General Youth Football

Discussion in 'General Football' started by IGSpur, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. Cornpattbuck

    Cornpattbuck Well-Known Member

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  2. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    Couple of interesting notes and pieces this guy watches Brazilian youth football and said this about Foden, when the u17s faced Brazil

    Andre Noruega‏Verified account
    Halftime: England 0x0 Brazil. England has been the best team, Phil Foden DOMINATING. Maybe the best u20 player I have ever seen.

    And there is this bit taken from the article below

    A Juventus scout came to assess Brazilian striker Yuri Alberto, who also interests Arsenal, Manchester United and Inter Milan. By half-time he was telling his superiors about the dynamism of Tottenham’s Tashan Oakley-Boothe and the game intelligence of Manchester City’s playmaker Phil Foden, the defensive qualities of Chelsea’s Marc Guehi.

    As I've said this group is quality and this exluded Sancho and doesn't even mention Gomes. I will never understand the logic we have in England of buy everyone and block talented players, and the reasoning being, if they are good enough they should like the competition, when we know full well this does not work. We are having Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Brazilian scouts, coaches what have you saying that England are producing better players than other countries yet end up buying other countries talents based off the fact that they are given a chance in their countries leagues.

    We say lets not hand them chances on a plate and they should earn their way but what manager especially in England will play a player with zero experience over a player bought for 20m with 50 games behind them. Regardless of how well these kids play in training there will always be an element of doubt. What's worse is that if and it's a big if that youth player gets his chance he is expected to be immediately better than said signing otherwise he loses his chance. Whats' even more ridiculous is even when youth player makes their first competitive chance and get MOTM they are still dropped and their path blocked *cough* KWP *cough*. It is so ridiculous. Everyone loves to point out how young players need a chance, and acknowledge there's a problem but people have issues with allowing players to develop or creating a clear pathway for them. Every excuse under the sun will be made to stop a player getting a chance, like not handing it to them on a plate, as if a player who has worked their ass off to become a pro will of a sudden not appreciate it. In England to get a chance in a PL club there have to be an incredible set of circumstances that work in your favour to get a chance even if you are good enough to be playing e.g. Rashford and Kane.

    How is that good? How does it benefit the league or a club to stick a Sigurdsson for 50m in front of a player like Kieran Dowell. What do you lose by playing Dowell? All clubs suffer from this including us. If the PL had the same ratio of English playres coming through as Germany do Germans, France do French etc. the BPL would be even stronger, more entertaining than it is now and I would be confident of England winning the World Cup, the only thing leaving me in doubt is the lack of English managers.

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    The dream starts here for England’s youngsters
    michael calvin

    England’s youth players had a summer of love but their passion will be tested in the harsher confines of their clubsM

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    At times like this, when criticism is fierce and the familiar flaws of another World Cup qualifying campaign cannot be camouflaged by results, Gareth Southgate would be forgiven for coveting a return to development football, where England teams operate in a bubble of best practice and earnest intentions.

    His new world is harsher, infinitely more judgemental, but not entirely without hope, since the struggle for consistency and credibility at senior international level is balanced by the burgeoning promise of age group squads which have carried on where they left off in their summer of love.

    England’s under-20 team, the current world champions, set the tone on Thursday evening with a comfortable 3-0 victory over Holland. Tottenham’s Marcus Edwards, rashly compared to Lionel Messi by Mauricio Pochettino, scored with a sumptuous free-kick.

    The under-19s won 7-1, easing up, against Poland at St George’s Park the next day. Their quality of movement and poise on the ball were so impressive that hat-tricks by George Hirst, of Sheffield Wednesday, and Arsenal’s Edward Nketiah seemed almost incidental.

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    Young gun: Marc Guehi of England Under-17s is expected to shine at the World Cup in IndiaPAUL THOMAS
    Ipswich Town’s Tristan Nydam announced himself as a beautifully balanced left-footed midfield player. The creativity of Sunderland’s Elliot Embleton, scorer of the other goal, compensated for occasional coltish clumsiness. Arsenal’s Reiss Nelson seized the eye as a second-half substitute.

    Seven of the team that won the Under-20 World Cup featured in the opening match of England’s European Under-21 Championship qualifying programme on Friday night, a 1-1 draw in Holland. Everton’s Dominic Calvert-Lewin maintained the momentum of a breakthrough season with a goal on his debut.

