4-4-2 next season, I have no clue

[joey55]

Joey
I find it a little surprising that people are still convinced Ramos only likes one formation when he has demonstrated already (both poor choices on the day I felt though) a couple of times that he very prepared to alter his starting formation. Even at Sevilla it wasn't a strict 442. Kanoute often played very, very deep almost as an attacking midfielder with the wide men (inc fb's) bombing on and around the attack.
He tried to get Berbatov to play this role, but to be honest I don't think he was quite as good at it as Kanoute who is probably tailor made for it. Berbatov was better in the role than Keane (who Jol mistakenly tried to play there) because Berbatov isn't as scared of contact as Keane (which is vital in this role).

You say you think Ramos tried to sign Downing, but I find that hard to believe. The ITK (which could have been bollocks) suggested Ramos actually blocked it. The thing is Downing's agent was interviewed on SSN saying how much he would relish a move to spurs, so I find it very hard to believe that if Ramos ("he who must not be denied") wanted him we wouldn't have signed him. Don't you ?

No. If the price isn't right we wouldn't have signed him. It wouldn't have got to the stage it did if Ramos hadn't have wanted him. We wouldn't have even made an inquiry if Ramos didn't want him. We wouldn't even consider him an option unless Ramos wanted him. And judging Downings form since, Ramos was right in wanting him. I suspect the issue was that we also needed to spend in other areas and they wanted more for Downing they we were prepared to pay and we perhaps concluded we'd be better off saving the money and looking at different options in the summer when more players are available. The idea of Ramos blocking a deal seems unbelievable. If a deal has got to a stage when it needs blocking, then Ramos should have already given his consent. Without Ramos wanting a player there should be nothing to block. Well at least if the club has learned anything in the last couple of years that should be the case.

And am I right in thinking that your latest criticism of Jol is that he played our strikers wrong? Given we scored an average of 1.19 goals per game last season and 2.07 per game until he was sacked this season, i don't think you can really criticise our froward play. Especially as since he's left we've scored slightly less at 1.75 per game. And seeing as between then Keane and Berba scored 45 goals in 80 games last season and 46 in 91 this season, I think it's fair to say, however Jol played them, it was very effective.

 

[Kendall]

In fact this raises an interesting question. Keane was our player of the season and did very well. However does anyone think that we'd have finished higher if we had followed suit and played like Villa have this season:

---------------------------Robbo-------------------------

---Hutton----------Woody--------King------------Bale----

----------Jenas---------Zokora--------Huddlestone--------

--------Lennon----------------------------Steed----------

-------------------------Berba----------------------------


Or like Everton:

---------------------------Robbo-------------------------

---Hutton----------Woody--------King------------Bale----

-------------------Zokora--------Huddlestone-------------

--------Lennon-------------Jenas---------------Steed----

---------------------------Berba--------------------------

So would dropping Keane have benefited the team?

only if we thought there was enough creativity in order for berba to play as a lone striker and I'm not convinced. I could change my mind with Modric in the team pulling the strings, but that midfield lacks a real spark to set Berbatov free.

 

[SpurSince57]

Villa have varied between 4-4-2 and 4-3-3.

Until our main dealings are complete, it's impossible to say what basic formation we'll favour. I don't think Ramos is inflexibly wedded to 4-4-2, any more than Jol was—anyone who listened to Jol's summaries during the WC should be aware of that. You have to make do with the players you have available.

I'm pretty sure that under Caparros Sevilla played 3-5-2; Ramos switched to 4-4-2 almost as soon as he took over. However, if Joey's right, he employed a different system at Malaga.

And as DEFchenkOE says, just because so many EPL sides use a 4-5-1 as an essentially spoiling formation does not mean it has to be employed in that fashion; those of us old and fortunate enough to have watched our 1987 team can attest to that.

But really, speculation at this point is a waste of time. All we know is that Ramos favours attack and will take risks. Which is fine by me.

 

[si_yidarmy]

4-4-2 is still the best formation depending on players (in my opinion)

I know that Utd and Chelsea have had success over recent years by switching to the 4-4-3 but when you have two strikers that work so well together i.e Berba and Keane, then you've got to play to their strenghts.

I'd love to see

................Robb

Hutton...King...Woodgate...Bale

Lennon...Jenas...Hudd....Modric

.............Keano...Berba

4-4-3 also works if you have the right players!

 

[yanno]

But really, speculation at this point is a waste of time. All we know is that Ramos favours attack and will take risks. Which is fine by me.

