General Youth Football

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I think it is just the cultural norm in Enlish football and ingrained patterns of behaviour really. You say what's the excuse for clubs below PL level but they often haven't had the money for youth academies and the Football League has been built on clubs doing (often extreme) wheeling and dealing. A lot of managers in the pyramid will have previously come through that system as players and it's just the done thing, it's all they know.

At PL level now it's just an arms race. It's like in all walks of life, if people have money then the vast majority feel it has to be spent - and the easiest way is signings. Look at our fans for instance, if we're not going out and spending 50 million (at least) a summer then it feels like to a large number that we're being 'left behind' because of what other clubs are doing... And don't tell me those in charge of clubs don't react in the same way!

I also think that managers come in, often from abroad, and don't have the knowledge and therefore trust of the youth system at the club they take on and so are reluctant to use those players. There is also often a clash of styles and philosophies. I think of Guardiola for instance, people say he had the greatest squad ever at Barca but he still basically made Busquets and Pedro, and was blooding players, and not just the wonderkids like Thiago, but players like Tello and Cuenca. Yes it helps that the spine of the team was bloody amazing and you can introduce players around that, but he knew the system and pathway himself and had the trust in what it was developing. Now look at his work at Man City, who have put a lot in place themselves, and it's totally different approach.

Agree for too long in England academy coaching jobs were given to ex-pro mates who lacked the intelligence, innovation and communicative skills to be good coaches and the youth system suffered badly, old habits and mantras were just recycled year after year by ****s like Redknapp and his ilk, scared to embrace modernisation because they knew it would make them redundant, so they appointed the Sherwood's and Bonds et al to safeguard the status quo and the culture of wheeler dealing being better than coaching, developing, improving and integrating was just too long winded and required way too much hard work.

I think it's changing now at many clubs, there's some good work being done, but coaches and owners have got to start being braver and more forward thinking. They could be making more money if they were smarter about development.

I stand by my point about mid table and championship/Div1/2 clubs though, having a good development policy is financially far more cost effective than any wheeler dealing, just look at European clubs model. For them their really is no excuse - and I include us in that, everyone from PL 5th down - for not having a good development ethos, because any young home grown (and not just English - but home trained) player who can kick a ball straight and manages to make 50 appearances in any division will invariable sell for good money and represent much better investment of resources than trading 29yo shitkickers will.
 

spurs9

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Agree for too long in England academy coaching jobs were given to ex-pro mates who lacked the intelligence, innovation and communicative skills to be good coaches and the youth system suffered badly, old habits and mantras were just recycled year after year by ****s like Redknapp and his ilk, scared to embrace modernisation because they knew it would make them redundant, so they appointed the Sherwood's and Bonds et al to safeguard the status quo and the culture of wheeler dealing being better than coaching, developing, improving and integrating was just too long winded and required way too much hard work.

I think it's changing now at many clubs, there's some good work being done, but coaches and owners have got to start being braver and more forward thinking. They could be making more money if they were smarter about development.

I stand by my point about mid table and championship/Div1/2 clubs though, having a good development policy is financially far more cost effective than any wheeler dealing, just look at European clubs model. For them their really is no excuse - and I include us in that, everyone from PL 5th down - for not having a good development ethos, because any young home grown (and not just English - but home trained) player who can kick a ball straight and manages to make 50 appearances in any division will invariable sell for good money and represent much better investment of resources than trading 29yo shitkickers will.
Do you think English culture also plays a part? When I think back to the best players at my school, none of them had any kind of dedication to football and by 13 or 14 were more interested in drinking. The only player in the school team that made it professionally played 5 season in the Championship at his peak and he was the only one not interested in going out drinking and he wasn't the best player in the school team (though he was up there). Might just be a Northern thing though.

