Poch needs to take a long hard look at himself.

Hazardousman · Nov 23, 2016

muppetman said:
I think we are going to get raped at Stamford Bridge, no doubt about it - we just can't let it define our season. Take the loss, accept why and then regroup and move on from there.

Don't get me wrong I hope we raise our game and beat them but we can't let it define our season. They are at full strength, have no European fixtures and are at home. We just need to keep it in perspective. It's a long season and we need to treat it as such - not go mental and lose a bunch of players to suspension that has a larger knock on effect.

I'd also ask what constitutes a "bad way", 5th? 6th? 10th? When you look at all metrics for spending we should be 6th - therefore what constitutes bad? Our expectations have risen after last season (rightly so) but we need to be sensible, dropping down to 6th for a while would hardly be the end of the world.

If we get beaten and we put in a good performance I can stomach that, if we get beaten like we did tonight or just don't bother to turn up then that's a different matter, it's all about the way in which we approach the game that I judge on, results in football are never predictable, we could play Chelsea off the park and still lose, we could equally play shocking and win.

The main thing to me is seeing positive progression the attitude of the players and the tactics of the manager, I do agree with you however on your other points.

When I say "bad way" I am more referring to the manner of our performances rather than league position, league position should only be judged at the end of the season, if we go into the New Year on a bad run, looking like we aren't pressing or our attitude isn't right, looking like we aren't doing the basics right, looking like we are regressing in terms of our performances, that's would be my concern more than anything.

Obviously league position is important, if we are 10th after the New Year then that would be a concern for anybody I imagine but the manner of our performances and how our manager is reacting tactically to our displays is of more importance (to me at least.)

SpursDave88 · Nov 23, 2016

Frankly I think we have disgraced the Champions League with our performances and don't deserve to be there. If this is what we are going to serve up then we should not qualify. Trippier, Dier, Wimmer, Winks, Sissoko, Son and Janssen are not Champions League players and do not deserve to be playing at the top level. The defending for the second Monaco goal was probably the worst I have seen at any level of the professional game and I blame Pochettino for that. Bear in mind there is not one Monaco player that would start for a top six PL side....pathetic.

LexingtonSpurs · Nov 23, 2016

Not even going to read this - but perhaps injuries and fitness have forced Poch into making some awkward lineups/formations.

When we were consistent - we played the same 4231 line-up every week, with, mostly, the same players. Players new exactly what was expected of them, and they largely delivered.

This season, injuries, suspensions, and fitness have thrown that all out the window. I give Poch credit for trying some different things with the line-up when we have a number of people out. But, the downside is we have players adapting to new tactics/roles all the time. So, this is for all the people who were complaining last season that Poch never changes things up - now he has, and you are still complaining that the squad is inconsistent.

You can't have it both ways...

Hazardousman · Nov 23, 2016

crokey said:
I'm down for banning everyone in this thread from the forum

Because we are discussing how we can improve and being critical of a human being when human beings are imperfect and capable of mistakes?

Does this mean we should ban any opinion that isn't magical unicorns pooping out overly optimistic viewpoints and adhering to peoples safe space?

Fortunately this forum is one of the very few places left that isn't an echo chamber and is capable of multiple view points and good discussion so thankfully the mod's don't share your viewpoint.

13VanDerBale13 · Nov 23, 2016

MAURICIO: "At this level you cannot concede goals the way we did. You will always pay in this competition. We're very disappointed."

HaHa maybe if you fucking played your best available defence we wouldnt be conceding the goals we did

SpursDave88 · Nov 23, 2016

LexingtonSpurs said:
Not even going to read this - but perhaps injuries and fitness have forced Poch into making some awkward lineups/formations.

When we were consistent - we played the same 4231 line-up every week, with, mostly, the same players. Players new exactly what was expected of them, and they largely delivered.

This season, injuries, suspensions, and fitness have thrown that all out the window. I give Poch credit for trying some different things with the line-up when we have a number of people out. But, the downside is we have players adapting to new tactics/roles all the time. So, this is for all the people who were complaining last season that Poch never changes things up - now he has, and you are still complaining that the squad is inconsistent.