To which I'd simply add that Ramos desperately wants to win as well.

And although he is an attacking coach, he can be pragmatic when he respects the opposition: Dani Alves played in midfield at WHL in the UEFA Cup QF, with a very defensive RB behind him. I wouldn't be surprized to see Ramos devise very specific game plans for particular oppositions.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

No. If the price isn't right we wouldn't have signed him. It wouldn't have got to the stage it did if Ramos hadn't have wanted him. We wouldn't have even made an inquiry if Ramos didn't want him. We wouldn't even consider him an option unless Ramos wanted him. And judging Downings form since, Ramos was right in wanting him. I suspect the issue was that we also needed to spend in other areas and they wanted more for Downing they we were prepared to pay and we perhaps concluded we'd be better off saving the money and looking at different options in the summer when more players are available. The idea of Ramos blocking a deal seems unbelievable. If a deal has got to a stage when it needs blocking, then Ramos should have already given his consent. Without Ramos wanting a player there should be nothing to block. Well at least if the club has learned anything in the last couple of years that should be the case.

And am I right in thinking that your latest criticism of Jol is that he played our strikers wrong? Given we scored an average of 1.19 goals per game last season and 2.07 per game until he was sacked this season, i don't think you can really criticise our froward play. Especially as since he's left we've scored slightly less at 1.75 per game. And seeing as between then Keane and Berba scored 45 goals in 80 games last season and 46 in 91 this season, I think it's fair to say, however Jol played them, it was very effective.

So are you saying that you think Keane is better in the deeper hold up role than Berbatov ?

 

[SpurSince57]

To which I'd simply add that Ramos desperately wants to win as well.

And although he is an attacking coach, he can be pragmatic when he respects the opposition: Dani Alves played in midfield at WHL in the UEFA Cup QF, with a very defensive RB behind him. I wouldn't be surprized to see Ramos devise very specific game plans for particular oppositions.

We also saw Kanoute play as a third CB in the second half at WHL!

For me, that game embodies his thinking—start fast and throw the kitchen sink at us, grab a goal. In that, he was aided and abetted by Malbranque's schoolboy defending and the Chuckle Brothers' (AKA Chimbonda and Zokora) allowing Fredi to waltz into our area.

I have to confess, I'm still not totally convinced by his tactical nous. To begin with, I was carried away along with everyone else, but looking back… :shrug:

Dunno, basically.

 

[joey55]

So are you saying that you think Keane is better in the deeper hold up role than Berbatov ?

I think they both drop deep and there ahs been no real change other than what you've convinced yourself of. And at the end of the day whatever way produces the most goals is what counts.

 

[joey55]

We also saw Kanoute play as a third CB in the second half at WHL!

For me, that game embodies his thinking—start fast and throw the kitchen sink at us, grab a goal. In that, he was aided and abetted by Malbranque's schoolboy defending and the Chuckle Brothers' (AKA Chimbonda and Zokora) allowing Fredi to waltz into our area.

I have to confess, I'm still not totally convinced by his tactical nous. To begin with, I was carried away along with everyone else, but looking back… :shrug:

Dunno, basically.

I'm not convinced by the tactical nous of any Prem coach. You watch the better sides and their managers seem to make as many odd tactical decisions as those at the bottom. It's just so mush easier for tactical changes to come off, when you have great players at your disposal. I think tactics and their importance, beyond foramtion and player selection for that formation, are in general grossly over rated in the impact they have. If you make a change and it works, even via a deflected goal, you are a genius, but if you don't you are an idiot. Avram Grant can testify to that.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

No it doesn't Joey. Because what our strikers do also affects what the rest of the team do and how many goals we concede. Each time Keane gives up the ball because he refuses to jump or challenge or risk making contact with the opposition he is putting the other ten members of the team under pressure unecessarily.

The trouble with your constant reliance on stats (apart from the way you only use them selectively) is that invariably only relate to individual performance. And don't really take into account the many other unmeasured facets and dynamics of the team, it's opponents, etc etc. It's why I try hard not to over use personal stats as much as poss.

It's also why I found the recent post about the Canadian (american ?) baseball guy who uses different more team centric criteria for player analysis very interesting.

I know it's an old chestnut but the Kanoute/Mido stat that you and SS never cease to use as your fall back argument is a great case in point.

Only an absoloute bafoon would choose Mido over Kanoute. But according to bare stats that is exactly what you would do.