    Arguably England’s most naturally talented group began their preparations for next month’s Under-17 World Cup finals in India with a goalless draw in an under-18 friendly against Brazil. England even won the penalty shoot-out, 5-4.

    Steve Cooper, their head coach, preferred to highlight collective virtues rather than individual contributions. He was reflecting the conservatism of his trade; others, with less altruistic motives, were more prepared to name names and, quietly, estimate market values.

    A Juventus scout came to assess Brazilian striker Yuri Alberto, who also interests Arsenal, Manchester United and Inter Milan. By half-time he was telling his superiors about the dynamism of Tottenham’s Tashan Oakley-Boothe and the game intelligence of Manchester City’s playmaker Phil Foden, the defensive qualities of Chelsea’s Marc Guehi.

    Foden fits the Barça blueprint. His instant control and instinctive appreciation of space is matched by discipline out of possession. His tactical maturity enabled him to play across a front three supporting a lone striker, Liverpool’s Rhian Brewster. My companion suggested he is already worth double the £8m Borussia Dortmund paid for Jadon Sancho, his disaffected City colleague, on Thursday.

    At 17, he has made City’s first-team bench in the Champions League and starred in a friendly against Manchester United. He will doubtless be Pep Guardiola’s first Premier League debutant from the club’s £200m academy, but the system needs more than token opportunity if its pretensions are not to be exposed. The depth of England’s talent pool is highlighted in a password-protected room on the top floor of the National Football Centre. The names and passport-style photographs of England’s best young players, arranged in seven squads from under-15s upwards, are posted vertically on the walls. Each features an optimal starting 11 in a 4-2-3-1 formation.

    Dan Ashworth, the FA’s technical director, classifies 459 youth players as England’s elite. Of those, 175 are female, and have a less cluttered pathway since statistics suggest 19% will become full internationals. Only 5.28% of the 284 male players will progress to the senior team.

    The fallout rate begs questions of the game’s duty of care. Around half of one per cent of the boys who enter academies at the age of nine will make a living from the game. Only 180 of the 1.5m who play organised youth football in England at any one time will play in the Premier League, a success rate of 0.012%.

    Southgate is admirably realistic: “We can spot a talent, get an idea of the stability of the family, but the path is so complex. The defining factor in a successful pro is mentality. You’re assuming he is at a high level technically, but there is something very important about the ability to learn, to keep wanting to learn and improve. It’s about dealing with the constant setbacks, the constant need to adapt and adjust.”

    That is Sancho’s challenge. Hailed as “one of the biggest talents in European football” by Dortmund’s Michael Zorc, his departure from City, and consequent withdrawal from Cooper’s under-17 squad, was messy. As one of four England youth internationals in the Bundesliga, he embodies football’s institutionalised impatience and opportunism.

    The biggest push internationally involves the identification of leaders. Players are consciously placed in uncomfortable situations, such as standing up in front of their peers to manage video analysis of set-piece plays. Their personalities, performance principles and belief systems are investigated in one-on-one sessions with coaches and support staff.

    They interact seamlessly with their seniors; Harry Kane spoke to Cooper’s squad about the importance of taking what could be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Jack Butland did a one-hour Skype session with the goalkeepers. Everton’s Tom Davies will share his experience of breaking into first-team football.

    “A large percentage of these boys are fresh out of school,” Cooper explained. “They are athletes and look like footballers with the England kit on but there are so many things swirling around them. We are working for the here and now, with one eye on the long-term vision of being successful at senior level.

    “I am really proud of them, the way they speak with adults, the way they get each other up when they are down, the way they represent themselves. They are a credit to their generation. They have a commitment to learning, to performing under pressure and delivering when it counts. If you haven’t got that I don’t think you will do the distance with us.”