I do think it is a mixture of factors though and there isn't any easy fix.
 

spurs9

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I think it's to easy just to blame money IG, it can definitely exacerbate the situation and a lack of it certainly forcibly induces other nations to integrate youth better, but it's still not the only factor. What's the excuse over the last decade for the clubs from 5th to 17th in the PL and all the clubs below PL level, who aren't uber clubs with unlimited resources ? Many of them have even worse track records for integrating young or home trained (3 years with the club) than some of the richer clubs, and certainly have a worse track record when it comes to their academy producing players that have careers.

Just because money's there doesn't mean a manager has to choose that option. It seems to me there's plenty of precedent of success for managers and clubs who choose to integrate better. Wenger's golden phase seemed to be when he was integrating young players better, Ferguson's best era corresponded with the integration of young players, around Europe some of the best and most successful clubs have some level of decent integration.

It's not just affluence, there's an element of cowardice and in some cases, and in others a lack of faith in their own coaching/tactical abilities that they think a purchase off the shelf can compensate for and rarely does.

In Germany, France, Spain etc there's much more wholistic approach to development and integration, it's just part of the understood system, a logical process that sees club's educate players because they know there is footballing and financial benefits to having a player they have schooled and who will cost them a fraction of the money in fees and wages. It's not just that they don't have money (even teams like Barca, Bayern, Dortmund, Real, Monaco etc all like to develop - even if it's buy to develop and those players end up elsewhere for good fees) it's just logical when you look at the risks and failures of the transfer system, at least a kid you develop is a much more known quantity - you know his abilities and you know his character and personality.
I've just read an article published Nov 2016 that had the stats of the top 25 academies, that produce the most players that play in the top 5 leagues.

Interestingly, England had 3 clubs in the top 24 (us, Arsenal and Man Utd), which is more than Germany, who only had 1 (Bayern Munich) and Italy had 2 (Roma and Milan). France and Spain smashed it though with 11 and 7 clubs respectively and River Plate's academy have produced the joint 14th most players in the top 5 leagues in Europe!

Something I found interesting was that Chelsea, Man City and Southampton made the top 50 but Dortmund didn't.

I do wonder how many of the PL players that counted are eligible to play for England though.

*Criteria was players must have been at the club for 3 years between the ages of 15-21 (i.e home grown rule) and played in a league game (in a top 5 league) last season or a cup game in each of the last 2 seasons.
 
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Do you think English culture also plays a part? When I think back to the best players at my school, none of them had any kind of dedication to football and by 13 or 14 were more interested in drinking. The only player in the school team that made it professionally played 5 season in the Championship at his peak and he was the only one not interested in going out drinking and he wasn't the best player in the school team (though he was up there). Might just be a Northern thing though.

I do think it is a mixture of factors though and there isn't any easy fix.

Definitely. Culture amongst youth and culture amongst scouting and development. I'm 50 now, 35 years ago when I was in the school/club football system (which I can testify to personally and other people I grew up with) which was massively biased toward physical attributes over intelligence and technique. And it stayed that way and in some cases still is that way.
 
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I've just read an article published Nov 2016 that had the stats of the top 25 academies, that produce the most players that play in the top 5 leagues.

Interestingly, England had 3 clubs in the top 24 (us, Arsenal and Man Utd), which is more than Germany, who only had 1 (Bayern Munich) and Italy had 2 (Roma and Milan). France and Spain smashed it though with 11 and 7 clubs respectively and River Plate's academy have produced the joint 14th most players in the top 5 leagues in Europe!

Something I found interesting was that Chelsea, Man City and Southampton made the top 50 but Dortmund didn't.

I do wonder how many of the PL players that counted are eligible to play for England though.

*Criteria was players must have been at the club for 3 years between the ages of 15-21 (i.e home grown rule) and played in a league game (in a top 5 league) last season or a cup game in each of the last 2 seasons.

Ive seen that article (Telegraph via CIES). Hard to evaluate the true merit of one senior appearance as it could be for 5 minutes. But it does reinforce my point that the richest clubs are generally producing more academy footballers.