You can't have it both ways...

I give Poch no credit, the line-up and formations in recent games have shown that he is clueless

crokey · Nov 23, 2016

Hazardousman said:
Because we are discussing how we can improve and being critical of a human being when human beings are imperfect and capable of mistakes?

Does this mean we should ban any opinion that isn't magical unicorns pooping out overly optimistic viewpoints and adhering to peoples safe space?

Fortunately this forum is one of the very few places left that isn't an echo chamber and is capable of multiple view points and good discussion so thankfully the mod's don't share your viewpoint.

Too many are just incapable of thinking rationally after an event like tonight. There's no discussion in here it's just emotional bile.

Hazardousman · Nov 23, 2016

crokey said:
Too many are just incapable of thinking rationally. There's no discussion in here it's just emotional bile.

Some overly emotional reactions I agree, which is natural given the fact we just got dumped out of the champions league however I do believe rational discussion exists in this thread aplenty, lots of logical questions being asked and plenty of recognition that we need to improve.

I have only seen maybe 1-2 suggestions that Poch's job should be in question, I think the rest have been questioning his tactics and decisions and I think those are valid concerns personally, I don't think it's emotional to suggest we need to improve.

Qualsonic · Nov 23, 2016

Do you REALLY want Poch gone?

He clearly didn't see CL as the priority, presumably wanting to grow into a team that constantly qualifies before taking it more seriously.

I'm as disappointed, ashamed even, that we fall out at this early stage in a group that shouldn't have posed any problems, but I still see Poch as the man to take us forward - we need to grow together, team, manager and fans - and take the hits on the way to world domination

Hazardousman · Nov 23, 2016

EyeTieNick said:
Do you REALLY want Poch gone?

He clearly didn't see CL as the priority, presumably wanting to grow into a team that constantly qualifies before taking it more seriously.

I'm as disappointed, ashamed even, that we fall out at this early stage in a group that shouldn't have posed any problems, but I still see Poch as the man to take us forward - we need to grow together, team, manager and fans - and take the hits on the way to world domination

No, I do not want Poch gone, I want him to assess himself and improve, I never said I want him gone.

Mustard · Nov 23, 2016

millsey said:
Aren't we going over the top that poch binned it off. He rested 2 players, vert and walker. Walker came off injured 3 days ago so maybe wasn't 100 percent and Trippier never let us down. Guessing poch didn't think vert could do 3 games in a week, last season Toby could play Europa and league but Vert never did. but would we have won with him? I doubt it

I think the key point is we are missing our only world class outfield player.

millsey · Nov 23, 2016

Hazardousman said:
No, I do not want Poch gone, I want him to assess himself and improve, I never said I want him gone.

Which he will

St José Dominguez · Nov 23, 2016

EyeTieNick said:
Do you REALLY want Poch gone?

He clearly didn't see CL as the priority, presumably wanting to grow into a team that constantly qualifies before taking it more seriously.

I'm as disappointed, ashamed even, that we fall out at this early stage in a group that shouldn't have posed any problems, but I still see Poch as the man to take us forward - we need to grow together, team, manager and fans - and take the hits on the way to world domination

I don't want him gone, think it would be one of the stupidest sackings in PL history. However personally I don't think he's doing that great a job this season. Ignoring our shambolic, embarrassing CL campaign which made last season kind of pointless.

We sack off the league cup and rest our players to then draw 1-1 with a Leicester team who are shocking away from home.

We're better defensively at detriment of attack. We seem to have stopped pressing and look so tepid. I don't have a clue where the brave, positive football of last season has gone.

He's suddenly decided to abandon the formation of last season to randomly try out new formations. None of which are working.

Everything good Son has done has come from playing on the left so he decides to start playing him elsewhere.

Alli was at his best playing off Kane centrally so he decides to play him on the left or right.

Eriksen is so woefully out of form, I'd blame the player if it wasn't for fact that Alli, Son, Lamela, Sissoko and Janssen weren't playing just as badly.

