Jermaine Jenas

[joey55]

Until we know the make-up of our squad come the start of next season this is all academic. However, our FBs are likely to be very attack-minded (Hutton, Gunter, Bale, Gilberto), and Ramos is known for using the flanks to attack at speed which means there has to be some protection in the centre.

Ramos is a far more attacking coach than Benitez - but Rafa has played that kind of 4-4-2, with a passer next to a destroyer, for years so it does count as an example.

I also don't think we can entirely dismiss the examples of a 4-4-2 featuring Poulsen alongside Maresca or Keita as that Sevilla side was coached by Senor Ramos.

But this suggests that you think Ramos would consider playing Modric in a deeper sitting midfield pairing (like Scholes and Carrick). I can't believe we'd pay £16.5 million for one of Europe's brightest young attacking play makers and play him like that. He's being compared to Kaka, not Alonso or Baraja etc.

 

[yanno]

But this suggests that you think Ramos would consider playing Modric in a deeper sitting midfield pairing (like Scholes and Carrick). I can't believe we'd pay £16.5 million for one of Europe's brightest young attacking play makers and play him like that.

Balague, (see other thread) has suggested that Juande is considering switching to a 4-2-3-1 with Modric as the ACM in the 3. In that formation, Modric would play like Diego at Werder. But we could only accommodate one of Berba, Keano & Bent, unless we stuck Robbie out wide which I've never been a fan of.

Dan Ashcroft thinks Modric will be played at LM, outside a new DM and a box-to-box CM. I and many others have politely disagreed with him, in my case because I think the team's best passer should be played centrally so he can make full use of his vision and passing ability. Modric is tenacious and, like Carrick, can protect his defence through good positioning. However, if Ramos wants to play the likes of Lennon and Dos Santos as wide midfielders, with Keane & Berba upfront, then I do think Luka would benefit from having a strong DM alongside him.

Juande's first choice CM last season appeared to be JJ next to Zokora. Modric is a much better creative passer than either of those two, and will spot the runs of pacy players like Dos Santos and Lennon, and the movement of Berba and Keano early. He also has the ability to play them in.

Personally, I'd like Modric to be our Fabregas, and I don't think Wenger would play a box-to-box CM alongside Fabregas.

 

[joey55]

Balague, (see other thread) has suggested that Juande is considering switching to a 4-2-3-1 with Modric as the ACM in the 3. In that formation, Modric would play like Diego at Werder. But we could only accommodate one of Berba, Keano & Bent, unless we stuck Robbie out wide which I've never been a fan of.

Dan Ashcroft thinks Modric will be played at LM, outside a new DM and a box-to-box CM. I and many others have politely disagreed with him, in my case because I think the team's best passer should be played centrally so he can make full use of his vision and passing ability. Modric is tenacious and, like Carrick, can protect his defence through good positioning. However, if Ramos wants to play the likes of Lennon and Dos Santos as wide midfielders, with Keane & Berba upfront, then I do think Luka would benefit from having a strong DM alongside him.

Juande's first choice CM last season appeared to be JJ next to Zokora. Modric is a much better creative passer than either of those two, and will spot the runs of pacy players like Dos Santos and Lennon, and the movement of Berba and Keano early. He also has the ability to play them in.

Personally, I'd like Modric to be our Fabregas, and I don't think Wenger would play a box-to-box CM alongside Fabregas.

But my issue with that is Fabregas is a far more physical player. For example, Fabregas made more tackes this season than Flamini, who has been dubbed the new Gatusso. Fabregas has the legs to get up and down the pitch. I really can't see Modric being anywhere physical enough to play like Fabregas. Does Modric realistically have the legs to get up and down the pitch like Fabregas? I really can't imagine it. Obviously we won't know until the start of the season, but barring injuries, no matter who we bring in, if we play 442, with Modric in the middle, then I'm certain JJ will play next to him. I'd be amazed if he plays in the way Scholes does now (as I think you are suggesting). I'm sure he'll play how Scholes did when he and Keane were in their pomp (with JJ playing the Keane role).