The CIES also published a list of the clubs (top 5 leagues) who give the highest percentage of time to club trained (3 years 15-21) from 01.12.16 to 01.06.17 and only Arsenal were in the top 25 (19th 24.8%), Dortmund were 38th, we were 48th (12.3%). Of the top 21, Spain and France had 8 teams each, Germany had 3 and England (19th) and Italy (17th) 1 each.

Interms of playing young teams, of the 20 average age youngest teams in the top 5 leagues between the same dates above, Germany piss it with 10 teams, France next with 5, then Spain and Italy with 2 and England with one (Spurs 17th youngest in Europe's top 5 leagues).

Either way on both criteria England coming up well short. Italy next worse, and no coincidence that both those countries have poorer international teams than the other three.
 

teok

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England beat portugal in the final.

Aaron Ramsdale (Gk) - Bournemouth, Dujon Sterling - Chelsea, Jay Dasilva - Chelsea, Tayo Edun - Fulham, Easah Suliman - Aston Villa, Isaac Buckley-Ricketts - Manchester City, Andre Dozzell - Ipswich Town, Mason Mount - Chelsea, Ryan Sessegnon - Fulham, Lukas Nmecha - Manchester City, Darnell Johnson - Leicester City.

Subs: Nathan Trott - West Ham United, Ben Brereton - Nottingham Forest, Marcus Edwards - Tottenham Hotspur, Josh Dasilva - Arsenal, Jacob Maddox - Chelsea, Reece James - Chelsea
 

IGSpur

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So England won the u19 Euros. Funnily, enough the team I was 100% would win their tournament was the u17s. If I was gambing man I would have put money on it, however they conceded an equaliser 3mins deep into stoppage time then lost to pens. But I reckno they'd win teh World Cup.

I also thought our u17s last year were an outside chance to win Euros they didn't do well but the best of em ended up helping to win the u19s.

Been a great summer. I would not have expected this 98 age group to win a tournament and tbf they didn't on their own they required the help of the 99s but what an achievement. Missing Alexander-Arnold, Willock, Field, Humphrys, Davies and Oxford and still managed to win is a testament to the depth all round in England age groups.

I'd back us the win next years u19s too as they could have a 99/00 age group which should really wipe out teams.

As ever the big challenge his how to move these onto the u21s. The u21s, did the 'poorest' but even in getting to the semis their performances look more disjointed. This could easily be down to the coach which they need to fix, but more importantly its the lack of experience or development going on post u19s.

I pray things start changing in terms of opportunities. If the PL gave the same opportunities as La Liga, Ligue 1 etc, I have no doubt England would win a World Cup within the next 20 years, but I know so much of this talent will be wasted
 

IGSpur

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Foden is very talented, excellent dribbler and general player. Knows what he is doing. Sancho will get more recognition due to his fee and also as he is more of a flair player, but again excellent player. However Sancho is more arrogant and it doesn't surprise me that Foden gt onto the bench despite being smaller as he is a harder worker and better team.The rule is something like at u11s the player can't be further than 30min drive from training ground, hour at u13s and then increase. Though it is circumnavigated. I know Brewster is from London but now at Liverpool who have picked a lot of players up from other cities. I can think of quite a few where that rule doesn't apply so don't think its very well monitored
I don't know if anyone saw City v United the other night, but Foden played who I have spoken about a few times on here, and he was absolute class. Really, really hope Pep gives him a chance, either this season or next. While it was a preseason he was schooling some experienced players. Pep said this

"
"I don’t have words - I would like to have the right words to describe what I saw," said Guardiola of Foden's display in Houston.

"You are the lucky guys who saw the first game, for the first team for Manchester City, of this guy.

"It’s a long time since I saw something like this. His performance was another level. He’s 17 years old, he’s a City player, he grew up in the academy, he loves the club, he’s a City fan and for us he’s a gift."

If just 5 players from each successful England age group this summer, come get play first team football, the England national team would have such a formidable team.

 

spurs9

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Andre Dozzell tore his cruciate ligament playing for Ipswich on the weekend as is apparently out for the season poor fella. He's quite highly rated, so hopefully there is no permanent damage.
 

