General Youth Football

Discussion in 'General Football' started by IGSpur, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    And so it begins. Jann-Fiet Arp, Germany u18s prolific German u18s striker who featured at the Euros and World Cup has started 3 games for Hamburg and scored 2 goals and there are already rerports of people chasing him. No doubt he'll have his own thread in the transfer forum. The one player from our age group who just won the World Cup, with the most top flight experience atm, is Sancho currently in Germany.

    This is where we normally see the paths of the players completely differ. Our u17s have beaten Germany twice once when Arp wasn't playing and we won 8-1 with our own Lyons-Foster in the side, and once we beat them 3-2 when Arp did play and we had TOB, Kirby and Eyoma in the side.

    Now begins the process of tracking where the German players end up compared to teh English players. A week on and all the hype has died down and I believe things will resume as normal and nothing will change. Hopefully as many get out of the PL as possible and start getting first team experience. I wonder how long until any of Skipp, TOB, Eyoma, Lyons-Foster, Griffiths and Hinds see the PL if any do make it that far.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
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  2. mill

    mill Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I noticed he started the weekend just gone and thought about how that just doesn’t happen here, granted Hamburg seem pretty poor but it’s just such a different approach over there, something I’m envious of
     
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  3. edson

    edson Well-Known Member

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    Good to see Ismail Azzaoui starting to score goals,go to 4.43 in the first video.

    Go to 3.43 on the second video.



     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
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  4. mill

    mill Well-Known Member

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  5. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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  6. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    I'll move this here not so as not to annoy people, who want to just fantasise over the next big things elsewhere.

    Not really criticising the link and I'm not against your logic, never really have been, but striker isn't an area at the moment where we are completely void of players. I don't doubt that Arp is probably better than oura right now, but I don't understand the point in just buying the player who is currently performing better than your own player at this specific time, who's reputation has only just been boosted by virtue of fortunately being in a league that gives chances. Reo Griffiths who I concede is probably not as good as Arp, has also played for the talented World Cup winners age group. He didn't get in because he was behind Loader who I actually think is better than Brewster, and Brewster who won the Golden Boot, so why not just work on him or Sterling. It snot necessarily going to benefit us signing Arp, and the only way it might benefit England is, not by making us better, but by us making Germany worse the same we partially destroyed Holland. Buy Germany's best talent and never playing them. I wonder how long it will be before Brewster gets his chance, it's the whole reason I constantly moan about the PL. The constant putting obstacles in players ways whereas the Bundesliga will throw caution to the wind and try them out.

    Regardless our current crop of strikers is the best we've had for a while. Kane and Obika were decent but only one of them ever featured for England. We currently have 2 that have played for England plus Harrison, who while he's been injured, played in an age group with a strong collection of strikers. I don't think they are on Kane's level but then again Kane got to show what he could do at 18 whereas ours are battling in the u23s still. And while I always liked Kane it didn't hit me that I thought it would be quality until the 13/14 season, and our boys still have plenty of time on their side so lets develop them. If we are going to sign someone we should go for a place we we lack any real quality or competition, and at the moment I'd argue that's on the wing.

    I will continue to moan below now not related to your post and not at you.

    The other, funny thing I find about football and I just scanned that page of the Scouting Thread is that it's just full of the latest fashionable in form player. It happens all the time. Fans, and I don't blame, them will be shocked by any youth player doing well in the league, like it's a surprise and be hooked by them and want us to sign them, and they are often not event the best players in their age groups, they are just fortunate to be at a club willing to give them a chance or who had suffered from injuries. And suddenly everyone's judgement is that, that player must have some sort of special talent. It always happens, when 9 times out of 10 that player won't even be better than the best player we have in our own academy. Yes I am confident in that, as England and us are currently producing the best players in the world.

