In a 4-2-3-1 which players should be our 2 dM's

[Bus-Conductor]

i also think it sounds good on paper that the attacking threat out wide comes from the full backs but i can't help but think people have unrealistic expectations of them. as gary neville said, full backs are either failed centre backs or wingers who don't quite have the quality on the ball to play further forward, so expecting them to go up and down the pitch a hundred times a game whilst defending diligently and contributing incisive play at the other end is a massive ask. it's also thoroughly annoying when one of our full backs has gone forward trying to supply the width and we get countered on we hear screams of "rose!/walker! so out of position!!".

So are you saying you don't believe full backs should provide a wide attacking dimension to teams ?

I find it hard to believe you actually believe that, which leads me to think sometimes you just say shit like this to get some reps from idiots who think it has a pithy ring to it.

 

[Blake Griffin]

So are you saying you don't believe full backs should provide a wide attacking dimension to teams ?

I find it hard to believe you actually believe that, which leads me to think sometimes you just say shit like this to get some reps from idiots who think it has a pithy ring to it.

i think they should provide some attacking threat but they shouldn't be solely relied upon. you wouldn't expect eriksen to be able to defend as well as a full back so to expect a full back to offer the same quality in the final third is unrealistic imo, they're defenders for a reason. i think it's the most demanding position on the pitch in a system like this.

as for your 2nd point, if i was posting to get reps then i'm not doing a very good job of it considering i have over a thousand negs.

 

[Lilbaz]

i think they should provide some attacking threat but they shouldn't be solely relied upon. you wouldn't expect eriksen to be able to defend as well as a full back so to expect a full back to offer the same quality in the final third is unrealistic imo, they're defenders for a reason. i think it's the most demanding position on the pitch in a system like this.

as for your 2nd point, if i was posting to get reps then i'm not doing a very good job of it considering i have over a thousand negs.

321 Blake.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is what Sherwood said last year and got slated for it.

That's not exactly what he (or more accurately Les Ferdinand) continually said. He(they) said that he doesn't believe in defensive midfielders.

It's is a nonsensical statement that has no real meaning.

 

[dannythomas]

I find it bemusing that so many people refer to the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 as Defensive Midfielders. They really don't have to be. In fact they shouldn't be, otherwise you will have very little fluency between defense and attack.

For sure, it requires discipline for one of the pair to stay back when the other has gone forwards. But two out and out DMs? No way.

PS - I'm all for the long-term Mason and Bentaleb play. Take the pain this season. Be awesome next year.

They may not have to be out and out defensive players but they have to be able to defend. They are covering the space between the back 4 and the 3 offensive midfielders.
I'm not totally convinced that either Mason or Bentaleb has the requisite defensive abilities. That ability can be inherent in someone that reads the game and anticipates the next move like Carrick. We are not blessed with a player like that . Or we could have a real complete midfielder like Roy Keane or Gerrard. Either Bentaleb or Mason would be fine next to someone like either Carrick or Gerrard or Keane. But personally I don't support pairing them together. We need to sign a Schneiderlin type and both Bentaleb and Mason would be great options next to him.

 

[Lilbaz]

That's exactly not what he (or more accurately Les Ferdinand) continually said. He(they) said that he doesn't believe in defensive midfielders.

It's is a nonsensical statement that has no real meaning.

It depends on what your definition of a defensive midfielder. Ferdinand said that Makelele was a defensive midfielder but that Viera was not. They trained Bentaleb and Mason to be more than just solely defensive. But haters gonna hate.

 

[prawnsandwich]

That's exactly not what he (or more accurately Les Ferdinand) continually said. He(they) said that he doesn't believe in defensive midfielders.

It's is a nonsensical statement that has no real meaning.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/engla...ood-against-holding-midfielders-les-ferdinand

 

[Bus-Conductor]

i think they should provide some attacking threat but they shouldn't be solely relied upon. you wouldn't expect eriksen to be able to defend as well as a full back so to expect a full back to offer the same quality in the final third is unrealistic imo, they're defenders for a reason. i think it's the most demanding position on the pitch in a system like this.

as for your 2nd point, if i was posting to get reps then i'm not doing a very good job of it considering i have over a thousand negs.

I don't know what unrealistic expectations you're referring to ? No one thinks they are to be solely relied upon, just to form part of a multi faceted approach to attacking.

And that has been the case for decades and will continue to be. Regardless of what it looks like on paper (whatever that means) or what Neville's opinion of a FB's evolutionary career journey is.

And the accepted difficulty of the remit doesn't excuse them for the stupid, careless and lazy things they sometimes do.

 

[Blake Griffin]

321 Blake.

well disagrees and spams count as neutral but we all know they're a neg rating. i think most on here see me as being contrarian so i thought it was a bit of a strange insult.

 

[yojambo]

That's exactly not what he (or more accurately Les Ferdinand) continually said. He(they) said that he doesn't believe in defensive midfielders.

It's is a nonsensical statement that has no real meaning.

Arrigo Sacchi agrees however, saying football should not be a sport of individual specialists.

 

[Lilbaz]

well disagrees and spams count as neutral but we all know they're a neg rating. i think most on here see me as being contrarian so i thought it was a bit of a strange insult.