    STARLETS GO ABROAD TO MAKE THEIR NAME
    • Jadon Sancho Manchester City’s England Under-17 forward moved to Borussia Dortmund on transfer deadline day for £10m. The 17-year-old, who joined City from Watford in 2015, had refused to train in an effort to force a move. He will wear the No7 shirt vacated by Ousmane Dembele, who signed for Barcelona for an initial £96.8m, rising to £135.5m. So, no pressure the
    • Chris Willock The 19-year-old joined Arsenal’s academy when he was five, but after only two substitute appearances totalling 25 minutes in League Cup ties, the winger, who has played at England Under-16/17/18/19 levels, signed a five-year deal with the Portuguese champions Benfica
    • Reece Oxford Made a big impression when West Ham won at Arsenal on the opening day of the 2015-6 season. Now 18, he has represented England from Under-16 to Under-20 levels and moved on loan to Borussia Monchengladbach.
    • Kaylen Hinds Another Arsenal product, the 19-year-old England Under-16/17/18 striker joined Wolfsburg in July on a three-year deal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
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  3. Hengy1

    Hengy1 Well-Known Member

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    Jadon Sancho played for Dortmund U23 yesterday. Didn't wear his number 7 shirt though ( assume that's for first team games only? )

    Looked like he got a assist
     
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  4. spursfan77

    spursfan77 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why he didn't play in the European youth cup thingy against us yesterday
     
  5. Hengy1

    Hengy1 Well-Known Member

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    That's a U19 tournament so maybe they think he's too good to play at that level.

    Tbh with the big deal made about signing him im surprised he's even playing for the U23s
     
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  6. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    Was that the game a few days ago where he got an assist on debut or did he also play yesterday and get another assist
     
  7. Hengy1

    Hengy1 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure mate just see the video he put up on Instagram yesterday
     
  8. Hengy1

    Hengy1 Well-Known Member

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    Just looked and it was the 9th
     
  9. Cornpattbuck

    Cornpattbuck Well-Known Member

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    Just realised that Brewster is yet another Londoner plying his trade on Merseyside now (Chelsea previously). Swear you could make a whole squad of exciting youth players raised in London but now playing for Everton/Liverpool.
     
  10. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    AS paper on England.

    Praise for McEachan and Foden. Funny thing about McEachran, is while I thought he was excellent at Euros, others didn't. Most agreed that McEachran would not haves started had Kirby, Gomes and O'Riley not been fit. He got the nod for the World Cup and has been one of our best players too. I really like McEachran but goes to show the strength of this age group. Gomes who some would say is the biggest talent in this age group has been so off form that he has barely featured, and Kirby has been his backup.

    Though McEachran has made a couple of errors I think he has controlled a lot of his games and his probing passes have been great. Foden has really brought himself to this tournament and is having a better one than his Euros.

    We face Spain again. I don't know how they will line up but I think, that while we miss Sancho on this occasion the team will actually be stronger. We will have a better CM, arguably our best defence as Latibeaduiere was drafted in purely for the final and Brewster in form, where last tournament he was struggling.

    Thought we deserved to win the Euros and we would have but for a really poor decision from Panzo so hopefully we take our revenge Saturday. Shows I how strong the 2 teams are though. Brazil age group really impressed me. We've played them twice and they have looked really good here
     
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  11. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    Shows how great Chelsea's academy is that the cast offs become other PL clubs best players
     
  12. Marty

    Marty Throbbing member

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    Are they cast-offs though, or are they kids who realise that they have a much better chance of featuring for the senior side at other clubs and move willingly?

    And is McEachran a younger brother of the Chelsea kid everyone thought was the next English superstar a few years back who never amounted to anything?
     
  13. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know at the time, but I had heard he was released, however he said in an interview that he left looking for chanes. Not sure about Nketiah, but still they lost them and still have quality and they go on to impress.

    Yes he is. Josh as with all the talented youth in this country fell victim to the obstacles and excuses, and now finds himself at Brentford
     
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  14. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    I noticed after England's victory pundits were already coming out and pouring cold water on it before they even got home. As if we don't all realise they're going to struggle for chances despite all the good spirit but at least let them have a bit of a moment.

    Danny Mills was complaining that the u17s were wearing their shirts backwards and the England badge wasn't on display which means they weren't representing England properly. But these boys represented England better than any senior players ever have.

    Lampard was talking about how now they need to really start the hard work etc. These ex pros sound like baby boomers telling millennials about how they've never had it so easy, as millennials can't afford house after their parents basically being handed them.

    The football equivalent is the Lampard era and before, had less money and less foreigners in meaning they had much greater chance of getting chances, but they make it sound as if their work ethic was so much better than the current players, who have clearly been working their ass off to get where they are. They imply that the reason they won't get chances is because they don't really want it, like they are just going to pack in the game now. Why can't people point the finger where he needs to be pointed. which is at the managers and the league. These players are better than the Lampard generation and will get nowhere near the same chances, let them have their moment,.

