Hillsborough inquests

[dontcallme]

As is so often the case, the bigger issue was the shameful attempts by SY Police and Duckenfield to cover their tracks at the original Hillsborough enquiry. This specific court case was all about Duckenfield's perceived criminal responsible for the unlawful deaths, rather than his deceit and obfuscation at the original Hillsborough enquiry. He is clearly a deeply loathesome individual, but that isn't what this court case was addressing.

I watched a really good documentary on Hillsborough, made by ESPN if I remember rightly.

Duckenfield was brought in at late notice. He had no experience or skills for policing such an event.

He was completely out of his depth and once his disastrous decisions resulted in deaths he quickly turned to lying and setting up the fans as the guilty ones.

 

[Spurger King]

To be fair to SK he’s not blaming the legitimate ticket holders who died but there should be recognition that there were a hell of a lot of fans without tickets who forced their way into the ground causing the crush.

This was a common thing at the time as they didn’t have anywhere near the same level of policing or H&S regulations as we do now. You just need to look back at some of the coverage and it’s shocking the risks some fans would take to get in without a ticket.

As an example 3 years earlier at Wembley


it was a tragedy and should never have happened but there’s no way the blame can or should be placed solely on his head as there were far too many factors involved

Thanks, and of course I’m not blaming ticket holders.

I’m partially blaming the fans outside the stadium who ignored police on horseback shouting through megaphones that fellow fans were being crushed inside. Fans ignored them. That’s literally what happened.

If people read the reports they’ll see a hell of a lot worse than that. Ambulances on the pitch being stripped of medical supplies (drugs), and even Liverpool fans deliberately blocking ambulances trying to get to the pitch. It’s all in the report, and still is because it hasn’t been refuted. Ever.

I don’t question for one second that the majority of the blame falls on the authorities and stadium designers. I watched it live on TV and it was horrific. But I will never agree to the view that some Liverpool fans didn’t contributed to the chaos that day. Some absolutely did, and it’s documented and available to read for yourselves.

Read the whole report, especially the section where a policeman on horseback is telling the fans flooding into the stadium that other fans are being crushed to death, and tell me they aren’t partly responsible for ignoring that message.

 

[dontcallme]

Thanks, and of course I’m not blaming ticket holders.

I’m partially blaming the fans outside the stadium who ignored police on horseback shouting through megaphones that fellow fans were being crushed inside. Fans ignored them. That’s literally what happened.

If people read the reports they’ll see a hell of a lot worse than that. Ambulances on the pitch being stripped of medical supplies (drugs), and even Liverpool fans deliberately blocking ambulances trying to get to the pitch. It’s all in the report, and still is because it hasn’t been refuted. Ever.

I don’t question for one second that the majority of the blame falls on the authorities and stadium designers. I watched it live on TV and it was horrific. But I will never agree to the view that some Liverpool fans didn’t contributed to the chaos that day. Some absolutely did, and it’s documented and available to read for yourselves.

Read the whole report, especially the section where a policeman on horseback is telling the fans flooding into the stadium that other fans are being crushed to death, and tell me they aren’t partly responsible for ignoring that message.

The 2012 report? Happy to do so though it will take me a while.

First part of the summary "The disclosed documents show that multiple factors were responsible for the deaths of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough tragedy and that the fans were not the cause of the disaster."

 

[dontcallme]

Will update and quote important parts of the report as I go.

"Despite CCTV cameras transmitting images of distress in the crowd to the Ground Control Room and to the Police Control Box, and the presence of officers on duty on the perimeter track, it was a while before the seriousness of what was happening was realised and rescue attempts were made."

 

[dontcallme]

"It is evident from the documents disclosed to the Panel that the safety of the crowd admitted to the terrace was compromised at every level: access to the turnstiles from the public highway; the condition and adequacy of the turnstiles; the management of the crowd by SYP and the SWFC stewards; alterations to the terrace, particularly the construction of pens; the condition and placement of crush barriers; access to the central pens via a tunnel descending at a 1 in 6 gradient; emergency egress from the pens via small gates in the perimeter fence; and lack of precise monitoring of crowd capacity within the pens.

