Financials 17/18

[Lighty64]

Are you seriously suggesting that our failure to buy players is because we couldn't attract the players we wanted and not because we weren't willing to pay the transfer fees (I won't even discuss wages because I don't think we ever get there) ?

I'm really sorry but I don't think you understand financial statements and like others are conflating profit with cashflow.

Finally your argument on a transfer market gone crazy has been one that has been advocated consistently for the last 10 years only to see prices rise continuously. Dare I say it but the reason we have flops sitting on the bench lies at the feet of Levy 1) for buying second rate in the first place and b) for thinking he is too clever by half when it comes to moving on players.

other than the Grealish signing, what other players do you know we never offered the price? that was the only transfer that was really in the open, and please tell me 1 fan that believes we should of offered what they where asking for by the end of the window.

Levy won't change his way of paying, so offered Villa less but in a bigger 1 off. if Villa hadn't been taken over especially by 2 Gooner fans, we might of got Grealish.

hopefully one day we will be in a position where 1 day we won't have to structure the payments, and hopefully 1 day the agents fees won't kick most deals into touch. if a player is worth 49m (de Ligt) why then pay £70m because of a greedy bastard like Raiola.

 

[Lighty64]

No we aren't, you are confusing cashflow and profit. I don't want to enter into an accounting lecture but you can't "spend" profit, you can increase expense but that isn't something you do by investing in a fixed asset, which is what the stadium is.

If your point is that we are using all our operating cashflow to invest in property assets rather than transfers or wages then yes I agree and it is my main point, as a strategy it is utterly wrong. As a fan I'd like a greater balance in using our resources. As a shareholder I want the same, I don't believe that the club's value is maximised by starving the playing side of the business of adequate resources to compete.

so what money should we use to build the Stadium?

 

[yankspurs]

so what money should we use to build the Stadium?

We are using the banks money to build the stadium. Why do you think the loan facility balooned to ~£640m, we've used £366m of it through June, and are reporting record profits?

 

[Lighty64]

We are using the banks money to build the stadium. Why do you think the loan facility balooned to ~£640m, we've used £366m of it through June, and are reporting record profits?

oh so the money we have taken over the 17 years ENIC have been here has gone in their back pockets after player and staff wages.

if that is the debt we have gained through the build of the stadium, the rest of the NPD won't be completed as ENIC are not going to have an even bigger debt hanging over them without a guaranteed buyer

 

[Lilbaz]

Well, we’re actually spending the banks money on the stadium(which will be paid back by the stadiums added revenue). Any money the club generates over its operating expenses is not going toward the stadium at the moment. The stadium loan will become part of the expenses when complete(and will also become part of revenue) but right now it is a side project.

The last financials showed we've spent £496m on the stadium and training ground already. We are paying for the stadium and have been for years.

 

[Lighty64]

The last financials showed we've spent £496m on the stadium and training ground already. We are paying for the stadium and have been for years.

pointless trying to explain mate, we never signed no one this season, won't ever buy the moaners dream players, haven't over spent especially since we announced and got permission to build it, and we have a massive loan thanks to Brexit.

what we should of done to become successful is stay at the old lane, pay top wages, buy top players just to give us hope of a Caraboa Cup win.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

other than the Grealish signing, what other players do you know we never offered the price? that was the only transfer that was really in the open, and please tell me 1 fan that believes we should of offered what they where asking for by the end of the window.

Levy won't change his way of paying, so offered Villa less but in a bigger 1 off. if Villa hadn't been taken over especially by 2 Gooner fans, we might of got Grealish.

hopefully one day we will be in a position where 1 day we won't have to structure the payments, and hopefully 1 day the agents fees won't kick most deals into touch. if a player is worth 49m (de Ligt) why then pay £70m because of a greedy bastard like Raiola.

Grealish was a transfer that is emblematic of ENIC, we weren’t interested in him because he was top drawer, we were interested because maybe he was super cheap, what a pathetic way to acquire players and dare I suggest again that this modus operandi is why we we have dross we can’t shift. I can’t point to any other players we offered money for but either 1) we didn’t bid for anyone, pathetic or 2) as the press have speculated we bid for both Ndombele and De Jong but didn’t bid high enough, only to now see their prices rise yet further.

I really think you are arguing the indefensible.

 

[Lighty64]

Grealish was a transfer that is emblematic of ENIC, we weren’t interested in him because he was top drawer, we were interested because maybe he was super cheap, what a pathetic way to acquire players and dare I suggest again that this modus operandi is why we we have dross we can’t shift. I can’t point to any other players we offered money for but either 1) we didn’t bid for anyone, pathetic or 2) as the press have speculated we bid for both Ndombele and De Jong but didn’t bid high enough, only to now see their prices rise yet further.

I really think you are arguing the indefensible.