    Also, and I was going to say it at the time, but the commentary, is so old school. Constantly talking about the pace and power of England despite completely dominating the ball against Spain and them trying to catch us on the counter attack. Hudson-Odoi was quick but he was skinning his man with skill despite being the youngest on the pitch. Commentators are so stuck in the past they think these boys have got here by muscling people around and aren't actually watching.

    According to the official records the average height of England's starters in the final was 178.4 cm (5'10" and 2 tenths), whereas the average height of Spain's starters in the final: 178.2 cm (5'10" and 2 tenths). Yet people will always mention the England players size. It's ridiculous
     
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  15. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    I was away over weekend so went back through thread too see thoughts on game and this was a good question that was missed at the time. I brought in here as I think more appropriate.

    I think like most things it isn't a straight forward answer and it is a combination of the clubs and the EPPP. The restructuring of ours and a few other academies happened before the EPPP came in in 2012, so I assume the clubs took the initiative. They invested a lot in their academies, and started to put in top quality coaching and got the best scouts in. The EPPP helped as it encouraged all of the best academy players to move to the top quality clubs to receive the best coaching; taking the best and making them better, so it is a combination of factors. When you have a football mad country, and 2 the best academy setups in arguably the world able to poach the best talent, you will create the best players.

    The FA have also introduced the DNA where they want teams to stick together as they come through the England age groups and play in a certain style, so they play more like a team. I think this is also paying off and is seen best in the current u18s (World Cup winners) and was started and ingrained in them by Dan Michicce(who has since been sacked) while they were u16s.

    The funny thing with the EPPP and it was touched on perfectly in an article I posted by KingSRV is that it is both a key reason for the our success at youth level but also the reason why none of them can get through to the senior team. The EPPP is funneling all of the best players into the top 6 clubs, and in particular the 2 richest clubs which hold over half of the elite talent in England. However, the are also funneling it to the two clubs that have the least interest in bring youth through. Chelsea and City have won the majority of the PL trophies in the last 5/6 years so they have no incentive to give the young players a chance, and as far as they are concerned their methods work. Additionally, there is no risk in them not playing them. They ensure none of their rivals can bite them on their ass by holding all the talent. If a talent does leave and move abroad City or Chelsea won't bat an eyelid dropping £100m in trying to sign them back. It doesn't matter to them. These 2 clubs are in the extreme but really it affects all of the top 6.

    This is why when a new youngster comes through in the Football League and everyone crows that they need to be signed I don't understand why. The way the EPPP is set up, if there is a quality player in England all of the big clubs will know about them. 8 times out of 10 Chelsea or one of the top clubs will poach them and rarely will the parents turn down the opportunity for immediate financial security. That means 90% of the elite players in England are in the top 6 clubs and they struggle to come through. Occasionally a player might turn down the opportunity and choose as more clear pathway, or there may be late developers but majority of these players will be known to teh best clubs. It's why when Bishop, Maddison and all these kids come through, talented as they were I didn't believe they were any better than Winks, but when these boys comes through people wanted them instead. A perfect example is that Colkett, Palmer and Gomez were all in the same age group at Charlton. Colkett left to join Chelsea at u8s and was quality, I think Palmer joined later and would bang in spectacular goals, and Gomez decided to stay. Now look at Joe Gomez, in the PL while the others are struggling on loan again after their development has been stunted. And this is the problem, Chelsea have produced top quality players that contribute to Englnad but they eventually won't go through. And this isn't exclusive to Chelsea and City, if they don't get the players, then Liverpool will, or United or us, and we are all essentially as bad as each other at bringing youngsters through. So you have a situation where 90% of the academy talent who have swept all before them over the summer, are stuck in clubs who are unable or unwilling to give them chances.

    If you're lucky you'll get talent that choose to stay at their clubs to come through an easy route or you'll get the late developers who end up in the league. Like Lookman, Alli, Gomez, Stones, Gray and everyone thinks that these guys are the biggest and best talents we have on offer and are unaware of the amount of gold being wasted by the top clubs. It's criminal. If you look at the u21s teams and compare the team to the same age group a few years back teh teams change so much as the opportunities now go to those who are playing in the Football League and you end up with fans asking for us to sign Dominic Iorfa, while we have CCV.