 

[joey55]

No it doesn't Joey. Because what our strikers do also affects what the rest of the team do and how many goals we concede. Each time Keane gives up the ball because he refuses to jump or challenge or risk making contact with the opposition he is putting the other ten members of the team under pressure unecessarily.

The trouble with your constant reliance on stats (apart from the way you only use them selectively) is that invariably only relate to individual performance. And don't really take into account the many other unmeasured facets and dynamics of the team, it's opponents, etc etc. It's why I try hard not to over use personal stats as much as poss.

It's also why I found the recent post about the Canadian (american ?) baseball guy who uses different more team centric criteria for player analysis very interesting.

I know it's an old chestnut but the Kanoute/Mido stat that you and SS never cease to use as your fall back argument is a great case in point.

Only an absoloute bafoon would choose Mido over Kanoute. But according to bare stats that is exactly what you would do.

B-C I'm hardly only reliant on stats. I explain what I'm trying to point out and then use stats to back it up. Also, and please answer this, do I not go to more effort than any other poster on the forum to illustrate my points to the point of uploading video and photographic evidence? To say my opinions are reliant on stats is absurd. To be honest your post is just annoying as when you do use stats you do usually do it with little explanation and very poorly (ie what you said about Zokora in the ITK thread), which is what you've just accussed me of doing. Stats are so useful if used correctly, but it's people like you that don't and i've pulled you up on it in the past. I really think given this your post is insanely hypocritical.

As for the Mido case, bare stats are quite important, because the bare stats show our we started winning more games with Mido in the side. And surely that is the ultimate stat? We've been through this argument so many times and you just refuse to acknowledge that it is more important that the team wins, than it is to do what you want. It was the same with the Davids argument. If ultimately our results suffer for the changes then you'd have a valid point. But when changes show an improvement in results, that is when you must concede. You didn't like the decision to opt for Mido over Kanoute, yet it paid off to the point where we came agonisingly close the CL. You didn't like getting rid of Davids, yet it paid off to the point where we have out best ever finish to a Prem season, going from mid table when he left the club to 5th (and as I've pointed out before bioth out ppg and goals against tally were far superior without than with him). You now are complaining about the way Jol played Keane and Berbs, yet he did so with great success. It so often seems that it doesn't matter how successful the managers ideas are, if you don't like them, you'll simply refuse to acknowledge their success. Fair enough if a change is made and results suffer because of it, but you don't seem to care, how changes effect results. You just want things your way or not at all. I said it a couple of weeks ago, but I can't help but feel that you the only thing that is stopping you really tearing into Ramos is that you made such a fuss and for so long about Jol.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But how can you use a set of stats as comparitive when the controlled units are completely different. Kanoute played in a different spurs side, against different sets of players and even different teams (relegation etc). How can you possibly hope to try and apply a scientific method when you can't even begin to replicate what "MIGHT" have happened if Kanoute had in fact played the following season with all the different elements in place. I could just as easily throw back Sevilla stats at you and say "thats what we would have achieved with him". It's completely hypothetical because there are a million different factors that would have changed second ny second if Kanoute had been playing that season than if Mido had.

The only thing I can say for certain is Kanoute is a better player in every single way than Mido bar none. I am confident that if he'd have played instead of mido we would have been a better team.

I'll leave it at that.


As far as Zokora goes I assumed you were aware of my most time consuming peice of research a few months back (you were maybe on your hiatus) where I compiled the stats for just about every CM in the EPL worth a wank (and some that aren't). It showed Zokorahad the joint highest pass completion (89% I think) in the EPL, the third highest pass attempt (proving it wasn't just through lack of attempts) and his tackling was pretty good too (can't remember but something like 6-8th).

Jol and Ramos both seem to agree that out of what we got he's probably the the most reliable performer. And I did suggest this was the case - without slagging off Jenas or Huddlestone etc - and backed it up with stats (at the time).

Lets not do the Zokora thing anymore though eh. I think even you would agree he's been one of our most consistant performers this year - most of his detractors was grudgingly admit that I think. And he was outstanding at Wembley I thought.

 

[joey55]

But how can you use a set of stats as comparitive when the controlled units are completely different. Kanoute played in a different spurs side, against different sets of players and even different teams (relegation etc). How can you possibly hope to try and apply a scientific method when you can't even begin to replicate what "MIGHT" have happened if Kanoute had in fact played the following season with all the different elements in place. I could just as easily throw back Sevilla stats at you and say "thats what we would have achieved with him". It's completely hypothetical because there are a million different factors that would have changed second ny second if Kanoute had been playing that season than if Mido had.