 

[yanno]

But my issue with that is Fabregas is a far more physical player. For example, Fabregas made more tackes this season than Flamini, who has been dubbed the new Gatusso. Fabregas has the legs to get up and down the pitch. I really can't see Modric being anywhere physical enough to play like Fabregas. Does Modric realistically have the legs to get up and down the pitch like Fabregas? I really can't imagine it. Obviously we won't know until the start of the season, but barring injuries, no matter who we bring in, if we play 442, with Modric in the middle, then I'm certain JJ will play next to him. I'd be amazed if he plays in the way Scholes does now (as I think you are suggesting). I'm sure he'll play how Scholes did when he and Keane were in their pomp (with JJ playing the Keane role).

Interesting comments. I do think you're underestimating Modric's strength and stamina as compared with that of Fabregas.

I also suspect we both want Luka to play centrally, the debate being about the type of player to pair him with. JJ could try to play the pre-injury Keane role you're talking about but, if we have attacking wide midfielders like Lennon and Dos Santos, that would be an incredibly brave call by Ramos.

My own instinct is that we'll sign a strong defensively-minded CM, ideally a leader, and this will give Modric the protection to make forward runs on occasion. In other words, Modric will play like Keita did in the Sevilla 4-4-2.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

Modric is better defensively than Fabregas imo, he is actually a good tackler, much better than Scholes for example, also Modric covers a lot of ground.

All we need next to him is a strong, mobile player who can give Luka license to roam.

 

[joey55]

Interesting comments. I do think you're underestimating Modric's strength and stamina as compared with that of Fabregas.

I also suspect we both want Luka to play centrally, the debate being about the type of player to pair him with. JJ could try to play the pre-injury Keane role you're talking about but, if we have attacking wide midfielders like Lennon and Dos Santos, that would be an incredibly brave call by Ramos.

My own instinct is that we'll sign a strong defensively-minded CM, ideally a leader, and this will give Modric the protection to make forward runs on occasion. In other words, Modric will play like Keita did in the Sevilla 4-4-2.

I don't think it's a stamina issue. I don't think his size has any bearing on that. When i used the words legs, i meant in terms of abilty to drive up and down the pitch as JJ does. If we play a holding palyer next to Modric, then I think we'll lack that in midfield and that's why i used the examples i did. I can't think if a Moric type that hasn't played with a box to box player. Obviously you have different ideas about how we'll play Modric and only time will tell. I shouldn't have mentioned Fabregas box to box running thoug, as I don't actually see it as a major part of his game. I see him a more general midifeld player who can attack and defend.

 

[worcestersauce]

I think Modric could manage to pass the ball 5 yards sideways so that's 80% of what fabregas has to do but will we get the constant movement from our players to give him the easy option all the time?

I hope not I may be old fashioned but I like to see palyers take men on and beat them from time to time.

I know I am partizan but I am afraid I don't agree with the view that fabregas is world class, I am with the Spanish national team coach on that one, and I don't agree that Modric resembles him. It may be the way that Croatia play but in the games I have seen Modrich has played far more passes forward either straight or diagonal than fabregas ever does and I've even seen him take a man on and go round him in the middle and on the wing, I just don't ever see fabregas do these things.

One more thing, when a midfielder is a playmaker there is a perception that he needs protecting, that is a hard man beside him but I getthe impression Luka can look after himself.

I am willing to be corrected on all these things but on the evidence of my own eyes that's how I see it.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It's a really interesting debate this one. And every time it gets raised I can't help but remind myself of my response to Yanno in December when I was adamant we should be after Modric and Yanno asked where would I play him. I replied "with a player of Modric's quality I would buy first and then worry about where I was going to play him". I can't help but wonder if this is exactly how it was or if Ramos has an exact gameplan for Modric. Truth is, as we have seen for Croatia (and Zagreb), Modric can play in a veriety ways. Principally:

1. Centrally in a "5" (or any of the variations thereof)
2. Wide (left or right)
3. Centrally in a "4" with a worker bee next to him.