IGSpur

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Andre Dozzell tore his cruciate ligament playing for Ipswich on the weekend as is apparently out for the season poor fella. He's quite highly rated, so hopefully there is no permanent damage.
Heard about that too, massive sha,e. Player of real abiltiy, he actually reminded me of a young Wilshere from deep.

In other news Steven Sessegnon and Matt O'Riley someone I've spoken about on here both started for Fulham. O'Riley is still 16 so is Skipp's age.

Frankie Taylor‏@fptaylormedia 1d1 day ago
O'Riley with a confident, composed and creative display. He's 16 years old. Not 17 until November. Man of the match contender GOOOOOOAOAAAAA

Another quality player from the 00 age group who has been really unlucky with injuries and still managed to debut at 16. Sessegnon has also recovered well. Funnily enough I think him and Hinds are on a similar level but we won't see Hinds for a long time.

Wouldn't be surprised to hear people wanting to go after either of those two later
 

yanno

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Interesting article about young players from top English academies leaving for continental clubs because they're simply not getting the opportunities here, starting with Chris Willock leaving the goons for Benfica.

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How Premier League starlets are cutting ties and going to Germany and Portugal

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...portugal-premier-league-starlets-cutting-ties
 

yanno

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So, despite the fact Jadon Sancho had not signed a professional contract and was only bound by the remaining year of his academy scholarship deal, Shitty still only allowed him to talk with non-PL clubs and The Guardian is reporting the fee as £8 million.

Given fellow England age group international Nya Kirby basically walked out of his Spurs scholarship deal and ended up at Palace, with no tribunal ever being publicly involved, I don't understand the rules and regulations.

How were Shitty able to get £8 milion and insist on an overseas deal for a non-professional player who was homesick for London?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/aug/31/jadon-sancho-borussia-dortmund-manchester-city
 
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Interesting article about young players from top English academies leaving for continental clubs because they're simply not getting the opportunities here, starting with Chris Willock leaving the goons for Benfica.

-------------------------------------

How Premier League starlets are cutting ties and going to Germany and Portugal

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...portugal-premier-league-starlets-cutting-ties

It's a shame more of England's best young kids didn't have the cahoonies that many foreign kids have and went abroad for their football education, many of them would have much better careers if they had. I guess Brexit's going to kill this idea soon anyway, that's if it ever took off.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Just watching the U21's. There's a decent bunch of footballer's here (some of the U20's that won the WC, but in Boothroyd's hands they play such a fucking terrible brand of football. Without the ball they are hopeless, sit back, no pressing, passive block, then there's no real philosophy with the ball. First half they just stood off and watched Holland play. Second they were a little better but no real ethos just Redknapp type football, we have go, then let them have a go etc.

A real shame England have put such a poor coach in charge of such a pivotal age group.
 

spursfan77

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Just watching the U21's. There's a decent bunch of footballer's here (some of the U20's that won the WC, but in Boothroyd's hands they play such a fucking terrible brand of football. Without the ball they are hopeless, sit back, no pressing, passive block, then there's no real philosophy with the ball. First half they just stood off and watched Holland play. Second they were a little better but no real ethos just Redknapp type football, we have go, then let them have a go etc.

A real shame England have put such a poor coach in charge of such a pivotal age group.
Trouble is, you wouldn't not put your money on Boothroyd being the next England manager. That's how incompetent the FA are
 

IGSpur

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Everton have signed Dennis Adeniran. Don't think he was getting games at Fulham surprisingly but decent signing by Everton, and as I've mentioned before trying to sign them before they make first team appearances could be a clever tactic.

Don't think Adeniran has progressed quite as expected over last year but could be a powerful CM

@edson
 

Cornpattbuck

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Everton have signed Dennis Adeniran. Don't think he was getting games at Fulham surprisingly but decent signing by Everton, and as I've mentioned before trying to sign them before they make first team appearances could be a clever tactic.

Don't think Adeniran has progressed quite as expected over last year but could be a powerful CM

@edson
Feels like Everton have been buying a player a week over the past year!
 
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