    What happened to Breel Embolo? Not saying he wasn't talented but given a chance in the Swiss League and everyone wanted him and he was THE special talent. No one wants him now. In the same age group but the following season Rashford luckily gets a chance. All of a sudden he was golden boy and the special talent. And I said at youth level he wasn't in the top 3 strikers in his age group, but no one would believe it as Rashford was special and the others weren't playing in the Prem. The one I liked the most though, Abraham, was at Chelsea and will struggle to prove himself and therefore had no opportunity to prove he was better than his contemporaries. Fortunately he has had a good loan and now they are finally both at the same level. Despite Abraham playing in a considerably worse team he has one more goal in the same amount of games than Rashford. The point is why can't people just trust their own and show patience. Why must we instantly jump on the first thing that moves. It is so frustrating but no one bats and eyelid. Just glancing at that scouting thread and people are falling over themselves to name a new player to buy, players who aren't even elite, I'm talking u21s and below btw. But if I or someone else suggest Edwards should be in the frist team instead of signing someone, I will see a response along the lines of he isn't strong enough or make some sort of excuse. Edwards is an u19 Euro winner and the best player in that team, 3 years older than Arp, but if we signed Arp people would no doubt be happy to see him on our bench.

    This mentality of what you don't have is always better than what you do have is how you end up with the ridiculous situation of Ethan Ampadu. A player born in the same age group as our World Cup winners. At u16 level he wasn't good enough to get into the squad, I think he played one game. Then chose to opt for Wales where he played regularly. He also trialed at most of the top clubs but never joined them. He then comes through for Exeter and plays first team football, he is now deemed good enough to be playing INTERNATIONAL football for Wales. Chelesa have now signed him and he has already featured for their first team. Yet the players they have in their academy who won the World Cup who are so much better than Ampadu, he couldn't get into the England team or the Chelsea team, are now playing u18s and u23s football. They have the better players but if it comes with a price tag it looks so much better. It is actually sickening how much England is missing out on due to this mentality.

    If every club just stuck to attempting to coach and bring through their own players rather than purchasing others, England would be in a so much better place. If England had a rule where PL clubs couldn't sign a young player until they've played at least 2 seasons at their parent club, things would be better. All the talented players outside of the top 6 would more likely have come through and would encourage the top 6 to bring their own players through.

    Everyone is in agreement that something needs to change but no ones mentality has changed even since the remarkable summer we've had and it's why I don't think anything will change. We are in a situation where we fawn over players who aren't better than anyone in our first team but won't give a young player a chance unless they're better than our first team. FWIW I sometimes enjoy the scouting thread and looking at new players as a bit of fun, but realistically as a club we should only be signing players that will improve our first team if possible, there is no need to sign youth players and u21s from other clubs at this point, especially as we have an development squad that could provide squad cover in most positions.
     
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  7. spurs9

    spurs9 Well-Known Member

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    He broke his leg in October last year and got back to training until August. He is also still only 20.
     
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  8. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    Cheers, As I said I don't doubt his talent but I doubt he will be much better than the best English strikers if they were given a chance.

    Reminds me of the Lukaku situation. Physically developed player coming through early in a week league and developing faster. Meanwhile we have Kane looking cumbersome in our academy according to most, who won't ever make it, and now Kane imo is better than Lukaku, if everyone had their way and got Lukaku we may never have seen Kane. I wouldn't say we put faith in him but it ended up working out for the best Chelsea signing him. Lukaku has actually done really well too. I'll be impressed if Embolo gets to that level.
     
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  9. Marty

    Marty Throbbing member

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    Didn't think Jar-Jar had the motoring skills to make it as a footballer tbh. :coffee:
     
  10. taidgh

    taidgh Well-Known Member

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    On point one, I suppose it depends on whether one sees Spurs as a sort of stand-alone club, or more as a representative and component of English football. Without getting into the importance of "Britishness" in English teams, some might ask if it's the responsibility of Spurs (or whichever club) to contribute to the England setup. Signing Arp must be, in my view, looked at from the perspective of 'Is he better than what we have now?' While it might be ideal to develop local or just domestic talent, Spurs can't afford to invest the time on those players if more talented or impactful foreign players can push us on. This is the way of modern football for teams at the top.

    On point two, most agree that Harrison has only a small chance to become a part of the first team squad here. Griffiths is regarded as the better prospect, but as you say, Arp is probably better. I suppose there is the bigger problem of will either get the amount of game time to be able to prove their quality. For me, Premiership clubs in the top 4-6 don't really have the luxury of playing youth enough to see if they will make it. Players like Kane, Winks and KWP have proved themselves on the training pitch before being given minutes with the first team. But other young players like Rose, Walker, Alli, etc were top prospects poached from other teams/leagues. This is what I don't get about this argument. It seems that it's OK to snap up domestic talent, but not foreign. For me, the same way we brought in Parrot aged 15, Arp aged 18, if deemed better than what we have now, would be a signing that improves the club.

