AVB's 4-3-3 w/ Spurs: Tactical & Player Analysis & Discussion

[LukeBB]

Definitely agree, I love this style of pressing play we are now implementing and it forces the opposition into mistakes.

We've now got the players to do this as well, lots of pace and high stamina

I remember when we beat Inter 3-0 at home in the Europa League, we were on it that day! We chased after every ball for the whole 90 minutes! Each player was so determined to just crush Inter, I remember when one of Inter's players received the ball on the right at one point and the likes of Dembele, Sig and two others just set on him! I also remember when JD picked up the ball in our half after defending a corner and began to launch the counter attack and all 3 of Lennon, Bale and Walker had an unofficial 100m Sprint race between em to catch up to Defoe (Bale on!)

This is when we began to see the level of intensity AVB wants his teams to play at! To not let them have the ball, to dominate play and to win every ball and hassle every opponent!

 

[SonicSarr]

I can't wait to see how we line up. We have a really powerful and skillful bunch of players ideally suited to the passing and pressing game with high-tempo. We were good last season but this season it won't just be a case of more basic players (e.g. Parker) just trying to play safe and feeding the more creative, it is a fully-laden technically good team which oozes quality on the ball combined with pace and strength, I can see us annihilating a few teams this season.

The only area we maybe lack a bit is in the 'magician' department but this system perhaps does not need that. We will see.

With possibly more players coming in I am probably the most optimistic I've been going into a season for as long as I can remember. We're gonna tear this shit up! I really think we can challenge for the title with Man City and Chelscum.

I also saw a really in depth article about AVB's tactical philosophy a while back which explained the 'vertical' football idea. I'll see if I can find it again. Great post though Luke!!

 

[dudu]

This thread is for all those wondering how Spurs might play this season and as to how players like Bale, Sig, Soldado, Paulinho, Holtby etc.......

Good first post mate. Read quite a few things with a similar analysis and you cant argue that AVB is heading in this direction.

Do youknow anything about his secondary tactics? what does he do when this system is being countered by the opponents?

 

[bigpalacios]

And where does Carlton cole fit into all this????

We need to be playing to his strengths as he is an integral part of our team now

 

[LukeBB]

I can't wait to see how we line up. We have a really powerful and skillful bunch of players ideally suited to the passing and pressing game with high-tempo. We were good last season but this season it won't just be a case of more basic players (e.g. Parker) just trying to play safe and feeding the more creative, it is a fully-laden technically good team which oozes quality on the ball combined with pace and strength, I can see us annihilating a few teams this season.

The only area we maybe lack a bit is in the 'magician' department but this system perhaps does not need that. We will see.

With possibly more players coming in I am probably the most optimistic I've been going into a season for as long as I can remember. We're gonna tear this shit up! I really think we can challenge for the title with Man City and Chelscum.

I also saw a really in depth article about AVB's tactical philosophy a while back which explained the 'vertical' football idea. I'll see if I can find it again. Great post though Luke!!

I agree it would be good to have a "magician" on the same level as VDV or Modric in the team but I'm sure that Holtby can develop into an excellent creative midfielder, it's a shame we never got to see it from him last season as he was adjusting ot his new team mates as well as coming off the bench and being shoved out wide etc

However, AVB has built a team "not to pick locks but to smash down doors!" it's hard to see any side resisitng the unrelenting force of Paulinho, Dembele, Chadli, Bale & Soldado. Barca are arguably the most creative side in the world and when Chelsea went 10 at the back Barca just couldn't break em down! But with the long shots of Bale and the bulldozing runs of Dembele and Paulinho I think we'll do better at breaking down defensive teams.

 

[shelfstandspur]

Great thread, this is the sort of analysis that you would hope to see on MOTD and the like.
Apart from the reduced number of British players I have been very impressed by this TW and can see how it is working towards a squad that can make the 433 system work.
The squad we are building reminds me of the old German national teams where you have a group of players who are technically gifted and have good football brains so that when injuries hit or the bench is used later in the game you don't lose the shape and purpose that the first 11 offers.
This is something we have suffered from for a while where if we lose players or make changes we often lost momentum as the quality and consistantcy wasn't there. Admittedly some of this was down to Harry's lack of tactical nous.
I am looking forward to seeing this work for Spurs; especially if the Welsh bundle of hay is still with us!

