder", or whether our current lot can all step up simultaneously? :shrug:

Spurs have just had their most successful season in the Premier League ever, and they did it playing a 4-4-2 formation.

Which begs the question:

If it ain't broke, why fix it?

THFC6061 said:

Spurs have just had their most successful season in the Premier League ever, and they did it playing a 4-4-2 formation.

Which begs the question:

If it ain't broke, why fix it?

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Yes, it was our most successful season but we won nothing and the best teams played a combination of 433.

Why did you change your Cathode Ray Analogue Television? to a flat screen digital LCD, it was broke (I'm guessing).