    I'm picking up on this as well BC as I think this point is linked to the one above. Mid to lower PL clubs and Championship clubs are struggling to produce players as anytime they get to a good level they are instantly plucked by the big sides. So the pool they have to choose from is very small. So while it is not impossible sometimes these clubs just don't have the players ready to step in, though I'm sure the best of the academies are still more than capable of playing PL football. One of the best clubs to point out to I guess prove both of our points is to look at WBA. Strikers and AMs are gold dust for managers as they get the goals but are also worth the most money. WBA had produced Izzy Brown, Jerome Sinclair, Yan Dhanda and I feel one other in recent times who had they not been poached would have been more than good enough to play PL football with the right manager, however they don't have the rate manager and you've got, 'win at all costs' Pulis there who has an excellent source of players under him but can't tap into them. He had Jonathan Leko, Tyler Roberts who are more talented strikers and if he had any cajones would give them a chance, he isn't really going to challenge for top 4 so doesn't have that excuse and should not be getting relegated so has a great breeding ground to play these players and if they did play they would take them further, but they have a manager who's only concern is aiming for 40 points and one who also can't coach players and instead stifles any ability. Palace have done Ok with Bolasie, Zaha and Williams, Fulham have brought through Sessegnon, Roberts, and Woodrow (and will hopefully bring through Steven and O'Riley) so they're a club with quality players that try and bring them through. But I think the lack of chances comes down to a lack of quality options available due to the top 6 skimming off the best and the lack of courage from the managers.

    Finally and I have mentioned this before. i feel if they want the EPPP to work and the FA aren't going to create rules like having 5 English players in squad etc. they should give Cat 1 status to Championship and League One clubs. That was all of the talent we are seeing are playing in the Football League for clubs that will be willing to give them chances as they are their players. They will also be better than what they have and will have massive rewards in bringing through the best ones. Whether that be through promotion or the big clubs spending massive money on trying to sign them. I don't know what it will do, if they then become PL clubs and rich due to the money received, would the Cat 1 status be removed. I haven't thought that far ahead but it makes absolutely no sense in having all that talent go to waste
     
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  16. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Can you explain how the FA through EPPP funnels kids toward these top 6 academies ? I mean talented kids like Sessegnon are proof that you can speed up your career and star for England development teams and not be part of a PL academy.

    It's not really the FA or EPPP, or even the big clubs themselves that are forcing any of this, it's fundamentally the kids and their parents that are making choices isn't it ? And to be honest I don't entirely blame them. But I don't really blame clubs like Chelsea or ManC either. They set these families up financially, the kids get outstanding footballing educations, they also have feeder clubs abroad which gets these kids proper game time, character builds them as they have to live abroad, maybe teaches them a foreign language and we are starting to see that even if they don't make it with Chelsea or ManC they attract serious interest from other clubs looking to take them on because they know they've had the best youth coaching, have winning mentalities and have some experience.

    There are 92 league clubs and quite a few more non league that have academy systems. The top 6 clubs can't be stealing every single decent kid from all of these academies. I think it's time we started pointing our fingers further down the foot chain to every club but the top 6. There are very sound footballing and financial reasons why managers further down the food chain should be integrating.

    And as much as there are really good reasons to choose top 6 and EPPP academies, there are also really sound career reasons why kids, their parents and advisers should be choosing everyone but the top 6 clubs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  17. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    I would try and cut and paste from it but best to read the article, he says things a lot better than me

    https://youthhawk.wordpress.com/201...dern-english-youth-football-a-deconstruction/
     
  18. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Thanks IG, I remember reading that piece before. I have read it again and I still don't understand the mechanics of EPPP, especially in terms of forcing or inducing kids toward the top 4/5 clubs ?

    Only a select group qualify for EPPP status I assume, due to the holistic package they can offer, but no one is being forced to join those academies ? Encouraged maybe, but not forced ?
     
  19. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    I definitely meant encouraged, if I did, I didn't mean to say forced. But everything is favoured towards Cat 1 clubs, and comp fees for Cat 2 clubs are minuscule, which is why other clubs I think decided to close their academies. They're producing players but often not reaping the benefits of having a good setup as they can barely get them to the first team where they can make a profit.The best are poached early. Though not every Pl club is Cat 1 so you're point still stands, in that they can refuse to go to the best clubs if they want to turn down the riches.
     
  20. Hengy1

    Hengy1 Well-Known Member

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    Sancho on for Dortmund against Bayern
     

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