 

[Pedro]

Looking at who,we have bought recently and the type of players out of favour / on their way out it seems that AVB wants strong, physical and mobile players that also have good technical skill,and positional sense.

Players that don't fit would be hudd (lack of mobility), Parker (lack of technical ability and positional sense), and Dawson (lack of mobility). I would also include Carroll to the list unfortunately due to his lack of physical presence, which can also be said to an extent with sig. Space can be found in the team for players who don't have all the attributes, but we are talking about what AVB ideally wants. Dawson is still worth keeping for his leadership and warrior like character, and Carroll for his technical ability. Hudd and Parker are likely to be off IMO. Livermore actually has good mobility and strength but unfortunately lacks the technical ability to make it in midfield - however could do well if converted to a CB (btw I watched a preseason game vs Bournemouth a few years ago where Livermore was playing at CB and looked class - best player on the pitch that day).

For me our main weakness in the first 11 is who plays the playmaker role. On paper you would want dembele, paulinho and Sandro in the team, however are any of them a serious and consistent goal threat? Will they spray passes about and provide killer through balls? I'm not sure. Holtby has the AVB attributes and if he gets himself into some form he could play here, maybe Siggy if he can settle and toughen up a bit. Ideally I would like to see another player bought for the role.

Other squad purchases are more about depth, with the possible exception of LB where we could perhaps do with an upgrade. A CB is a massive priority, and potentially DM too. Capoue looks like a great player that fits the AVB mold perfectly, again another mobile, strong player with good technical ability and positional play.

 

[SonicSarr]

I can't wait to see how we line up. We have a really powerful and skillful bunch of players ideally suited to the passing and pressing game with high-tempo. We were good last season but this season it won't just be a case of more basic players (e.g. Parker) just trying to play safe and feeding the more creative, it is a fully-laden technically good team which oozes quality on the ball combined with pace and strength, I can see us annihilating a few teams this season.

The only area we maybe lack a bit is in the 'magician' department but this system perhaps does not need that. We will see.

With possibly more players coming in I am probably the most optimistic I've been going into a season for as long as I can remember. We're gonna tear this shit up! I really think we can challenge for the title with Man City and Chelscum.

I also saw a really in depth article about AVB's tactical philosophy a while back which explained the 'vertical' football idea. I'll see if I can find it again. Great post though Luke!!

Not the article referred to in the post above (which was properly scientific) but this is a decent one...

http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/1657?cc=5739

 

[LukeBB]

Good first post mate. Read quite a few things with a similar analysis and you cant argue that AVB is heading in this direction.

Do youknow anything about his secondary tactics? what does he do when this system is being countered by the opponents?

tbh AVB relies on different types of players rather than a change of tactic when his tactic is being countered. This is why opposition scouting and tactical analysis is so important to AVB so before a game he can pin-point all the other teams weaknesses and select the team otherwise.

That's why having a squad of versatile players is so important to AVB so he can use different types of players under different circumstances, for example (this probably isn't what AVB would do, just trying to come up with an example ) say we're playing Stoke who don't have the quickest of a midfield or defense, we can deploy the pacy and powerful Chadli in the CM playmaker's role and then add further pace by placing Lennon on the LW. Make sense? He relies on having a versatile squad rather than using different tactics.

Of course if he did change tactics we've obviously seen him use 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 in the past

 

[Outnumbered]

Outstanding post. Take a bow Luke, take a bow

 

[SonicSarr]

I agree it would be good to have a "magician" on the same level as VDV or Modric in the team but I'm sure that Holtby can develop into an excellent creative midfielder, it's a shame we never got to see it from him last season as he was adjusting ot his new team mates as well as coming off the bench and being shoved out wide etc

However, AVB has built a team "not to pick locks but to smash down doors!" it's hard to see any side resisitng the unrelenting force of Paulinho, Dembele, Chadli, Bale & Soldado. Barca are arguably the most creative side in the world and when Chelsea went 10 at the back Barca just couldn't break em down! But with the long shots of Bale and the bulldozing runs of Dembele and Paulinho I think we'll do better at breaking down defensive teams.