These deficiencies were well known and further overcrowding problems at the turnstiles in 1987 and on the terrace in 1988 were additional indications of the inherent dangers to crowd safety. The risks were known and the crush in 1989 was foreseeable."

 

[dontcallme]

"The decision by SYP senior management to replace an experienced match commander just 21 days before the match is without explanation in the disclosed documents."

I can explain the above. The original commander was very experienced at overseeing huge football events. His force was going through a scandal and although it wasn't directly his fault he was either suspended or taken off major duties

 

[dontcallme]

"The documents disclosed to the Panel, however, reveal that the flaws in responding to the emerging crisis on the day were rooted in institutional tension within and between organisations. This was reflected in: a policing and stewarding mindset predominantly concerned with crowd disorder; the failure to realise the consequences of opening exit gates to relieve congestion at the turnstiles; the failure to manage the crowd’s entry and allocation between the pens; the failure to anticipate the consequences within the central pens of not sealing the tunnel; the delay in realising that the crisis in the central pens was a consequence of overcrowding rather than crowd disorder."

 

[dontcallme]

"Disclosed documents show that police officers, particularly senior officers, interpreted crowd unrest in the Leppings Lane terrace central pens as a sign of potential disorder, and consequently were slow to realise that spectators were being crushed, injured and killed."

"The disclosed documents show clear and repeated evidence of failures in leadership and emergency response coordination. While this is understandable in the immediate moments of an overwhelming disaster, it was a situation that persisted for at least 45 minutes after injured spectators were released from the pens."

"There was a lack of basic necessary equipment where it was most needed, including airways, suction and swabs. While this equipment was provided on front-line ambulances, it remained in vehicles outside the stadium as crews were unaware of what was required on the pitch."

"The absence of leadership, coordination, systematic triage and basic equipment was also evident in the gymnasium, the designated casualty reception point. Statements and ambulance control transcripts reveal that opportunities for senior officers to exercise control were missed for almost an hour, and conditions remained chaotic."

 

[dontcallme]

"The idea that alcohol contributed to the disaster was raised at an early stage, and has proved remarkably durable despite being dismissed by the Taylor Report. The disclosed documents confirm the repeated attempts that were made to find supporting evidence for this.

They also show that available evidence was significantly misinterpreted, including an attempt to establish a link between later arrival and drunkenness that was fundamentally flawed.

The weight placed on alcohol in the face of objective evidence of a pattern of consumption modest for a leisure event was inappropriate. It has since fuelled persistent and unsustainable assertions about drunken fan behaviour."

 

[dontcallme]

"The WMP team served the criminal investigation, the Taylor Inquiry and the Coroner’s inquiry and inquest. Thus multiple investigations proceeded in parallel. It is evident from the disclosed documents that from the outset SYP sought to establish a case emphasising exceptional levels of drunkenness and aggression among Liverpool fans, alleging that many arrived at the stadium late, without tickets and determined to force entry.

A less well-known investigation was conducted by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), and found that restricted access, poor condition and inadequate means of escape rendered the Leppings Lane terrace – particularly its central pens – structurally unsafe. This risk was known."

 

[dontcallme]

"The documents disclosed to the Panel show that SYP sought to avoid any admission of liability in the settlement of compensation claims and in contribution proceedings against other organisations. SYP officers who claimed compensation were pressured within the Force to withdraw their claims."

 

[dontcallme]

I’m partially blaming the fans outside the stadium who ignored police on horseback shouting through megaphones that fellow fans were being crushed inside. Fans ignored them. That’s literally what happened.

Am part of the way through the report.

So far the report has revealed the fans were not the cause of any deaths.

The report also states that by the time the police and emergency services realised a crush was happening and people were in distress it was too late.