I'm not arguing at all, I just don't agree with your anger. you don't believe we should put bricks and mortar before the team, I don't believe if we had stayed in the old stadium we would ever catch up with anyone around us in any area whether that be 1st team or youth. your argument is because we have closed it over the last season (due to Wembley and the Stadium build), my view is we are competing with teams that have either built their success and financial power over 20 odd years.

your not happy we never spent 50m on a player that had only just been signed for £8, which isn't that good a business move if he turned out to be the next Stamboli. we never bid for De Jong, we tried for de Ligt.

we will never agree you hate ENIC for not making us great now and the prices of the ST, I think what ENIC have done will set us up for a very bright future

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

I'm not arguing at all, I just don't agree with your anger. you don't believe we should put bricks and mortar before the team, I don't believe if we had stayed in the old stadium we would ever catch up with anyone around us in any area whether that be 1st team or youth. your argument is because we have closed it over the last season (due to Wembley and the Stadium build), my view is we are competing with teams that have either built their success and financial power over 20 odd years.

your not happy we never spent 50m on a player that had only just been signed for £8, which isn't that good a business move if he turned out to be the next Stamboli. we never bid for De Jong, we tried for de Ligt.

we will never agree you hate ENIC for not making us great now and the prices of the ST, I think what ENIC have done will set us up for a very bright future

No anger, just rational analysis of facts.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

pointless trying to explain mate, we never signed no one this season, won't ever buy the moaners dream players, haven't over spent especially since we announced and got permission to build it, and we have a massive loan thanks to Brexit.

what we should of done to become successful is stay at the old lane, pay top wages, buy top players just to give us hope of a Caraboa Cup win.

I’m sorry but this is a truly pathetic misrepresentation of the view that is contrary to yours.

 

[Lighty64]

No anger, just rational analysis of facts.

so tell me how we go about building a stadium without it effecting us. you have the facts

tell us what Levy should of done differently in your opinion and how

if your talking about financials put proof out in the open to back your FACTS

if you really think we could of competed with the big boys in the old stadium, then please explain how, because no other club has been able to in a stadium holding less than 40k other than Leicester, and I'd lay a bet with you that won't ever happen again, because if it was possible the league wouldn't have the same 6 teams in the top 6 the majority of the time

 

[Lighty64]

@[email protected] if your going to spam, disagree or doh every post I make, make a contribution and show me and prove to me I'm wrong.

just because @am_yisrael_chai knows we are trying to sell the club even though he has also stated there are no takers it doesn't make his opinion correct. if he proves to me like I have asked you before that the way we have gone is completely wrong and we should of done it a different way then so be it.

yes we could of still had a massive stadium but not done this, or done that, but other than the cheese room (which I doubt put the cost up enough to dent the tea lady's wages) we are about to open a state of the art stadium, that is multi task, that will 1 day have a naming rights, and will make the club enough money to be able to compete.

the only way we did that at the old stadium is throw money at it, with low attendances so would mean using old Joe's dosh, the thing is old Joe's money is tied up in a lot of areas, he doesn't walk around with his fortune in his back pocket.

all I'm asking is for proof of the facts, because if it's proved to me, my opinion will change I can guarantee that, though I still will appreciate what improvement I've seen since the Sugar days

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

so tell me how we go about building a stadium without it effecting us. you have the facts

tell us what Levy should of done differently in your opinion and how

if your talking about financials put proof out in the open to back your FACTS

if you really think we could of competed with the big boys in the old stadium, then please explain how, because no other club has been able to in a stadium holding less than 40k other than Leicester, and I'd lay a bet with you that won't ever happen again, because if it was possible the league wouldn't have the same 6 teams in the top 6 the majority of the time

We should build the stadium, when did I ever say we shouldn’t ? In fact please find one poster in this thread or the Levy thread who advocated not building the new stadium. This is just another red herring where you want to portray an opinion as a straw man that hasn’t been advocated at all.

How can we build the stadium and still spend, just look to the opening post and look at the numbers. I’m not sure how many different ways I can say it. Once again I really don’t mean to be patronising but I simply don’t think you understand finances so it is pretty hard to debate this with you. You have in your head a simplistic notion that the stadium costs a lot of money (it does) and therefore we have to be parsimonious when it comes to the squad. This notion ignores the massive increase in revenues, the debt financing we have in place, the low level of interest rates (which means our debt service costs are a fraction of Arsenal’s) or the impact that stadium naming rights should play in funding the stadium (another Levy error for which I simply don’t think the team / fans should pay - what odds on the entirety of your reply focussing on this ?).

 

[Lighty64]

We should build the stadium, when did I ever say we shouldn’t ? In fact please find one poster in this thread or the Levy thread who advocated not building the new stadium. This is just another red herring where you want to portray an opinion as a straw man that hasn’t been advocated at all.

