In a 4-2-3-1 which players should be our 2 dM's

I don't like the fact that Bentaleb was played at all yesterday. He is a kid who looked tired v Burnley. He has masses of potential.
Mason has been influential in helping us grind out results. I think it is a great combo but I am not liking 4-5-1 and I am not liking the midfield 5 being overrun by relegation teams.

I have absolutely no idea.

As long as Spurs shift capoue outta town this window, then there are plenty of useful combinations with the remaining players.

For now Bentaleb starts with whoever you like, Mason, Dembele, Paulinho.... but the ACN is right around the corner and Spurs need Stambouli fit and confident for that time Bentaleb is away...

Mason and Bentaleb is a good combination and they're only going to get better. That's not to say that they can't be improved upon at this moment, but from the players we have available they're the one's that suit the system the most. Yes, they're still inconsistent but that's to be expected when between them they have so few games for the club. However, they're our two most mobile and energetic midfielders, they're both very comfortable on the ball and they both use it quickly. They can be sloppy but so can all the others. From the options we have, I would not prefer Capoue as he lacks any urgency or determination in his play, I would not prefer Dembele as he slows our play down constantly with his inability to release the ball purposefully, I would not prefer Stambouli as he is clearly not yet up to speed with our league and I would certainly not prefer Paulinho and his complete refusal to take responsibility for anything ever. There two are the best we have. Now, if we could bring in someone like Cabaye, or Milner from City, who both have experience, ability and leadership, then I would happily pair either of those with either of Bentaleb or Mason, and I wouldn't mind which of the other players we shipped out. However, if we can't ship out any of the others, and therefore can't bring in any superior players, then as it stands I do not see a better option than letting these two develop and understanding, improve individually and grow in stature and confidence.

Bentaleb and Mason is the best combo I've seen. I would be interested to see Mason and Dembele play together though. I know neither is exactly a sitting midfielder but they'd offer so much energy in the middle it would make up for it. Kinda like City use Toure and Fernandinho. I just get the feeling them two would bounce off each other very well. Dembele physical dominance, Mason the direct passing. Either is smart enough to make a run or to cover in behind the other based on the shape of the team.

Spurger King said:

No point in voting because this sums it up perfectly. I don't think there's any combination of those players that is good enough. At a push I'd go for Mason and Capoue, but that would still be pretty powderpuff.

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Would agree with this, I have said before that out real weakness is CM and one of the reasons our CB's get so much stick is that we have no one who protects them enough. Unless Stambouli can push on and improve we have no player who is good enough to do that job ( imo), for me its the position we have to look at improving first.

We shoul be playing a 433:

Mason Capoue. Bentaleb

If we must persist with a 4231, for now I'd go with Capoue and Bentaleb.

The bottom line though, is that it really won't matter too much who we play if Pochettino doesn't start getting the team working consciously, coherently and more diligently as a group.

I prefer we don't play with 2 defensive midfielders. Besides hardly any of the options are defensive midfielders.

I think we always play best when we have a playmaker alongside a defensive midfielder. Mason has done a great job in that role this season. Neither Paulinho or Dembele have proven suitable so far though. The trouble when playing 2 of Capoue, Stambouli and Bentaleb is that neither is good enough at joining the attack.

I think a new defensive midfielder is a must though because neither of ours actually plays the defensive role well enough. We need someone who tracks the runs from the opposition attacking midfield and who is stronger in the tackle. I think Bentaleb can become a quality player but he is too easily beaten to play that role. An experienced player who is already developed in this role is important.

Bus-Conductor said:

We shoul be playing a 433:

Mason Capoue. Bentaleb

If we must persist with a 4231, for now I'd go with Capoue and Bentaleb.

The bottom line though, is that it really won't matter too much who we play if Pochettino doesn't start getting the team working consciously, coherently and more diligently as a group.