This appears to contradict your assertion but I will keep on reading.

Edit: just done a search through the word horse, ignore and megaphone. No mention of fans ignoring police warnings. Though it does state:

"Even before the match kicked off, spectators in the central pens protested that they were being crushed intolerably, shouting to the police officers on the perimeter to recognise what was happening and open the small gates in the perimeter fence. They were ignored or told to be quiet."

Seriously, what report did you read?

 

[dontcallme]

"Eight years after the disaster it was revealed publicly for the first time that statements made by SYP officers were initially handwritten as ‘recollections’, then subjected to a process of ‘review and alteration’ involving SYP solicitors and a team of SYP officers. In a number of cases police officers were asked to reconsider and amend their initial statements before they were forwarded to the Taylor Inquiry.

The documents disclosed to the Panel show that there was confusion concerning the status of the recollections, the rationale behind their review and alteration, the extent of the amendments and officers’ acceptance of the process. While Lord Justice Stuart-Smith raised concerns about the appropriateness of the process, he considered there was no malpractice involved."

 

[dontcallme]

Going to play football now, Will continue the report tomorrow. Thus far the findings show fans were not to blame and a number of people in charge most notably the police and emergency services were inadequate and communicated very poorly.

 

['O Zio]

Thanks, and of course I’m not blaming ticket holders.

I’m partially blaming the fans outside the stadium who ignored police on horseback shouting through megaphones that fellow fans were being crushed inside. Fans ignored them. That’s literally what happened.

If people read the reports they’ll see a hell of a lot worse than that. Ambulances on the pitch being stripped of medical supplies (drugs), and even Liverpool fans deliberately blocking ambulances trying to get to the pitch. It’s all in the report, and still is because it hasn’t been refuted. Ever.

I don’t question for one second that the majority of the blame falls on the authorities and stadium designers. I watched it live on TV and it was horrific. But I will never agree to the view that some Liverpool fans didn’t contributed to the chaos that day. Some absolutely did, and it’s documented and available to read for yourselves.

Read the whole report, especially the section where a policeman on horseback is telling the fans flooding into the stadium that other fans are being crushed to death, and tell me they aren’t partly responsible for ignoring that message.

I think you're mixing up the independent report and the "recollections" by the police that were heavily doctored in a deliberate attempt by the police (in cooperation with the Sun) to smear the Liverpool fans and pass the blame onto them instead of taking responsibility. The independent report found that no Liverpool fans were in any way responsible for what happened. Regarding people being drunk as playing a factor, they found that "the weight placed on alcohol in the face of objective evidence of a pattern of consumption modest for a leisure event was inappropriate. It has since fuelled persistent and unsustainable assertions about drunken fan behaviour."

The stuff about people urinating on police and knicking stuff from ambulances etc. has been disproven countless times already as being complete bullshit made up by The Sun so can we please put that nonsense to bed. Even fucking MacKenzie has admitted it was not true:
"...these allegations were wholly untrue and were part of a concerted plot by police officers to discredit the supporters thereby shifting the blame for the tragedy from themselves. It has taken more than two decades, 400,000 documents and a two-year inquiry to discover to my horror that it would have been far more accurate had I written the headline The Lies rather than The Truth. I published in good faith and I am sorry that it was so wrong."


I think posts like yours just go to show the damage that this whole thing has done. Even now after it's been shown time and time again to have been a completely fictional smear campaign by the Sun and the SYP, there are still loads of people who think that the stuff in those articles actually happened

 

[dontcallme]

I think you're mixing up the independent report and the "recollections" by the police that were heavily doctored in a deliberate attempt by the police (in cooperation with the Sun) to smear the Liverpool fans and pass the blame onto them instead of taking responsibility. The independent report found that no Liverpool fans were in any way responsible for what happened. Regarding people being drunk as playing a factor, they found that "the weight placed on alcohol in the face of objective evidence of a pattern of consumption modest for a leisure event was inappropriate. It has since fuelled persistent and unsustainable assertions about drunken fan behaviour."