How can we build the stadium and still spend, just look to the opening post and look at the numbers. I’m not sure how many different ways I can say it. Once again I really don’t mean to be patronising but I simply don’t think you understand finances so it is pretty hard to debate this with you. You have in your head a simplistic notion that the stadium costs a lot of money (it does) and therefore we have to be parsimonious when it comes to the squad. This notion ignores the massive increase in revenues, the debt financing we have in place, the low level of interest rates (which means our debt service costs are a fraction of Arsenal’s) or the impact that stadium naming rights should play in funding the stadium (another Levy error for which I simply don’t think the team / fans should pay - what odds on the entirety of your reply focussing on this ?).

you have mentioned it plenty of times by your phrase of "Bricks and Motar".

those figures are for 1 bloody season, 1! not 21!, not 101! 1, and when those figures come in they equal £163m after all that's taken away, we have since been hit with delays that are costing us big, without a guarantee when those cost will end, we have also seen the stadium cost us an extra 60% which your contribution will never pay off, we also have a squad of 26 players (28 if you include the 2 loanes) you can only have 25 players playing, and we never sold anyone. the 4 players we wanted rid of their wages per month equals in the region of £1,213,333 (£14,560,000 the year) which is a lot of money a month/year if you have to have them sitting at home picking their noses, and that's not to even take into consideration the new signings wages, which if we are to start paying the going rate £150k P/W for just 1 player (remember we need 2 or 3) is 7.8m for the season so times that by 3 you have 23.4m + 14.560 and all of a sudden that's near on 38m (those figures are finance).

we don't have a namings right yet, as you told me in the summer our dear leader fucked that up for being too greedy

edit: also take into account that if all players we do want to sign contracts do, our overall wage bill will near on double which the money we do have left after the January window will be used towards that.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

you have mentioned it plenty of times by your phrase of "Bricks and Motar".

those figures are for 1 bloody season, 1! not 21!, not 101! 1, and when those figures come in they equal £163 after all that's taken away, we have since been hit with delays that are costing us big, without a guarantee when those cost will end, we have also seen the stadium cost us an extra 60% which your contribution will never pay off, we also have a squad of 26 players (28 if you include the 2 loanes) you can only have 25 players playing, and we never sold anyone. the 4 players we wanted rid of their wages per month equals in the region of £1,213,333 (£14,560,000 the year) which is a lot of money a month/year if you have to have them sitting at home picking their noses, and that's not to even take into consideration the new signings wages, which if we are to start paying the going rate £150k P/W for just 1 player (remember we need 2 or 3) is 7.8m for the season so times that by 3 you have 23.4m + 14.560 and all of a sudden that's near on 38m (those figures are finance).

we don't have a namings right yet, as you told me in the summer our dear leader fucked that up for being too greedy

You do realise that using bold and exclamation marks doesn’t make your argument any more valid ?

Yes those financials are for one season, last season when we were at Wembley. From next season our financials will be even stronger. How do I know that ? Our match day revenues will be the highest in world football, even higher at the new stadium than they were at Wembley. Could they collapse ? No. Why ? Over 2/3 of the total receipts are from boxes and premium seats, all of which are on 3-10 year contracts. You keep looking back, I have no idea why. I’m looking forward and see with crystal clarity the upward trajectory of our revenues. If you don’t believe me ask yourself this question, which of our financial projections do you think Daniel Levy would subscribe to ? Mine or yours ?

People abused me and ridiculed me 9 months ago when I said our gate receipts would be the highest in world football. When I pointed out that this was based on seeing the prices of the premium seats they said that didn’t matter and all they cared about were the regular seat prices, not acknowledging the correlation between the two. I don’t profess to be a financial prophet, I just look at the information in front of me at the time, I just wish other fans would do the same and demand our owners act accordingly. We are a massive club financially, it’s time we started acting like one instead of pretending to be on the bread line or scaremongering by suggesting if we spend too much we might “do a Leeds”.

 

[Lighty64]

You do realise that using bold and exclamation marks doesn’t make your argument any more valid ?

Yes those financials are for one season, last season when we were at Wembley. From next season our financials will be even stronger. How do I know that ? Our match day revenues will be the highest in world football, even higher at the new stadium than they were at Wembley. Could they collapse ? No. Why ? Over 2/3 of the total receipts are from boxes and premium seats, all of which are on 3-10 year contracts. You keep looking back, I have no idea why. I’m looking forward and see with crystal clarity the upward trajectory of our revenues. If you don’t believe me ask yourself this question, which of our financial projections do you think Daniel Levy would subscribe to ? Mine or yours ?