The only thing I can say for certain is Kanoute is a better player in every single way than Mido bar none. I am confident that if he'd have played instead of mido we would have been a better team.

I'll leave it at that.


As far as Zokora goes I assumed you were aware of my most time consuming peice of research a few months back (you were maybe on your hiatus) where I compiled the stats for just about every CM in the EPL worth a wank (and some that aren't). It showed Zokorahad the joint highest pass completion (89% I think) in the EPL, the third highest pass attempt (proving it wasn't just through lack of attempts) and his tackling was pretty good too (can't remember but something like 6-8th).

Jol and Ramos both seem to agree that out of what we got he's probably the the most reliable performer. And I did suggest this was the case - without slagging off Jenas or Huddlestone etc - and backed it up with stats (at the time).

Lets not do the Zokora thing anymore though eh. I think even you would agree he's been one of our most consistant performers this year - most of his detractors was grudgingly admit that I think. And he was outstanding at Wembley I thought.

Where did you get those stas from? They are just wrong. The passing % we all know is high and has been disscussed many times before and is part of his problem. But the passing attempts being third in the Prem? He's third in the Tottenham midfield. I have him down in 20th place of Prem midfielders. I can't think where you'd have got 3rd from. As for tackles, i have him ranked at 38th of Prem midfielders. Where did you get your stats from. I keep an eye on them every week and Zokora's have been this poor throughout the season.

As for Mido, I haven't tried to apply a scientific methid to anything. i've simply pointed out that the coach made the decision and it was a decison that seems to have paid off. You should be happy, but all you seem to do is complain. We finished 5th at the end of that season, by far our highest Prem finish. Mido was a major contributor to that. The most important thing is that Jol preffered Mido as he obviously felt he was better for the system he wanted to play. The fact we finshed 5th and greatly over achieved suggests that this system, which Mido was a key part of, was very successful. FFS, just be happy about it. It was a great season and for the first time in a long time we could be really proud of what we achieved. You just continually keep coming back to it, time and time again and it's so pointless.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Where did you get those stas from? They are just wrong. The passing % we all know is high and has been disscussed many times before and is part of his problem. But the passing attempts being third in the Prem? He's third in the Tottenham midfield. I have him down in 20th place of Prem midfielders. I can't think where you'd have got 3rd from. As for tackles, i have him ranked at 38th of Prem midfielders. Where did you get your stats from. I keep an eye on them every week and Zokora's have been this poor throughout the season.

As for Mido, I haven't tried to apply a scientific methid to anything. i've simply pointed out that the coach made the decision and it was a decison that seems to have paid off. You should be happy, but all you seem to do is complain. We finished 5th at the end of that season, by far our highest Prem finish. Mido was a major contributor to that. The most important thing is that Jol preffered Mido as he obviously felt he was better for the system he wanted to play. The fact we finshed 5th and greatly over achieved suggests that this system, which Mido was a key part of, was very successful. FFS, just be happy about it. It was a great season and for the first time in a long time we could be really proud of what we achieved. You just continually keep coming back to it, time and time again and it's so pointless.

The Zokora stats were absoloutely correct when compiled - SS checked them - I used the figures from the telegraph.


You keep choosing to completely ignore my point with Mido. We over achieved why ? because Arsenal were a better team than us ? why ? becasue they had the more skilfull players. If we'd of had the far more talented Kanoute wouldn't that have made us a better team. Could he have possibly added a couple of points to our tally with his far superior skillset. With him we might not have over achieved but simply achieved CL football.
You just keep hammering on that stats prove Jol made the correct decision. But they don't. The stats don't come close. They don't allow for the fact that Kanoute didn't get to play ina team with Davids, Salty, Lee, Jenas, Tainio, second season Carrick, etc. Kanoute was the type of player that could be the fulcrum of a team, look at the affect he had on Seville where he was absoloutely pivotal in their style and success (WHL qtr eg). Your stats are useless in this comparison because they do not compare like with like or even close.

And it is almost certainly the case that Jol didn't chose Mido over Knaoute for pure footballing reasons but because Kanoute had fucked him off. That is bad enough, if it was for footballing reasons then it is even worse. Unless you can tell me in what dimension of play Mido was better than Kanoute.