The stuff about people urinating on police and knicking stuff from ambulances etc. has been disproven countless times already as being complete bullshit made up by The Sun so can we please put that nonsense to bed. Even fucking MacKenzie has admitted it was not true:
"...these allegations were wholly untrue and were part of a concerted plot by police officers to discredit the supporters thereby shifting the blame for the tragedy from themselves. It has taken more than two decades, 400,000 documents and a two-year inquiry to discover to my horror that it would have been far more accurate had I written the headline The Lies rather than The Truth. I published in good faith and I am sorry that it was so wrong."


I think posts like yours just go to show the damage that this whole thing has done. Even now after it's been shown time and time again to have been a completely fictional smear campaign by the Sun and the SYP, there are still loads of people who think that the stuff in those articles actually happened

Exactly. Just read the 2012 report and nothing Spurger King said about the Liverpool fans' actions was in there.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Not sure where to put this ?
.

A statement from the family of Andrew Devine

It is with great sadness and a sense of immense loss that we can confirm that Andrew Devine passed away yesterday at the premature age of 55.

www.liverpoolfc.com

 

[JimmyG2]

I think you're mixing up the independent report and the "recollections" by the police that were heavily doctored in a deliberate attempt by the police (in cooperation with the Sun) to smear the Liverpool fans and pass the blame onto them instead of taking responsibility. The independent report found that no Liverpool fans were in any way responsible for what happened. Regarding people being drunk as playing a factor, they found that "the weight placed on alcohol in the face of objective evidence of a pattern of consumption modest for a leisure event was inappropriate. It has since fuelled persistent and unsustainable assertions about drunken fan behaviour."

The stuff about people urinating on police and knicking stuff from ambulances etc. has been disproven countless times already as being complete bullshit made up by The Sun so can we please put that nonsense to bed. Even fucking MacKenzie has admitted it was not true:
"...these allegations were wholly untrue and were part of a concerted plot by police officers to discredit the supporters thereby shifting the blame for the tragedy from themselves. It has taken more than two decades, 400,000 documents and a two-year inquiry to discover to my horror that it would have been far more accurate had I written the headline The Lies rather than The Truth. I published in good faith and I am sorry that it was so wrong."


I think posts like yours just go to show the damage that this whole thing has done. Even now after it's been shown time and time again to have been a completely fictional smear campaign by the Sun and the SYP, there are still loads of people who think that the stuff in those articles actually happened

''After 32 years of establishment lies, media smears, inquests, trials and retrials, the families of the Hillsborough dead have yet to see anyone held accountable''
by David Conn who has followed the case and the families since 1996

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...gh-families-were-failed-by-the-justice-system

 

[Spurslove]

''After 32 years of establishment lies, media smears, inquests, trials and retrials, the families of the Hillsborough dead have yet to see anyone held accountable''
by David Conn who has followed the case and the families since 1996

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...gh-families-were-failed-by-the-justice-system

I heard a while back that 'The Sun' ever since all the carefully and wilfully constructed lies were confirmed, has sold virtually no copies in Liverpool. Oh please God, let that be true.

The fact that that not one person has been held accountable is an embarrassment and an insult to our judicial system.

.

 

[dontcallme]

I heard a while back that 'The Sun' ever since all the carefully and wilfully constructed lies were confirmed, has sold virtually no copies in Liverpool. Oh please God, let that be true.

The fact that that not one person has been held accountable is an embarrassment and an insult to our judicial system.

.

The Sun will forever be dirt in Liverpool, as it should be everywhere. Rooney did a big interview with the Sun and the people really turned against him.

The boxer O'Hara Davies tried to be controversial by taunting boxer Tommy Coyle by Tweeting #buyTheSun and declaring it his favourite newspaper. He got pulled off the event and has struggled to find fights since.