People abused me and ridiculed me 9 months ago when I said our gate receipts would be the highest in world football. When I pointed out that this was based on seeing the prices of the premium seats they said that didn’t matter and all they cared about were the regular seat prices, not acknowledging the correlation between the two. I don’t profess to be a financial prophet, I just look at the information in front of me at the time, I just wish other fans would do the same and demand our owners act accordingly. We are a massive club financially, it’s time we started acting like one instead of pretending to be on the bread line or scaremongering by suggesting if we spend too much we might “do a Leeds”.

no the exclamations and bold are FACTS

those figures on the OP have no mention of the deductions.

your right we will have a lot higher financials at the end of the season, they would of been a lot higher if the stadium had been ready from the start, but they wasn't, and they still aren't, and until they are guaranteed and we see the figures at the end of the season having to take into account selling the other 8k tickets week in week out, we won't know what will be in the coffers. the figures I put in is £38m wouldn't you rather that £14.560m go towards improving our youth system? the one thing you don't ever do in the financial world is spend today, what you hope to get tomorrow, because every pound counts (okay I'm a small business).

To be honest I'd expect Levy to not spend until he has the dosh in the pocket, because you never know what's around the corner.

yet again the figures you see in front of you doesn't mean you spend because as above you never know, and I bet you never put the figures in front about paying the extra wages, the extra maintenance, the extra staff (even the bloody cost to keep the windows clean).

I could understand your argument if we had been turning over fortunes season, after season, and everything is up and running. the stadium delay has cost us a bloody fortune, the 3 CL nights a lone

apparently I was wrong about us going for De Jong, but that wasn't figures they refused to sell. if Zaha was ever on the books, whose to say he would of wanted the competition, and he was asking for silly wages when we was in a 36k stadium. de Ligt went from 49m to 70m. Grealish went from 25m to 35m, just because the ITK never mentioned it, how do you or anyone know that players turned us down because of the competition for places, or the clubs refused, or just because fees went way north, and all that happening during a WC year, a shorter window, and then the news about the stadium.

also remember Poch was the man that didn't want someone else dealing with transfers, yet while Levy was dealing with everything Poch was taking his well earned holiday in Spain spending his new wages

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

no the exclamations and bold are FACTS

those figures on the OP have no mention of the deductions.

your right we will have a lot higher financials at the end of the season, they would of been a lot higher if the stadium had been ready from the start, but they wasn't, and they still aren't, and until they are guaranteed and we see the figures at the end of the season having to take into account selling the other 8k tickets week in week out, we won't know what will be in the coffers. the figures I put in is £38m wouldn't you rather that £14.560m go towards improving our youth system? the one thing you don't ever do in the financial world is spend today, what you hope to get tomorrow, because every pound counts (okay I'm a small business).

To be honest I'd expect Levy to not spend until he has the dosh in the pocket, because you never know what's around the corner.

yet again the figures you see in front of you doesn't mean you spend because as above you never know, and I bet you never put the figures in front about paying the extra wages, the extra maintenance, the extra staff (even the bloody cost to keep the windows clean).

I could understand your argument if we had been turning over fortunes season, after season, and everything is up and running. the stadium delay has cost us a bloody fortune, the 3 CL nights a lone

apparently I was wrong about us going for De Jong, but that wasn't figures they refused to sell. if Zaha was ever on the books, whose to say he would of wanted the competition, and he was asking for silly wages when we was in a 36k stadium. de Ligt went from 49m to 70m. Grealish went from 25m to 35m, just because the ITK never mentioned it, how do you or anyone know that players turned us down because of the competition for places, or the clubs refused, or just because fees went way north, and all that happening during a WC year, a shorter window, and then the news about the stadium.

also remember Poch was the man that didn't want someone else dealing with transfers, yet while Levy was dealing with everything Poch was taking his well earned holiday in Spain spending his new wages

Extra staff costs.....for cleaning windows. You’ve got me there. I give up. I defer to your obviously superior financial analysis. I can also see that your business building skills “you never know what’s around the corner” are straight out of the Jeff Bezos school of building corporate behemoths.

I apologise for my sarcasm but I’m all out of other options in replying to you.

 

[Lighty64]

Extra staff costs.....for cleaning windows. You’ve got me there. I give up. I defer to your obviously superior financial analysis. I can also see that your business building skills “you never know what’s around the corner” are straight out of the Jeff Bezos school of building corporate behemoths.

I apologise for my sarcasm but I’m all out of other options in replying to you.

you read the post, ignored the emoji (HUMOUR ff sake)

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

@Lighty64 guess which side of this debate our manager is on....

“I think the club is not focussed on winning titles or winning games”

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...tenham-hotspur-manchester-city-premier-league

I don’t see how there could be a more damning internal perspective on our owners than this.

 

[daryl hannah]

@Lighty64 guess which side of this debate our manager is on....

“I think the club is not focussed on winning titles or winning games”

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...tenham-hotspur-manchester-city-premier-league

I don’t see how there could be a more damning internal perspective on our owners than this.

This should be stickied to the top of each of Lighty's posts.