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As a unit defensively that would probably be a lot better shielding our back 4, but in terms of possession and forward play? No way. That would send us straight back to the coma inducing dark days of Sandro Paulinho Dembele midfield threes. I think the main thing is your last point, to get them enough experience and tactical knowledge so they are working well as a group. Capoue Paulinho and Dembele might help them out on occasion but we already know neither are good enough in the long term so I think it's imperative that for the majority of matches we stick with Mason/Bentaleb to work through the growing pains.

idontgetit said:

Bentaleb and Mason is the best combo I've seen. I would be interested to see Mason and Dembele play together though. I know neither is exactly a sitting midfielder but they'd offer so much energy in the middle it would make up for it. Kinda like City use Toure and Fernandinho. I just get the feeling them two would bounce off each other very well. Dembele physical dominance, Mason the direct passing. Either is smart enough to make a run or to cover in behind the other based on the shape of the team.

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Fernandinho is much more tactically astute than Dembele or Mason though which is why I think he works well in the 2. He's like a Makalele or Deschamps and allows the other midfielder more freedom.

I think our main issues are going to be against top teams or teams that play a number 10 Eg Utd.

While I think Mason and Bentaleb are our best options against most teams I don't think they offer enough protection to the back 4. Utd have been playing 3412 lately and I dread to think how much space Mata or whoever plays the 1 will get.

As a fee others have mentioned we need to play a 433 on some occasions imo.

Eriksen - Kane - Lamela/Chadli
Bentaleb - Someone defensive - Mason

For the someone defensive I'd like to think Stambouli but he just looks so slow at the moment and seems to be off the pace in terms of positioning, often seems to be behind the play and chasing back.

Someone mentioned playing Vlad there and i'd actually love to see this but unfortunately all the games are too big to start experimenting.

walworthyid said:

I don't know why we didn't go after Alex song.

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He seems to have realised his career was slipping away and wised up now, but that doesn't change what his standing was in the summer. Arse laughed all the way to the bank with £16m for a DM who didn't defend, at Barca he was a joke and barely played because of that, and at the WC he was an idiot. He'd probably not be doing nearly as well without someone like Allardyce giving his ego a good kicking either.

DEFchenkOE said:

Fernandinho is much more tactically astute than Dembele or Mason though which is why I think he works well in the 2. He's like a Makalele or Deschamps and allows the other midfielder more freedom.

I think our main issues are going to be against top teams or teams that play a number 10 Eg Utd.

While I think Mason and Bentaleb are our best options against most teams I don't think they offer enough protection to the back 4. Utd have been playing 3412 lately and I dread to think how much space Mata or whoever plays the 1 will get.

As a fee others have mentioned we need to play a 433 on some occasions imo.

Eriksen - Kane - Lamela/Chadli
Bentaleb - Someone defensive - Mason

For the someone defensive I'd like to think Stambouli but he just looks so slow at the moment and seems to be off the pace in terms of positioning, often seems to be behind the play and chasing back.

Someone mentioned playing Vlad there and i'd actually love to see this but unfortunately all the games are too big to start experimenting.

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Preaching to the choir on 4-3-3. Bentaleb, Capoue or Stamboulli can play the sitting role fine, Vlad would be really risky.

Mason and Dembele is the perfect combination of energy and power. Mason and Bentaleb is just too weak a pairing and easily ripped to shreds like against Chelsea and Swansea. Our defence is getting alot of crap but the truth is that they have nothing in front of them.

ClintEastwould said:

As a unit defensively that would probably be a lot better shielding our back 4, but in terms of possession and forward play? No way. That would send us straight back to the coma inducing dark days of Sandro Paulinho Dembele midfield threes. I think the main thing is your last point, to get them enough experience and tactical knowledge so they are working well as a group. Capoue Paulinho and Dembele might help them out on occasion but we already know neither are good enough in the long term so I think it's imperative that for the majority of matches we stick with Mason/Bentaleb to work through the growing pains.

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It wouldn't send us back into the coma of Sandro, Paulinho and Dembele because it's not Sandro, Paulinho and Dembele. Mason, Bentaleb and Capoue are all good passing footballers, and playing Capoue as a central hub would allow both Mason and Bentaleb more license to get forward.

Besides, right now I'd welcome comatose control of matches over the utter abject surrender of them. This is lottery football and we've been very lucky with our numbers.

How we play isn't really about the formation anyway, it's about how we are coached, our collective mindset and application.

At the moment still Mason and Bentaleb.

Bents had a shocker but it happens.

This combo is still first choice imo, until we can another option in.

