Ex Aston Villa player Dalian Atkinson dies after being tasered by Police

[Mullers]

Am sure the left/pc brigade will call it a racist killing etc but police do not use these weapons for fun, there are very strict guidelines for their use so I am sure Atkinson was not calmly sitting in his dads house sipping tea, he must have been acting aggressively/violently for police to be called in first place

We will see in time whether racism could have had anything to do with this, but it's interesting to me that you and one or two others made this immediate link to his colour.
The left always get tagged as being racism activists, aren't many on the right against racism as well? I think they are .

 

[Mullers]

I did explain both asp and spray in my post. We're pretty lean generally considering we don't use guns or water cannons even though the latter would've been perfect for the riots. Before tasers, basically police officers and members of the public were killed or seriously injured more often.

You can find fault in anything. 'Pepper balls' could cause blindness if shot in someone's eye. Bean bags are just ridiculous. Basically anything like that could and probably will injure because that's what they're made for. It's a weapon and weapons are designed to injure. There has to be a weapon used that doesn't always kill but does stop the ultra violent suspect from harming. Asp, spray etc does the job generally, which is why you hardly hear of anything like this, but for the more violent uncontrollable suspects, they won't work. It needs more.

Those weapons will injure and getting a severe injury is no fun but it's a lot better than death and there seems to be a bigger chance of that with Tasering.

I don't know if this happens already but there should be an ambulance, doctors on the scene, so they can give medical attention just in case.

 

[UncleBuck]

Those weapons will injure and getting a severe injury is no fun but it's a lot better than death and there seems to be a bigger chance of that with Tasering.

I don't know if this happens already but there should be an ambulance, doctors on the scene, so they can give medical attention just in case.

And politely ask the person who is about to be tasered to keep still whilst the police wait half an hour for an ambulance? I can see that working.....

 

[bomberH]

Those weapons will injure and getting a severe injury is no fun but it's a lot better than death and there seems to be a bigger chance of that with Tasering.

I don't know if this happens already but there should be an ambulance, doctors on the scene, so they can give medical attention just in case.

Genuinely mean no offence but this is exactly the type of reaction that people who aren't familiar with the reality of it all have. It's almost impossible at times to get an ambulance for a heart attack let alone to time one to show up to one of these incidents. In essence, obviously it's a great idea but in reality, police would have to attend and assess the situation before calling an ambulance unnecessarily. The call may initially come out as a domestic, it's only when police get there that the guy/girl might go nuts with a knife etc. If the call is about a maniac with a machete assaulting people, then an ambulance would be called at the same time as the police are, so they do usually turn up together.

Often an ambulance will attend a scene because they've been called by someone who's been assaulted by their other half, and they wait outside for police to attend as they don't wanna go in there themselves. Police can't do that the other way around, they can't wait for an ambulance before they deal with a violent person. They have to go straight in there and deal with the situation. If they haven't got a taser but need one, they'd call up for more officers first and the control room would probably call for an ambulance after, but as I said, they can't just sit outside and wait for the ambulance to turn up. They need to deal with it there and then.

The weapons police have are guns, tasers, spray, asps/batons, cuffs. You want something in between a taser and a spray. I disagree. As I mentioned earlier, the last 3 won't assist with someone muscular and high or with mental health issues, if his/her intent was to cause total mayhem. It has to be something that you can 'shoot' from a distance that doesn't kill. Tasers here have killed 10 people in 10 years (According to the guardian). If this is the case, it's unfortunate but American police guns probably kill that many in a day. And remember tasers aren't designed to kill. They do sometimes depending on the person, obviously, but I honestly can't think of another option. I've witnessed on genuine countless occasions when CS spray has either had no affect, has caused mayhem amongst innocent members of the public when the wind blows it towards them, has caused danger towards police when one officer sprays the suspect but the rest of the canister spray hits their colleagues meaning pretty much everyone there is rendered useless. It can also do the job pretty well too. But my point is that you absolutely cannot rely on spray to do the job in certain circumstances, especially outside.