Totally agree with the smash down doors comment which is perhaps what I alluded to when saying this system may not need a magician. Also agree that of the current players Holtby is best suited but I would dearly love Carroll to develop into that player.

Do you think AVB sees Townsend as fitting this system. I'd say he has the necessary attributes especially penetration and it will be interesting to see if or how AVB uses him this season.

 

[LukeBB]

Looking at who,we have bought recently and the type of players out of favour / on their way out it seems that AVB wants strong, physical and mobile players that also have good technical skill,and positional sense.

Players that don't fit would be hudd (lack of mobility), Parker (lack of technical ability and positional sense), and Dawson (lack of mobility). I would also include Carroll to the list unfortunately due to his lack of physical presence, which can also be said to an extent with sig. Space can be found in the team for players who don't have all the attributes, but we are talking about what AVB ideally wants. Dawson is still worth keeping for his leadership and warrior like character, and Carroll for his technical ability. Hudd and Parker are likely to be off IMO. Livermore actually has good mobility and strength but unfortunately lacks the technical ability to make it in midfield - however could do well if converted to a CB (btw I watched a preseason game vs Bournemouth a few years ago where Livermore was playing at CB and looked class - best player on the pitch that day).

For me our main weakness in the first 11 is who plays the playmaker role. On paper you would want dembele, paulinho and Sandro in the team, however are any of them a serious and consistent goal threat? Will they spray passes about and provide killer through balls? I'm not sure. Holtby has the AVB attributes and if he gets himself into some form he could play here, maybe Siggy if he can settle and toughen up a bit. Ideally I would like to see another player bought for the role.

Other squad purchases are more about depth, with the possible exception of LB where we could perhaps do with an upgrade. A CB is a massive priority, and potentially DM too. Capoue looks like a great player that fits the AVB mold perfectly, again another mobile, strong player with good technical ability and positional play.

I agree but I think people underestimate the creative potential of Dembele, they underestimate how powerful he can be charging forward skipping past midfielder etc and from there he can play a killer ball etc.

 

[SamR]

Yeah, what AVB is doing now is what DL wanted Juande Ramos to do when he took over, to turn Spurs into a clever, tactically astute side who could dismantle opponents with aggressive, pre-planned play. Unfortunately having never broke into the Champions League before Ramos's arrival we didn't have the players to match his plans for the side, he was forced to work with a midfield of Huddlestone, Jenas etc These players weren't used to the high level of focus on tactics and results showed, they couldn't grasp what Ramos was demanding of them, so Levy had to bring in Redknapp, whose more laid-back, motivational coaching methods suited the type of players we had.

Once we got CL we could attract the technically gifted and technically capable player of VDV, who could help get the best out of players at the club like Modric, Bale and Lennon. Once we started playing attractive football, more players became willing to join Spurs even though we still didn't quite make CL. Once we got the right players, Redknapp's coaching methods showed cracks, he would play simple formations like 4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1 where we could get dominated by a 3 man midfield, Redknapp became outdone by tactically smart coaches like Mancini, Moyes, Ferguson etc It never helped he played the same team over and over again (fatiguing the players) as well as the fact he rarely signed youth players always calling on older, more experienced players with no sell on value (levy no likey) like Parker, Saha, Nelson etc

Now that we had the pulling power and belief of a title-challenging squad, Levy saw this as an opportunity to try again in turning Spurs into a tactically powerful side with a coach who would get the best out of players, who looked to build teams for the future, who looked to win every competition they were in, whose tactical prowess would give Spurs a fighting chance against teams like Man U, Man City, Chelsea and other European sides, that man Levy envisioned was AVB!

Now that AVB is being backed financially to build a squad of his players we are finally starting to see the same vision Levy had, to turn the club's squad into a European force, to turn the club's structure into that similar to the dominant forces of football like Barca, a man who's experiences in Portugal and England made him a stronger character who idolised youth academy's of those of Sporting Lisbon and Barca, who was determined to prove himself that given time he could show the world what he and his squads were capable of, and right now we are seeing this project grow wings!

Great posting Luke. I accidently pressed dislike on my phone but I'm in agreement with what you say. AVB is more important to us than any of the players going forward and it is him we need to tie down on a long contract!