JaySpur said:

We don't always need or require 2 orthodox DM's in that system. 2 complete CM's with defensive and attacking abilities would be an ideal combination for the vast majority of games.

Coaching our players to add to their skillset, of any deficienies, would see us set well for the future.

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Spot on and this is half the problem. Why the fk are we playing 2 in front of the back 4 against really really piss poor teams.
It invites them to attack and is counter productive.
It slows down our play so much we barely shoot.
If we'd gone at Leicester they'd have been shit scared to come out of their own half.
Id rather watch us trying to break them down than watch the fkin Alamo in our goal area.
AVB did the same shit at home against giants like Norwich. Dumb.
IMO Id only like to see this formation against top 4 or 5 teams not bloody cannon fodder.

Bentaleb and Mason. As others point out, they're still inexperienced at this level but they possess the makings of a good partnership - can move the ball quickly and efficiently and have bit of bite to their game.

Ideally I'd love to move on a few of the other options we have, who are not suited to the way we're playing, and bring in an experienced/quality option like Cabaye. Would compliment Mason/Bentaleb really well.

RuskyM said:

Bentaleb and another.

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Why? I really don't get all the praise heaped on Bentaleb. Every midfield partnership he has been in has looked defensively weak right back to Sherwood's time, and yet he is frequently touted as our 'holding' player option. My assessment of him goes;

Pro;
Neat and tidy with the ball. Passes quickly in tight situations. Sometimes effective with long range passes.

Con;
Doesn't tackle very well. Pulls out of 50/50 challenges.
Doesn't track back well when possession is lost.
Doesn't mark very well at set pieces.
Doesn't take players on and beat them.
Doesn't create chances.
Doesn't provide a goal threat.

I know he is young (blah blah), but potentially world class???

Personally with the current options and the other options in other roles I think we should forget two in midfield and play 3.

It's not that we have bad mids, but we have three full backs who can't defend and a fourth in Davies still developing his defensive game. We have three CB's out of four that are not really starter level quality for the PL and a fourth in Dier still very much at a learning stage
The only attacker we currently have with any real clue how to defend and when to drop back and help is Lennon

A two man midfield simply has too much obligation on two players both physically and in terms of skill and character

Even with two physically strong, high energy, multi skilled mids there would be a lot of demand, at least until the attacking players start to learn when and how to help support the defence and until the defence itself gets stronger

Can someone give me a breakdown of all the quick transitional passing sequences originated from Mason/Bentaleb that have sprung major attacks (and led to clear cut chances) in our last 4 league games against Palace, Swansea, Burnley, and Leicester? Because off the top of my head, I can't think of a single one. Mason played very well for a stretch of games earlier in the season, and Bentaleb played well against Everton and Chelsea in the first half (and Newcastle in the cup game), but the way people are talking about them here is as if they have been instrumental in us winning matches recently, which they have not. We are winning matches because of our front 4.

We remain one of the only teams in the league with ZERO goals from the central midfield. Neither Mason or Bentaleb are particularly creative in the final third, neither are great chance creators in the final third (I can only think of one or two through balls either have played in the last few weeks), and most importantly--neither provide defensive shielding in the middle (we've been wide open in our recent games against mid-table and lower teams). If you're not going to chip in with creativity going forward, then you better be shielding the back four, at the least.

Now let's be clear, that doesn't mean these aren't two very good squad options and potential fixtures in the XI down the road, but if everyone is about merit here, there's no way on recent performances anyone can say these two should be a lock to start going forward (it makes even less sense for Bentaleb to start, as he'll be leaving for a long stretch soon and we need to form a new partnership in anticipation of that).

Pochettino was brought here for his reputation to improve players. He needs to get the best out of Dembele, Paulinho, and Capoue. They all are talented and have had some phenomenal games in the past for us. Neither Dembele or Paulinho have gotten much of a run of games to show their worth this season, but that's about to change in my opinion. Dembele was excellent against Sunderland, poor against West Brom (like everyone that day) and he hasn't started another game since. He deserves a run of games, as he's been solid in sub appearances lately (completely changed the game versus Swansea in my opinion), and if given a chance against United, I predict everyone here will be singing his praises afterwards.