 

[TheHoddleWaddle]

There have been a number of incidents with them. They clearly aren't safe to use on a random person without knowing their medical history.

"I say there old bean, would you mind awfully desisting in in your unruly behaviour, put the knife down and be dreadfully nice, whilst we discuss your medical history? There's a good fellow".

Tazer is also responsible for saving lives. Firearms officers have deployed it instead of pulling the trigger. Worth considering.

Use of force will always have awful consequences from time to time. Even pushing someone could (and has) killed someone.

Trust me, someone dying on a police officer after any use of force or even post police contact, is a nightmare no single serving copper would ever wish on their worst enemy.

 

[Tucker]

"I say there old bean, would you mind awfully desisting in in your unruly behaviour, put the knife down and be dreadfully nice, whilst we discuss your medical history? There's a good fellow".

Tazer is also responsible for saving lives. Firearms officers have deployed it instead of pulling the trigger. Worth considering.

Use of force will always have awful consequences from time to time. Even pushing someone could (and has) killed someone.

Trust me, someone dying on a police officer after any use of force or even post police contact, is a nightmare no single serving copper would ever wish on their worst enemy.

The same argument could be made for shooting them in the leg with a hand gun. There are mounting incidents with Tasers, police managed to do their jobs without them for over one hundred years.

We don't know the details of this case fully. But by the sounds of it, Atkinson wasn't posing a threat to others, and was kicked while on the floor. The police had him out numbered, he didn't have a weapon, so why taze him and then kick the shit out of him?

It's surprisingly easy to restrain someone when you have them outnumbered. If you have the relevant training that is.

 

[TheHoddleWaddle]

The same argument could be made for shooting them in the leg with a hand gun. There are mounting incidents with Tasers, police managed to do their jobs without them for over one hundred years.

We don't know the details of this case fully. But by the sounds of it, Atkinson wasn't posing a threat to others, and was kicked while on the floor. The police had him out numbered, he didn't have a weapon, so why taze him and then kick the shit out of him?

It's surprisingly easy to restrain someone when you have them outnumbered. If you have the relevant training that is.

I don't know a thing about the circumstamces of this. Until it's all clarified I'll refrain. But overall, the wider argument? If you'll excuse my being blunt, no, it isn't easy to restrain someone. Even if they are out numbered. It's a bloody nightmare! Ask @bomberH any serving officer will tell you the same. Even skinny teenagers are hard work.

Bundles on the floor, which is where most end up, cause all sorts of issues. Positional asphyxia for one. A few deaths from that.

Have a look at issues such as excited delerium. Mental health violence etc. All common and impossible to get right issues.

 

[bomberH]

The same argument could be made for shooting them in the leg with a hand gun. There are mounting incidents with Tasers, police managed to do their jobs without them for over one hundred years.

We don't know the details of this case fully. But by the sounds of it, Atkinson wasn't posing a threat to others, and was kicked while on the floor. The police had him out numbered, he didn't have a weapon, so why taze him and then kick the shit out of him?

It's surprisingly easy to restrain someone when you have them outnumbered. If you have the relevant training that is.

I think I'm right in saying armed officers are trained to shoot to kill. Imagine a scenario where a man is holding a gun to someone and an officer shoots them in the leg or arm. As the suspect falls to the ground, he would still be very able to shoot that person next to him and the police would be criticised for not killing him. They have to protect themselves too, so the same applies if he reaches for his pocket whilst being told to show his hands. A shot in the leg may not be enough to stop him grabbing something from his coat and kill a cop.

Police didn't manage particularly well without them for 100 years. Before tasers, many more police officers and members of the public were seriously injured in situations that would've been avoidable if a taser (or gun) was present.

I agree that the details of this particular case don't sound promising so far, but some witnesses have their own agenda against police and some have the 'victim' at heart and don't want to bad mouth them. Duggan was painted almost as an angel by his family and friends. If what the witness said about kicking etc is correct and there was no fighting back by Atkinson, then that officer should be sacked and taken to court. But from experience, there are many (and I mean many) a case of 'selective' witnessing. As an aside, It's amazing how many witness accounts change once you tell someone you have video footage of something and you're going to view it later on...