 

[DC_Boy]

HI BC - I think overall time has proved you right that Kanoute is a better player than Mido

but as you know I'm no big Fredi fan, while he was at Spurs - and a lot of West Ham fans have similar misgivings about him there (in fact some are rather rude about his attitude)- at Seville it seems Fredi blossomed like their oranges

I backed Jol's decision at the time - cos like him Pleat and Levy (from what I gather of their opinions) I was mightily **** off with Fredi for a variety of reasons.

The main ones being the quarter final fiasco v Pool reserves (tho I thought Jol was the bigger culprit and probably he overreacted v Fredi, cos he knew he'd *** up big-time that evening),

The adoption of Malian footballing nationality and the gaping hole that left us with that season, FK (like Mido after him) not being right after he came back from the ACN, and of course the famous missed tour of Mauritius (what a terrible place to be forced to go to play football

On the actual playing side during the good times of Mido (it was kinda like famine and feast with him, often at the same time he was better in the air then Fredi which was useful both offensively and defensively - he also tended to play as a striker where I wanted him not wander off down the wings (now we don't know if that was under instructions, but it used to irritate me big time)

Re stats, I'm a big fan, and like to read them and judge them against my experience and opinons

 

[joey55]

The Zokora stats were absoloutely correct when compiled - SS checked them - I used the figures from the telegraph.


You keep choosing to completely ignore my point with Mido. We over achieved why ? because Arsenal were a better team than us ? why ? becasue they had the more skilfull players. If we'd of had the far more talented Kanoute wouldn't that have made us a better team. Could he have possibly added a couple of points to our tally with his far superior skillset. With him we might not have over achieved but simply achieved CL football.
You just keep hammering on that stats prove Jol made the correct decision. But they don't. The stats don't come close. They don't allow for the fact that Kanoute didn't get to play ina team with Davids, Salty, Lee, Jenas, Tainio, second season Carrick, etc. Kanoute was the type of player that could be the fulcrum of a team, look at the affect he had on Seville where he was absoloutely pivotal in their style and success (WHL qtr eg). Your stats are useless in this comparison because they do not compare like with like or even close.

And it is almost certainly the case that Jol didn't chose Mido over Knaoute for pure footballing reasons but because Kanoute had fucked him off. That is bad enough, if it was for footballing reasons then it is even worse. Unless you can tell me in what dimension of play Mido was better than Kanoute.

The system Jol used that season was very defensive and we played with little width. Much of our attacking play centred a round playing the ball up to Mido, for him to win it and others play off him. Considering the talent pool we had at that time, it was a very well chosen and effective system. You can't compare Kanoute's success in Spain and how we played that season. Sevilla are all about attacking at pace with width. The likes of Adriano, Alves, Navas, Puerta and Capel are absolutely nothing like the players we had at Spurs at that time. Jol had a clear idea of the job he wanted Mido to do and he did it. Whether Kanoute could have done that role any better who knows. All the stats show is that it was a successful season for us and therefore the coach should be praised, yet all you ever seem to do is complain about him.

As for your Zokora stats, I just had a look at that thread and it’s unbelievable. That kind of thread is the exact reason why so many people reject the use of stats. You haven’t qualified anything you’ve said and you’ve missed of key players. It took me seconds notice the absence of JJ and the Hudd who have both had superior passing and tackling stats all season long. But more importantly you haven’t explained what you are trying to illustrate and how these stats help. You seem to be saying Zokora makes a certain amount of tackles and passes and therefore isn’t as bad as people make out. It’s just a poor use of statistics.

You say you haven’t included assists because he is primarily a DM, but you have also claimed on many other occasions that he isn’t a DM. This straight away suggests you are using the stats to manipulate rather than support what you really think about the player. If other DMs are creating chances then surely us having one that doesn’t gives us a disadvantage. You’ve also included some attacking players, which you note is to give perspective, but surely then you should also give perspective to how Zokora fairs in departments that are more vital to their games. Basically you’ve made an adhoc list of numbers and not really explained their relevance or what they mean. How do they illustrate that Zokora is doing the job he should be? Also, not only have you missed of the two Spurs players I mentioned, but also the likes of Scholes, Essien, Mascherano, Mullins, Mendes, Obi Mikel, Barry and Leira.

For the stats to be worth anything you have to say what you expect from that player and how they illustrate that he is doing that job. For example, I think in a 442 that if you are playing a DM with a box to box player, then he must protect the back 4, set the tempo for the side, keep the ball moving, break up opposition play and continually make himself an available outlet for the ball. All those stats show is that if you choose the right group of players to compare him to, Zokora makes a decent amount of tackles and passes. It doesn’t suggest whether he is making enough for a player in his position or tell us enough about how these stats are effecting the team.