    I know I have conflated several arguments here, forgive me as I try to tie it all together. In an ideal world, we could give significant game time to upcoming youth prospects. But with where Spurs is now, those opportunities are few and far between. Is it harsh on prospects like TOB, Skipp, BLF and others? Yes. Should we loan more players out? Probably, yes. But the reality is, players who have proven themselves on big stages will always be valued more highly than untested youth. GNK was playing 1st division French football. Maybe people will argue that the French league is a low standard, but when GNK was signed, he was playing at a higher standard in a higher league than Oduwa was. The club is looking for the best player available who can contribute. Sometimes that gamble doesn't work out. First N'jie and now GNK seem to have been bad investments. But better investments have been players like Dier and Sanchez. It would be churlish to insist that CCV or Velks would have been better or even just as good. Players are brought in based on potential. Some work out, others don't. That is what football is like in the modern era, with the PL being as rich as it is, and Spurs being placed as we are.

    As for the England U17 group, Foden, Sancho and even Brewster have been lauded for their quality or productivity. It will be interesting to see how the new crop of youth decides their future. It seems there has been the start of a shift out of U18 and reserve PL squads and towards first-team chances abroad. It seems inevitable that as these players succeed abroad, they will be bought up by PL teams at ridiculous prices.
     
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  11. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I agree with some of the points you make. For example, I don't believe clubs have any obligation to develop players for the benefit of the national team. I also believe there are often occasions when a purchased option is superior.

    I am not at all averse to us making signings, I advocate them often, and nationality should make no difference whatsoever IMO, each signing judged on it's own individual merits. Football ability, intelligence, character, age, potential etc etc.

    But what some of us question is some of the preconceived notions that many seem to take for granted. That having pots of money to spend automatically means that the best solution is always to spend that money, and secondly, that the experienced option is always less risk.

    To use Njie for example, as you mentioned him, he had had 15 appearances (not all starts either I don't think) in Ligue 1. We had here a player in Pritchard who's started about 30 odd games for Brentford at the top of the Championship and excelled. One will need to settle in a new country and culture, learn the language of the training ground, the style of the team, the ethos of the coach, one won't. One has a set of skills we know would fit our philosophy, one is a completely different type of player who may or may not fit that philosophy. Who is the greater risk ?

    This season there is another cracking example in KWP/Aurier. KWP has been training with the first team for over a year, has excelled at youth/youth international level, starts his first game and gets MOTM (generously, but the kid still proved he was good enough for everyone to trust him to move forward as back up at least) and what do we do ? We spend 25m (plus 6/7 m wages) on a proven international from one of Europe's top clubs who comes in and has so far been sent off (costing us two goals), given a penalty away (goal), had a nightmare against Palace, and one decent game at LB. He hasn't been great offensively either, wasting most opportunities in forward positions in most games.

    Would KWP have been any worse than this ? Would he have been more risk? Surely not. Would he have been less productive going forward ? Unlikely. Would he take more time to assimilate into our way of playing or understanding the tactical philosophy of the coach? Highly unlikely as he's been training with this team for over a year ? Would he need to settle, learn the language of his team mates and coach ? No. Will KWP be more likely to cause problems if he's not getting enough game time ? No.

    But the most important criteria for me is this. Do we think that KWP could one day (in the not very distant future) be more use to our team than Aurier? If the answer is yes, then the club needs to drastically re-asses it's risk assessment policy IMO.

    Aurier's footballing flaws have been there for all to see his whole career. It's why he didn't hold down a regular place at a top club. This isn't hindsight. So if we know there are short term issues, and we think KWP may represent the better long term risk, is the purchase of Aurier for 25m the less risky option ?

    Another example is spending 30m on Sissoko to end up playing in a CM3 when we have packed off Onomah on loan, and even could have played KWP or even TOB in such a role and again, would they have possibly been any less effective than Sissoko ?

    This won't always be the case. I fully understand that. I have suggested signing many players, and still do. This is all about a case by case basis. I know that the vast majority of our academy graduates won't be ultimately good enough to even warrant any kind of chance, let alone starts. But I also know that a high percentage of our signings won't ultimately be good enough either. And I also believe strongly that the risk assessment discrepancy between purchase (of all nationalities and experience) and promote is incorrectly skewed far too heavily toward "purchase".
     