Re your last paragraph, thehoddlewaddle touched on it too but believe me, restraining is just not easy no matter how many officers there are. If someone doesn't wanna be nicked they will fight like madmen to avoid it. If that person is on drugs or drunk or is 18 stone of muscle, it's an absolute nightmare no matter how much training you've had. The police haven't got the same mentality as the person they're restraining. Their mentality is 'I will fuck up anyone who gets in my way whatever happens'. Police mentality is 'restrain the guy so he can't hurt us/the public'.

I've been to a pub where a guy was nicked and it took 12 TSG officers to nick him. I kid you not, there were 6 either side of him all holding on to his arms and side. They couldn't cuff him because his wrists were too big. When they thought they had him, he just lifted both his arms in the air and 12 officers went flying. It was like a scene out of a comedy film. Now this doesn't happen every day but similar incidents do, all the time. Restraining someone who really doesn't wanna be restrained is one of the hardest parts of the job.

 

[KentuckyYid]

I think I'm right in saying armed officers are trained to shoot to kill. Imagine a scenario where a man is holding a gun to someone and an officer shoots them in the leg or arm. As the suspect falls to the ground, he would still be very able to shoot that person next to him and the police would be criticised for not killing him. They have to protect themselves too, so the same applies if he reaches for his pocket whilst being told to show his hands. A shot in the leg may not be enough to stop him grabbing something from his coat and kill a cop.

Plus, it's a lot easier to shoot to kill due to the bigger target of a chest, than it is to aim for a leg etc. Hitting moving targets are hard enough as it is, without adding restrictions on only shooting in the arm or leg.

 

[Drexl]

We will see in time whether racism could have had anything to do with this, but it's interesting to me that you and one or two others made this immediate link to his colour.
The left always get tagged as being racism activists, aren't many on the right against racism as well? I think they are .

It took place in the West Midlands, every other person up there is black, hell the place is even nicknamed the black country by a lot of people, if these police were racist i am sure they have had plenty of other opportunities to attack black people, it is highly unlikely

There should be an enquiry, there will be, but the police are getting a hammering online based on the words of one 'witness' who could well be unreliable

Indeed racism is abhorrent even to right wingers but the left wing SJW's on social media love to play the race card at every opportunity

 

[Mr.D]

It took place in the West Midlands, every other person up there is black, hell the place is even nicknamed the black country by a lot of people, if these police were racist i am sure they have had plenty of other opportunities to attack black people, it is highly unlikely

There should be an enquiry, there will be, but the police are getting a hammering online based on the words of one 'witness' who could well be unreliable

Indeed racism is abhorrent even to right wingers but the left wing SJW's on social media love to play the race card at every opportunity

I'm pretty sure that it was called that before the Windrush sailed, ffs.

 

[tony_parkes]

It took place in the West Midlands, every other person up there is black, hell the place is even nicknamed the black country by a lot of people, if these police were racist i am sure they have had plenty of other opportunities to attack black people, it is highly unlikely

There should be an enquiry, there will be, but the police are getting a hammering online based on the words of one 'witness' who could well be unreliable

Indeed racism is abhorrent even to right wingers but the left wing SJW's on social media love to play the race card at every opportunity

It's called the Black Country due to the amount of smoke and soot from heavy industry, not because every other person is black.

It's been called that since the industrial revolution, long before significant immigration.

 

[KentuckyYid]

It took place in the West Midlands, every other person up there is black, hell the place is even nicknamed the black country by a lot of people, if these police were racist i am sure they have had plenty of other opportunities to attack black people, it is highly unlikely

There should be an enquiry, there will be, but the police are getting a hammering online based on the words of one 'witness' who could well be unreliable

Indeed racism is abhorrent even to right wingers but the left wing SJW's on social media love to play the race card at every opportunity

I suppose that has nothing to do with the air pollution during the industrial revolution

 

[Drexl]

I had no idea

Heard the name mentioned a few times by people but just assumed it was tongue in cheek reference to the population there

 

[HailKingLevy]

Drexl is funny

 

[Xeeleeyid]

I was working under the assumption the natural thing to do would be for the police to restrain him once he had been tasered. I've seen taser demonstrations, and no matter who, the target goes down and stays down for more than long enough to be restrained.