Surely you must be able to see that it is threads like the one you started that are the exact reason some people don't like stats and just how hypocritical you were yesterday. At the very least you need to explain what it is you like about the player in question and how the stats you are provinding illustrate and support your point. You've been very selective with the stats and player you've chosen and not really told us how you see these stats as relevant.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Can you provide me with the link. I think you are being ridiculous. I included jsut about every one I could think of, I'm sure Scholes & Essien was included. If not there may have been a perfectly good reason. I think one criteria was that a certain amount of playing time was a minimum to justify inclusion ?? But either the way there were no lies in those figures and they were there for anyone to add players that I'd missed.

Mendes, Obi mikel, hardly regular starters are they. who is Leira ?

And there were enough quality midfielders in there to validate it. Far more valid than trying to use a ridiculous imaginary comparison of completely different circumstances to support your claim that Mido was better than kanoute. Mostly becasue tyou'd have to admit that Jol dropped a monumental bollock.

I have said that I don't think Zokora is good enough as a purely DM. But I have also said, and the stats were there to highlight that he does have redeeming features. Namely that he is extremely efficient with the ball and sees plenty of it.

It really isn't rocket science Joey, but you seem hell bent on making it so. Your reputation wouldn't be in tatters if you just admitted that kanoute is a better player than Mido and Zokora may not be the best in the world but he isn't that bad either.
Certainly Jol & Ramos seem to think so.

 

[Sbix]

Namely that he is extremely efficient with the ball and sees plenty of it.

This is so not true! He might have a lot of possession and successful passes, but that's not efficient for me, because his possession barely ever lead to chances or goals, which his number of assists show...

And the ultimate form of efficiency surely is to create chances and score goals???? Something he doesn't do.. I'm no statto really, but I'm sure other players who play the same role as Zokora almost all are better on that front!

 

[joey55]

Can you provide me with the link. I think you are being ridiculous. I included jsut about every one I could think of, I'm sure Scholes & Essien was included. If not there may have been a perfectly good reason. I think one criteria was that a certain amount of playing time was a minimum to justify inclusion ?? But either the way there were no lies in those figures and they were there for anyone to add players that I'd missed.

Mendes, Obi mikel, hardly regular starters are they. who is Leira ?

And there were enough quality midfielders in there to validate it. Far more valid than trying to use a ridiculous imaginary comparison of completely different circumstances to support your claim that Mido was better than kanoute. Mostly becasue tyou'd have to admit that Jol dropped a monumental bollock.

I have said that I don't think Zokora is good enough as a purely DM. But I have also said, and the stats were there to highlight that he does have redeeming features. Namely that he is extremely efficient with the ball and sees plenty of it.

It really isn't rocket science Joey, but you seem hell bent on making it so. Your reputation wouldn't be in tatters if you just admitted that kanoute is a better player than Mido and Zokora may not be the best in the world but he isn't that bad either.
Certainly Jol & Ramos seem to think so.

Why would my reputation be in tatters? And what reputation? I didn't want Mido to sign and I didn't want Kanoute to go. But I've acknowledged that Mido proved me wrong and had a great season. It seems to me Mido did a really effective job in the role Jol wanted to use him. He provided more assists than anyone else and only Keane scored more goals. His defending at set peices was also a real asset in a season in which we had our lowest ever goals against tally and 8 of Mido's 27 games resulted in clean sheets. Kanoute is a hugely talented player, but it never really happened for him in the Prem.

I'm not trying to turn anything you said about Zokora into rocket science, but simply asking that you use statsitics in a way that are useful. Is asking how the stats are relevant or what they reveal really over complicating things? Find a link to your own thread, I've already searched for it once today.

Edit : just checked your thread again I hadn't realised it was over such a short period time. It's totally worthless. I quickly checked Owen Hargreaves stats in the time and they were also better than Zokora's. I can't be bothered to go threw then, but I suspect if you check some of the players i've listed Zokoras stats will again look less impressive.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So less than a player that cost 18m ? What about all the players that are in there ? Gerrard, lampard, Mackalele, Carrick, Fabregas, Gilberto, Alonso, etc, etc. Please provide me with the stat for Hargreaves then so we can compare.

It was over the first couple of months of the season, which was when I compiled it. I didn't state it to be any different.

You are perfectly welcome to amend it.