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  12. spursfan77

    spursfan77 Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering the other day what had happened to Embolo. I know he had a bad injury but I wasn't sure if he was back and meant to look it up. He did look good for Basel. Hopefully he can get back and surpass that level.
     
  13. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe it is our responsibility but at the same time surely it is all English clubs responsibility from the fans tot he owners. Otherwsie they can't then go on to complain about the state of English football if they are not willing to give English players a chance themselves. And this was a bit of the debate that was had about whether the perception of fans have changed since the summer. I say no not really. We have that unprecedented success, everyone was filled with joy and said now these players must get a chance but 80% of fans don't actually want that to happen, or don't actually want to take the risks (which are minimal in my eyes) to make that happen.

    I don't understand the hypocrisy in fans complaining about a lack of talent and depth in the English national sides, but when we have literally the best young players in the world, fans are happy to sign players from abroad to block their pathway. You can't have it both ways. People say you can't just give young players what they want, but other countries will actively say they provide pathways for their 'lesser players', but we believe that our better players for some reason need more motivation and competition to prove themselves to get into our leagues.

    So I don't believe clubs have the responsibility but then I don't want to hear fans complain about the national side, or complain when Southgate decides to take on the responsibility of giving youth a chance. You already hear complaints from fans that they aren't experienced enough or haven't earned their chance, despite them earning it in their respective tournaments. Where else can they earn that chance, if PL managers universally believe they can never be ready for top level football despite all evidence saying otherwise. So I applaud Southgate for showing balls in this instance. I knwo they are only friendlies but he's given exposure to RLC and if it means he gets a chance at Chelsea then well done to him. To think they bought Drinkwater instead of giving him a chance.

    Re: Arp, I'm not necessarily against the signing of talented young players, but 3 games ago, no one would have considered signing him, yet he still had an excellent youth record. He is being sought out now purely because his club gave him a chance and he has somewhat taken it. No one knows if this will continue or is fortune, it's just an impulsive reaction. Our strikers are also talented but will not get that chance he got. If Harrison took that chance at Liverpool people wouldn't care about trying to sign Arp. Harrison wouldn't necessarily go on to be gun, but why all of a sudden is Arp deemed as being the lesser risk.I just believe that when a player suddenly comes on the scene he gets bought and unnecessarily blocks the path of another player, due to a kneejerk reaction. I mean to think Chelsea are after him when they have Hudson-Odoi is stupid.

    The only reason they don't have that luxury isn't because of the quality of the league it's because managers fear the repercussion from fans and owners if the team do badly if they do play, as the young player will be the apparent reason and not the 10 other men on the team. However, there is no evidence especially in recent years to suggest this is the case. Not one young person, whether brought through gradually or thrown in due to injuries has let any manager down in fact they have performed above expectation and impressed. I would like for anyone to mention one academy player given a chance in last couple of years who has done poorly and if you do I can name more bought players who have done worse for the same team.

    As said before I'm not really against signing players at all, where we don't have strength ourselves. All the players you mentioned filled a role we didn't have, except Walker. We had Smith who despite not getting his chance here and having the disruption of loans and eventually settling at new clubs, finds himself in the PL and probably England's 3rd choice RB. I didn't have a problem signing Azzaoui, I just don't get why we need to sign Arp when we have the arguably 3rd best striker in his England age group. Why not try and develop them and see if any of them rather than just looking short term

    Just because someone is playing at a higher standard that does not make a player better than someone playing at a lower standard. It is this assumption which affects England and youth football. Those players were also not playing at a high standard. They were relatively unknown signings. Just because someone isn't being given a chance in the PL that does not mean they are not good enough for the PL or better than those playing in Ligue 1. When academy players are depending on getting a chance in the least forgiving league due to money, it is wrong to assume that they just aren't good enough. I have been saying Winks is ready for the PL, one minutes he isn't, then after 3 starts some people starting saying he was better than Dembele, now he has played twice against Madrid and called up for England. He hasn't suddenly gained this ability in 6 matches, which with 0 experience he showed he was already at that level. If he didn't play those people would be saying he still isn't good enough for the PL. RLC has played 10 games for Palace and had no loans, I have been saying he is one of England's best CMs he's barely had any experience and suddenly people think he should be going to the World Cup. I do too, but do you think that this sudden ability has come from him playing at Palace. Heck people don't even think his performances at Palace should have earned him a call up, but Southgate and others have watched him for the last 3/4 years at u21s and are more than aware he is good enough for that level. We sold Livermore as he wasn't good enough for us, and everyone who had seen him play would say Onomah is twice the player Livermore is. Livermore hasn't gotten any better since leaving us, just more 'experienced' and he is still being chosen fro England as he had a good education for us. Onomah could also play at that level, but as he isn't being thrown up front at Villa apparently he isn't good enough.