Centrally in a 4 means the wide players cannot be too flouncy either. So if for example Bale & Malbranque were the wide men, and Zokora/Jenas was his partner in midfield you could probably get away with it. Or buy an even better DM play one grafting wide man and one more creative (Bale+DM+Modric+Lennon or Santos+DM+Modric+Malbranque).

So far I think my favourite way of employing Modric that I have seen is centrally in a 5 (callit how you want 4-2-3-1 or 433). It gives him more freedom and a little less responsibility.

That's not to say that Modric is scared to tackle and when required positions himself well defensively. Just in my opinion he's better deployed in a less defensive role.

At the moment what we appear to have for the first time - what he is giving us - is true creative flexability. We can now play in a number of ways tinkering very slightly or changing formation completely.

As long as none of the above involve Keane playing in midfield I won't mind too much.

 

[yanno]

It's a really interesting debate this one. And every time it gets raised I can't help but remind myself of my response to Yanno in December when I was adamant we should be after Modric and Yanno asked where would I play him. I replied "with a player of Modric's quality I would buy first and then worry about where I was going to play him". I can't help but wonder if this is exactly how it was or if Ramos has an exact gameplan for Modric. Truth is, as we have seen for Croatia (and Zagreb), Modric can play in a veriety ways.

I think the Modric question and answer mentioned by B-C also applies to Gio Dos Santos. Sign him and then work out where to play him. Modric and Dos Santos both have excellent technique, and have been brought up on pass and move football (as Gio proved when he was outstanding as an out-and-out CM in Barca's last game of the season).

That said, I think Luka will play centrally, and Gio will mostly play wide where he can use his pace to get behind and beyond defenders (like Navas and Capel at Sevilla).

Now, given this is the JJ thread, I think Ramos has an interesting challenge with Jenas. JJ has decent tecnnique and passing ability, but not in the same class as either Luka or Gio. However, JJ has great stamina. Can this be used in a pressing role next to Luka? Or will Ramos risk using JJ as a box-to-box CM like the pre-injury Keane as Joey is suggesting?

 

[idlepete]

At the moment what we appear to have for the first time - what he is giving us - is true creative flexability. We can now play in a number of ways tinkering very slightly or changing formation completely.

That's what excites me most about the whole Modric deal. Ramos can get soooooo much out of this signing.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think Modric could manage to pass the ball 5 yards sideways so that's 80% of what fabregas has to do but will we get the constant movement from our players to give him the easy option all the time?

Very good question. I think we will over the next couple of windows need to keep strengthening in this area. In players like Berbatov and the new boys Modric, Santos hopefully we are improving. I am a firm believer in two simple mandates for playing good, successful football. Technique and movement off the ball. They are the key ingredients (of course that is an over simplification) but they are the basic ingredients of the football I think is both good to watch and successful.

It was why I was pleased to read what Ramos and Comolli said about Dos Santos:

For us it is an exciting signing because he has excellent quality, he operates well in different positions and, above all, is technically excellent."

Sporting Director Damien Comolli added: "Giovani possesses a great combination of physical power and explosivity, along with fine technical skills. He is someone who can create and score goals.

It's why Arsenal play such good football. The first things Wenger always looks for is technique, movement.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think the Modric question and answer mentioned by B-C also applies to Gio Dos Santos. Sign him and then work out where to play him. Modric and Dos Santos both have excellent technique, and have been brought up on pass and move football (as Gio proved when he was outstanding as an out-and-out CM in Barca's last game of the season).

That said, I think Luka will play centrally, and Gio will mostly play wide where he can use his pace to get behind and beyond defenders (like Navas and Capel at Sevilla).

Now, given this is the JJ thread, I think Ramos has an interesting challenge with Jenas. JJ has decent tecnnique and passing ability, but not in the same class as either Luka or Gio. However, JJ has great stamina. Can this be used in a pressing role next to Luka? Or will Ramos risk using JJ as a box-to-box CM like the pre-injury Keane as Joey is suggesting?