His game management at times is so bad. Today for example, it was so clear we had no width and they were doubling up down wings yet he did nothing. Made even worse by fact it was same against West Ham but I guess cos we won we played well apparently. He changes it by removing only winger on pitch (who was playing up front) and bringing on a striker. Bringing on Eriksen and putting him CM. So we had literally 6 players all playing centrally.

I want us to return to how we were last season, playing 4231 and actually being brave. We're boring to watch right now. I don't know if he's overcomplicating things, overworking players or what. He's been unlucky with injuries but doesn't mean I forgive him for in my opinion continually picking the wrong players in the wrong formation.

We question players performance constantly, these last few weeks is first time I'm questioning Poch's performance.

crokey · Nov 23, 2016

Hazardousman said:
Some overly emotional reactions I agree, which is natural given the fact we just got dumped out of the champions league however I do believe rational discussion exists in this thread aplenty, lots of logical questions being asked and plenty of recognition that we need to improve.

I have only seen maybe 1-2 suggestions that Poch's job should be in question, I think the rest have been questioning his tactics and decisions and I think those are valid concerns personally, I don't think it's emotional to suggest we need to improve.

We need to improve to what? People are looking for consistent performances from every player in every game with zero mistakes. Never can a player be outmatched by an opponent on a key attribute like technical ability, physical qualities as Trippier was today or the player is labelled as awful and a waste of space etc. Every one of our payers has to be better at every single component of football than every single opposition player in every single game or else there is outcry. It's just an impossibility.

We have more points and less defeats than this point last season in the league - and we have had a lot more difficult midweek games. There's many different factors. Some of them are the responsibility of Pochettino, most are outwith his control. Our squad is better. Our defensive play is better at the moment. Our attacking play is poor at the moment. We have more injuries. We have a few players settling in. Lots of factors.

Individual performances tonight could have been much better, and we struggled against a good Monaco team who had a few great individual performances. Our tactics were fine, we just had a mismatch with Trippier against their left sided players, and our Centre back pairing had a poor game. We played centrally too much because neither Trippier nor Rose could overwhelm the opposition wide players, which is what we need to happen with our tactics. We weren't playing Accrington Stanley. Often people forget that the other team are actually trying to win the match too, we aren't in a training session.

You made a point I've also made before that humans are imperfect. The players are imperfect. If Pochettino was playing a simulated game of FIFA where every team had identical players and he went on a poor run then maybe it would all be his fault. But that is not the case. He sets up a team and tactics for a particular game then sends 11 imperfect beings out there to execute his imperfect plan. Sometimes it goes fantastic. Sometimes it goes OK. Sometimes it goes badly wrong. Just like for every other manager in history.

Nobody has a problem with criticism or looking for areas we can improve, just make a balanced argument.

We are improving. We just don't play well in every football match. Just like every football team that has ever played this sport.

yiddo · Nov 23, 2016

There is no one clear cause for all our struggles this season, I feel it is a combination of a few.

1. Attacking wise, tactically we have lost our way this season.
2. Several key players are underperforming massively.
3. Injuries and lack of quality depth.

Points 2 & 3 have probably contributed to 1 but to say its just because of them is not correct in my opinion.
As has already been pointed out on here, for some reason for most part of the season our intensity has disappeared. This is down to Poch to fix and no one else, if he cant get that going again then I think we are in trouble.
Resolving that may also bring our attacking threat back because currently our build up play is so slow the opposition is just finding it far too easy to defend against. If it weren't for a number of penalties this season the situation would be a lot worse.

The form of Dier, Eriksen, Dele & Lamela has played a significant part. The only times we have looked anywhere near like last season was when Son has played well. If Son hasn't played well, I cant remember one occasion where any of the mentioned 4 or the new signings have stepped up this season. Is that all down to Poch's tactics? Possibly but more than likely not.

Any team would be affected if they lost their main central defender and striker for a period of time. But we have also had Dembele missing and now Lamela of late too. It seems we haven't been able to get any kind of consistency in the side. As soon as 1 is back another one is out.

But I think first and foremost we need the intensity back.

Mustard · Nov 23, 2016

If Son had finished early on.....if we had defended after scoring.....

But yes...I think Poch fucked up.