 

[Pedro]

I agree it would be good to have a "magician" on the same level as VDV or Modric in the team but I'm sure that Holtby can develop into an excellent creative midfielder, it's a shame we never got to see it from him last season as he was adjusting ot his new team mates as well as coming off the bench and being shoved out wide etc

However, AVB has built a team "not to pick locks but to smash down doors!" it's hard to see any side resisitng the unrelenting force of Paulinho, Dembele, Chadli, Bale & Soldado. Barca are arguably the most creative side in the world and when Chelsea went 10 at the back Barca just couldn't break em down! But with the long shots of Bale and the bulldozing runs of Dembele and Paulinho I think we'll do better at breaking down defensive teams.

When holtby first arrived he looked very good when coming on as a sub, his form just seemed to drop when starting matches. He does have that aura of something special about him, I just hope he can develop quickly and cement a place in the team. I also rate Siggy very highly, but again, you can see he has a lot of talent, but it isn't quite happening for him yet. This is such a vital position for our team my main concern is whether one of these lads will step up their game early in the season. Or will we shoehorn a player out of position like paulinho/dembele/chadli?

 

[LukeBB]

Totally agree with the smash down doors comment which is perhaps what I alluded to when saying this system may not need a magician. Also agree that of the current players Holtby is best suited but I would dearly love Carroll to develop into that player.

Do you think AVB sees Townsend as fitting this system. I'd say he has the necessary attributes especially penetration and it will be interesting to see if or how AVB uses him this season.

From what I've seen in pre-season and last season AVB is definitely interested in using Townsend! Bar Bale. Townsend is the next best thing for the RW role, a direct-running, tricky and pacy winger who runs at the defense always looking at goal and with a classy left foot on him, just the type of winger AVB likes, and beside I'm sure he wants to keep Townsend around as cover for the LW as well etc

 

[dirtydave]

Good post, please ignore the wtf rating, my sausage fingers slipped on iPhone.

have altered the rating

 

[Pedro]

I agree but I think people underestimate the creative potential of Dembele, they underestimate how powerful he can be charging forward skipping past midfielder etc and from there he can play a killer ball etc.

Maybe, I personally prefer him in the deeper role. Unfortunately his goal threat is minimal, and whilst having a good passing range he is much better at running with the ball from deep and releasing near the edge of the area. Perfect for the box to box role, like what I have seen from paulinho.

 

[SonicSarr]

Maybe, I personally prefer him in the deeper role. Unfortunately his goal threat is minimal, and whilst having a good passing range he is much better at running with the ball from deep and releasing near the edge of the area. Perfect for the box to box role, like what I have seen from paulinho.

I just love the way he glides past players when he gets to open his stride a bit. I agree that side of his game is a bit restricted when played further forward as the space is more limited.

 

[sloth]

I've seen him play many times but never at CB. I think he has it within his scope and might even be a revelation as a CB , but without ever seeing him there I couldn't say for sure. I think if he can adjust to the different pace of the EPL, he would make a really good central CM in a 433 or one of a pair in a 4231.

Are you thinking as an alternative to Sandro?

 

[dudu]

tbh AVB relies on different types of players rather than a change of tactic when his tactic is being countered. This is why opposition scouting and tactical analysis is so important to AVB so before a game he can pin-point all the other teams weaknesses and select the team otherwise.

That's why having a squad of versatile players is so important to AVB so he can use different types of players under different circumstances, for example (this probably isn't what AVB would do, just trying to come up with an example ) say we're playing Stoke who don't have the quickest of a midfield or defense, we can deploy the pacy and powerful Chadli in the CM playmaker's role and then add further pace by placing Lennon on the LW. Make sense? He relies on having a versatile squad rather than using different tactics.

Of course if he did change tactics we've obviously seen him use 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 in the past

Completely makes sense to me.. Just saying that this isnt the Portuguese league and maybe he is going to have to commit to a secondary or tertiary tactic to counter teams trying to counter us. He as a manager is still very young and this is only his 3rd real test at a full time job. I love the guy and never doubted him for a second, i just think he will have to learn how to successfully change formations as well as players over the course of the season. I cant imagine him just playing one formation for the rest of his managerial career.

that being said, i could be wrong and her may very well change the whole face of football for years to come and make us world beaters at the same time