    According to you and what most fans say, if right now, the whole of the German team that went to the u17 World Cup got games for their clubs this season, and it took another 2 years before the English players made appearances for their clubs people would say that the German players are better. If Sancho was still at City or even come here, does anyone believe he would have featured in the PL yet, of course not, but he has in the Bundesliga so people's opinions change.

    Sanchez isn't on the N'Jie/N'Koudou level the guy went to the EL final and had everyone watching him and built up hype, you could barely find youtube videos of the other two which tells you what standard they are. As a club if we can't compete with the bug boys I'd rather go with our players or try and poach City or Chelsea's players than players struggling to make an impact in Ligue 1 as I'm confident they'll be better. It also isn't churlish to suggest that Veljkovic would have been just as good, when he's 2 years younger than Dier, playing in the Bundesliga, and being called a 'genius' by Bremen fans, despite having to make the setback of moving to another clubs u23s having only had 6 professional matches. He is now likely going to the World Cup with Serbia. Had he stayed where would he be. I wouldn't put CCV on that level but I would argue why sign Foyth? One u20 World Cup defender replaces another. CCV criticised for not being able to deal with Akinfewa and having to go on loan while Foyth being excused for keeping a West Ham player onside, as development.

    I find it funny that in the thread about what other fans are saying, our fans will quote and take the mick out of fans that say 'we need to spend this and buy that player'. Then our fans laugh and say 'maybe they don't realise it's about developing players and not just spending money' but ironically that is exactly what all our fans want us to do, and the only reason we can laugh is because we didn't spend the money against most fans desire. I love Poch's ability to coach and develop players I just wish he'd do it more with our own.

    I hope most of them do move abroad especially those at City and Chelsea and part of me wishes Edwards and Onomah left too. As you say City and Chelsea won't care as they can just buy them back, so if it doesn't affect the clubs at least it will benefit England.

    It's not an easy situation and I don't believe every academy player will make it but I believe the success rate will be better than the success rate of buying players in terms of how much they contribute to the team, let alone the amount of money we'd make/save.
     
  14. edson

    edson Well-Known Member

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  15. Blake Griffin

    Blake Griffin Well-Known Member

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  16. IGSpur

    IGSpur Well-Known Member

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    Academies have been doing amazing work and now are completely dominant at youth level.

    In the Top 6 there are a few regular 96 born players.

    Winks, Iwobi and Christensen are 3 players that play for the first team of the club they were developed at however only 2 can play for England

    Alli was bought from a football league team and Sane was bought from abroad.

    RLC is another playing regularly in the PL who came through a Top 6 club but is on loan.

    96 is a key age group, as imo other than the 93 age group which won the Euro u17s, I feel that the 96s are the first quality age group entering into adult football and have just outgrown what would have been u21 club football before the rule changes and should now be integrated into adult football.

    Now we can see how these guys come through. The whole world can see that these guys are better than their contemporaries so when the 96s are 26, we should be seeing more of the academy players playing for the Top 6, I don't want to see us buying players from other countries from this age and people saying it's because they're better than our own. There is no excuse. These players are better than other countries players, so if players from Germany, France, Ivory Coast what have you are good enough for the PL, then ours should be especially when you take into account the fact they are settled in this country and are already being trained under the current clubs tactics. There are no excuses. None of this, they're not ready nonsense, look at the table above and give me a sufficient reason why we don't see more academy players in the PL and Top 6 than we do now.

    The only reason I'll accept is if they are playing in the Bundesliga or La Liga but again why would they be playing there while Spanish and German players are playing here. Finger crossed
     

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