Cravenspurs · Nov 23, 2016

Hazardousman said:
We can sit here and blame the players but I think that would be too easy at this point, Poch seems to have granted himself lots of excuses because of last season but we seem to be massively regressing and fast.

There are a few reasons why I believe we are, the first is his absolute persistence with Wanyama in midfield, don't get me wrong, Wanyama is a tidy player, I like him, however we have basically taken away what was working last season for no apparent reason other than to force Wanyama in the side. Tactically it has made us more predictable, less offensive, it is congesting our central midfield and suffocating our attacking play, Poch needs to remove his favouritism and stop being stubborn, that was the very thing that got AVB sacked.

Wimmer and Verts are perfectly capable of playing at CB, we need to take more risks going forward, introduce Dier/Dembele in midfield and let Wanyama sit one out on the bench, I thought that was why we brought him in anyway? As cover? Not as a replacement for Dier?

We may be unbeaten in the league but it is utterly destroying us going forward, once we lose our first game (and trust me, it's coming, West Ham was a get out of jail free card) then this season is going to start looking a lot worse than it is currently.

Secondly, our performances in the CL have been not only utterly disgraceful but completely embarrassing, we spend years trying to get back into this competition and then this is how we perform? We somehow managed to perform worse than we did in the EL, how that is even possible I will never know, is he not motivating the players anymore?

That brings me to my next point, something has changed, you can see it, the players aren't running as hard as they were last season, they aren't pressing like they were, you can see the passion isn't there, I have to seriously ask the question now, what's going on? Has he lost a few of them? Are some of them getting a little bit too big for their own boots? Is Poch training them too hard? Are they losing faith in him as a manager slightly? Is his favouritism annoying certain players?

I mean, it's hard to really understand what's going on but I certainly do believe a lot of the issues we are having right now are because of Poch, we should not be regressing like we are in terms of the football we are playing, I know many will say we are unbeaten and cite us coming back to beat West Ham as proof of passion remaining and I do agree to some extent but I also think that West Ham game was a team in 17th place, shipping goals for fun most weeks who gave away two very sloppy goals, I don't think it's an indication of how great we were because frankly West Ham could have beaten us, they were very comfortable for the majority of the game and they are a team in turmoil, the fact is this, that Man City performance was leagues above anything we have seen since and we have had a worrying drop off since then.

I don't think our injuries are the problem either, I think tactically we are suffering, we are not going wide enough, not using our FB's enough, we are congesting the midfield trying to play the ball through, our attacking players are not moving around enough, not unpredictable enough because the system is too defensively rigid, we are a far cry from last season frankly and on top of all of that our pressing is basically gone, it just isn't happening anymore.

Poch isn't above criticism, I think something needs to change and fast because the way we are going it is only going to get worse, it can basically go one or two ways, we are going to improve and improve fast and this season will turn out to be one to remember or we are going to regress even further and if the latter happens well, I worry for us, I really do because the team morale isn't exactly high as things stand, we start adding a few losses and it could get really bad.

I hope Poch isn't feeling too comfortable, he needs to ask questions of his own decisions and the players and rectify the mistakes before it's too late, last season means nothing now, it's over, we have to start understanding that if we want to go forward as a club we have to start showing we have the mentality and the heart and the spirit to do so but more importantly, the intelligence to do so as well.

I agree with a lot of that, but I do think we are still using our FBs quite a lot. In fact I think they might be getting even more time on the ball. They just aren't getting the ball in as dangerous of areas or they don't have the same space.

All comes down to the midfield, which you alluded to.

Bobbins · Nov 23, 2016

Hopefully we'll use this disappointment to fuel a serious effort to win the FA Cup, restore some pride and keep up our important record of winning a trophy every decade.

Realistically though we'll probably just insultingly fuck it off like we do every season in the annual slog to try and get top four ahead of five other teams who spend ten times what we do.

mano-obe · Nov 23, 2016

I don't understand how we went from being one of the most entertaining teams in the league, to a pedestrian style of play with no intensity. It stinks of AVB's brand of football.

Toby needs to get back soon, same with Lamela. A bit of urgency and Son and Eriksen to hit some earlier form please. Sort it out Ponch

Hoops · Nov 23, 2016

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