Spam is a negative. Disagree just means that someone disagrees with your post. This place would be boring if we all agreed. Just some people don't need to be rude about it. So keep going Blake.

 

[Blake Griffin]

That's not exactly what he (or more accurately Les Ferdinand) continually said. He(they) said that he doesn't believe in defensive midfielders.

It's is a nonsensical statement that has no real meaning.

well i think he said he doesn't believe in defensive midfielders who can't do anythng with the ball, which i agree with. they're only useful to help see out a game.

I don't know what unrealistic expectations you're referring to ? No one thinks they are to be solely relied upon, just to form part of a multi faceted approach to attacking.

And that has been the case for decades and will continue to be. Regardless of what it looks like on paper (whatever that means) or what Neville's opinion of a FB's evolutionary career journey is.

And the accepted difficulty of the remit doesn't excuse them for the stupid, careless and lazy things they sometimes do.

not only do you want them to do two jobs(and expect them to provide the required quality at both ends) but you want two players to be responsible for 2/3 of the pitch going forward while the other eight all funnel centrally. i think it's massively unrealistic to expect consistent quality if that's their roles, what do you want them to do when they do actually get down the outside as from what i remember, you're hardly a big proponent on crossing the ball? you put more emphasis on walker providing an attacking threat than you do lamela - who as long as he gets his three interceptions and three tackles a game you're hunky dory with.

 

[double0]

Bentaleb and Mason imo are the best combination we have and ever since they've been paired we win more then we lose. ...what is also great both will get better.

Our problems are at CB mainly Vertonghen and we need Kane to start getting doubles and hatricks. A lot to expect from Kane but I believe he has the capabilites to do it, his development records and previous levels suggest so to.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It depends on what your definition of a defensive midfielder. Ferdinand said that Makelele was a defensive midfielder but that Viera was not. They trained Bentaleb and Mason to be more than just solely defensive. But haters gonna hate.

That was meant to say "not exactly what the said" by the way.

It's just a nonsense statement on all levels. Like any Cm isn't going to need some competent defensive skills too to be viable. Like any coach in his right mind would have two Modric's in a CM2 ? Or like you'd want a DM with no footballing ability at all. Makalele could play football, but Chelsea won the title partly because of the defensive diligence he brought to the mixture. ManU Keane, ManC recently DeJong/Fernandinho, Chelsea now Matic.

 

[Blake Griffin]

That was meant to say "not exactly what the said" by the way.

It's just a nonsense statement on all levels. Like any Cm isn't going to need some competent defensive skills too to be viable. Like any coach in his right mind would have two Modric's in a CM2 ? Or like you'd want a DM with no footballing ability at all. Makalele could play football, but Chelsea won the title partly because of the defensive diligence he brought to the mixture. ManU Keane, ManC recently DeJong/Fernandinho, Chelsea now Matic.

ancelotti does it.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

well i think he said he doesn't believe in defensive midfielders who can't do anythng with the ball, which i agree with. they're only useful to help see out a game.



not only do you want them to do two jobs(and expect them to provide the required quality at both ends) but you want two players to be responsible for 2/3 of the pitch going forward while the other eight all funnel centrally. i think it's massively unrealistic to expect consistent quality if that's their roles, what do you want them to do when they do actually get down the outside as from what i remember, you're hardly a big proponent on crossing the ball? you put more emphasis on walker providing an attacking threat than you do lamela - who as long as he gets his three interceptions and three tackles a game you're hunky dory.

That's just rubbish. I want Walker to provide a wide option, I want him to not make silly errors, like having 4 team mates to choose from and kick it to the only opponent in the vicinity. I want him to get his head up and aim a pass at someone deliberately when he has the opportunity. I want him to be as positionally astute as the situation allows.

I want Lamela to create and contribute to our attacking play - like playing the pass for Chadli for the first goal yesterday or like the goal he scored last week, or like the chance he made for Kane yesterday and last saturday - and I also want him to work defensively when he doesn't have the ball, to help protect his CM's and his FB.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

ancelotti does it.

No he doesn't. Kroos isn't Modric. He makes more tackles than anyone in their team.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Spam is a negative. Disagree just means that someone disagrees with your post. This place would be boring if we all agreed. Just some people don't need to be rude about it. So keep going Blake.

oh, it's the wtf's and doh's that are neutral. i don't dish out reds and greys, i think it's petty. i'd rather quote them and start a fight that way

 

[Bus-Conductor]

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/engla...ood-against-holding-midfielders-les-ferdinand[/QUOT

I don't get why you posted that? I agree that is what they said. But it's meaningless and is factually incorrect as it's not what AVB did.

 

[Blake Griffin]

No he doesn't. Kroos isn't Modric. He makes more tackles than anyone in their team.

that doesn't say much. kroos isn't a defensive midfielder, prior to moving to madrid he's played the bulk of his career further forward than modric. if we had two players exactly like them but lower in quality you'd be wetting your pants at the thought of playing them in a cm2, especially when it's alongside other players you'd consider powderpuff like bale, james, isco etc. your idea of going for it is taking off your 3rd defensive midfielder for a central midfielder with five minutes to go.