I hope Modric plays centrally mostly. And I'm really beginning to think that variations on the 5 man midfield are the way forward. It offers so many more permutations and suits the players we have. If we signed Villa to play next to Berbatov I may change my mind but that won't happen and I am more and more coming to the opinion that Keane can be as much a liability as an asset most games. Despite being a fan of 442, it is so difficult to carry off - the key being outstanding CM's. We have two good ones but not outstanding week in week out. Your wide men must also be skillfull but hard working. And your defence must be resoloute as well as the wing backs attacking. There are so many parts of the jigsaw that can let you down.

 

[ultimateloner]

Like any good player, Modric could play anywhere. He plays with both feet so he could play on either flank as well. Don' t see what the big fuss is about CM pairing etc...we don't need to accomodate our players. The players adjust depending on what the coach wants - that simple.

 

[rich75]

But my issue with that is Fabregas is a far more physical player. For example, Fabregas made more tackes this season than Flamini, who has been dubbed the new Gatusso.

just to bring this back onto the thread title, JJ is in fact probably our hardest tackling midfielder and still finds time to get up and down the pitch like nobodys business

 

[remember91]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I think we we should definately keep Jenas, he's been one of the best midfield players we have had over the last couple of seasons. I can see that both he and Modric will probably not play together in central midfield together at the same time, but both can also play wide, and we should also remember Lennon can also play on the left, so I can imagine some kind of positional rotation, depending on fitness, form and opposition. One of the problems we've had has been relying too much on Berbatov, Keane and Lennnon to create chances in games, the likes of Modric and Santos give us extra tactical options. I don't think we'll go for a 5 man midfield as this will not suit Keane, nor will it work with the style of play that Ramos has previously employed. But I can imagine Modric or Jenas playing wide roles that drift inside to give more manpower across the centre with Bale/Hutton providing the extra attacking width on the neccessary flanks.

e.g.
Robinson
Hutton Woodgate King Bale
Jenas Modric Zokora Lennon
Keane Berbatov

But as I said tactical conditions and the availability of other players will effect what balance Ramos desires in midfield. You might well find on an away day against some anti-football team in rainy Lancashire (e.g. Blackburn, Bolton etc), a very narrow midfield with Jenas and Modric on either flank, and Huddlestone and Zokora in the centre may be used to provide a little more muscle, although that tactic would be very Jol.

 

[spurs4europe]

Jenas plus Carrick = our best defensive record
Jenas plus Zokora = shocking defensive record.

JJ is our most underrated player IMO, the problem isnt him, its the other muppets that he is forced to play with week in week out in the midfield.

Zokora is average at best. Lennon is a playboy that seems to never improve, Malbranque works his nuts off but thats it (squad player at best next season), and the Hudd only moves out of the centre circle when he feels like it, so lets wait and see how he performs when he only has to do the work of ONE person instead of wiping Zokora's arse for 90 minutes shall we??

well that either means carrick carried jenas for a whole season, or zokora was just absolute rubbish.

i've always favoured JJ but the truth is probably somewhere in between. without a doubt, zokora being paired with jj has not helped jj by any means

 

[Locotoro]

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. I think that Jenas would be a very good player to use on the right hand side. He has all the attributes needed to play there, not especially a skilful winger but more a physical winger who wouldnt give a moments rest to the fullback and really come into his own in the last 20mins of a match

 

[Locotoro]

as competition for lennon of course

 

[spurs4europe]

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. I think that Jenas would be a very good player to use on the right hand side. He has all the attributes needed to play there, not especially a skilful winger but more a physical winger who wouldnt give a moments rest to the fullback and really come into his own in the last 20mins of a match

well at the very leas he should be kept as he is technically quite decent and can actually play in a few positions. i'm still betting on him to rise to the challenge and actually establish himself in next season's team

 

[stevenqoz]

Somehow I can't see Modric, Gio, Lennon Hutton and Bale in the same starting eleven. Ramos also seems to like Zokora ensuring that regardless of change last year I rarely remember him being dropped out of any of our sides. Of course we won't play 3 5 2 in the EPL but it would look very nice on paper....
-------------Keeper
--------------King
------Huddlestone Woodgate
Hutton------Zokora--------Bale
---------Modric--Jenas
---------Berbatov Gio
Obviously this line-up could only be used in the
parallel universe EPL where lateral thinking was allowed.