I'm going out of my way not to make any impact judgements - don't know the reliability of witness, but don't want to doubt her; neither blaming nor justifying police use of taser. But the truth is, if they tasered him more than once they must have either tasered him after he was down and incapacitated, or they waited until the effects of the taser had worn off and then tasered him again. In which case, they had more than enough time to restrain him. Isn't that normal procedure? Surely it's not normal procedure to taser someone, wait until it has worn off and see if they need another tasering or two dependent on how cooperative they are.

And that is if he was only tasered once more - what justification could there be for tasering someone, waiting until recovered to see if calmed, tasering again if not, rinse, repeat, rinse.

Even one more shot just seems irresponsible, at best, and gratuitous at worst. Not saying it definitively was, because I wasn't there, just how it seems.

Quite common ParticulArly in large males under the influence of drugs or alcohol to not go down after a taser strike and can sometimes take up to seven discharges to be subdued

 

[Mullers]

It took place in the West Midlands, every other person up there is black, hell the place is even nicknamed the black country by a lot of people, if these police were racist i am sure they have had plenty of other opportunities to attack black people, it is highly unlikely

There should be an enquiry, there will be, but the police are getting a hammering online based on the words of one 'witness' who could well be unreliable

Indeed racism is abhorrent even to right wingers but the left wing SJW's on social media love to play the race card at every opportunity

Her account of Dalian being kicked and tasered on the ground is very disturbing and shouldn't be just dismissed because of how she looks or social status.However I do dislike witnesses telling the media what they saw before any investigation and trial has taken place.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Several newspapers are saying similar, this is from the Mirror.


The ex-Aston Villa and Sheffield Wednesday player was described as in a 'manic state' by his brother

Former Premier League star Dalian Atkinson throttled his father and said he was going to kill him before he was tasered to death by police, it is claimed.

The ex-Aston Villa and Sheffield Wednesday player was described as in a "manic state" by his brother.

The 48-year-old died 90 minutes after he was hit by the stun gun in the street where he grew up in the Trench area of Telford, Shropshire, in the early hours of Monday morning.

Mr Atkinson's brother, Kenroy, 53, told The Sun the ex-Premier League star had undergone dialysis for kidney failure and was "not in his right mind".

He said his brother had attacked their 85-year-old father, Ernest, at his home on Monday before police were called to the scene.

"My brother had lost it. He was in a manic state and depressed - out of his mind and ranting.

"He had a tube in his shoulder for the dialysis and he had ripped it out and was covered in blood," he told the newspaper.

"He got Dad by the throat and said he was going to kill him. He told Dad he had already killed me, our brother Paul and sister Elaine and he had come for him.

"He was not in his right mind.

"We are all devastated. Our family is heartbroken."

According to The Sun when the first Taser shot of 50,000 volts did not stop Atkinson he shouted: “It’s not working.”

It was when a second Taser also failed Ernest, 85, said his son then yelled: “I am the Messiah.”

A third Taser round left him unconscious in the middle of the road outside the house.

He was rushed to hospital where he later died.

 

[luRRka]

The same argument could be made for shooting them in the leg with a hand gun. There are mounting incidents with Tasers, police managed to do their jobs without them for over one hundred years.

We don't know the details of this case fully. But by the sounds of it, Atkinson wasn't posing a threat to others, and was kicked while on the floor. The police had him out numbered, he didn't have a weapon, so why taze him and then kick the shit out of him?

It's surprisingly easy to restrain someone when you have them outnumbered. If you have the relevant training that is.

I see you've never tried to restrain someone who doesn't want to be nicked if you think it's easy to restrain them when you outnumber them. Also, UK police don't shoot people in the legs

 

[Mullers]

Going by those reports it looks like he had psychosis, left untreated the person could be very dangerous.