Juande Ramos - Tactical Genius?

[mendesstormer]

Have to say making changes early is def a positive from Ramos. I do think he has guts and love the all out for the win away from home.... keep serving it up Mr Ramos.

Fair points. I do agree that Ramos is putting out a much more positive message in his substitutions. Not sure the players are quite up to speed with it yet, but I guess most of the signs are good.

 

[DC_Boy]

Final question: did we really play that well in the first half? (to justify all the positive comments) i.e. did we create many clear chances?

To give my answer - we created two absolutely clear cut chances - the pen that was given (which was a pen - a lucky one agreed, but Neill was tugging JD back in the area - it's a foul - it's a pen) and for the pen that wasn't - also Daws goal was a clear cut chance -

the shot that led to Lennon's 'goal' was a chance (and incidentally how lucky were West Ham on that ofside - they didn't particulalry play for it - just got mrgianally lucky

there was Steed's chance - probably some others I've missed but away from at West Ham that's a fair few chances

 

[DC_Boy]

Final question: did we really play that well in the first half? (to justify all the positive comments) i.e. did we create many clear chances?

To give my answer - we created two absolutely clear cut chances - the pen that was given (which was a pen - a lucky one agreed, but Neill was tugging JD back in the area - it's a foul - it's a pen) and for the pen that wasn't - also Daws goal was a clear cut chance -

the shot that led to Lennon's 'goal' was a chance (and incidentally how lucky were West Ham on that offside - they didn't particularly play for it - just got marginally lucky

there was Steed's chance - probably some others I've missed but away at West Ham that's a fair few chances

 

[mendesstormer]

We did play well yesterday. We are west hams cup final. Yet they played like an away side, making it hard to create chances. They made chances on the break which is always easier and can create a false impression. We had 57% possession. They comitted 30+ fouls to our 8. We kept the ball well and actually did create some good chances that were spurned (Keane, Lennon disallowed, Berbatov, malbranque) West Ham had a couple of shots from outside the box and a header. We kept playing football despite being fouled once every 2.5 minutes and maintained our effort level for the full 93 minutes.

It was a good performance.

Fair enough. I guess most of those chances were in the first half, or else I really can't have been concentrating Possession at one point in the 2nd half was certainly way in WHam's favour, but obviously not over the course of the whole match if that 57% is right.

 

[Black]

your hyping ramos too much, we look the same as we did last year all over west ham and then they score, when he took Kaboul off for the next 10 mins the team looked confused

Lennon didn't know what to do Zokora and Chimbo looked to be in CB they seemed to be a big gap between the strike force and midfield, i feel he should have played Defoe in midfield and kept Berbs up front. it got too packed in midfield for him no good how his touch was it would have been better up front

 

[yanno]

My reading of yesterday's events is as follows. Our full backs, Chimbo and Bale, were pushing up so far that Dawson and Kaboul had no cover - as we saw when Kaboul made the mistake and both FBs were 40 yards up the pitch and in no position to recover. It was a mistake, but it needn't have led to such an easy Spammers' goal.

Then after the mistake, Kaboul's confidence was shot and Carlton Cole started bullying him. Ramos decided he had to: i) fix our defence rapidly; ii) do something about our flanks.

So, rather than hauling Kaboul off, putting Lee on at RB (which he can play in an emergency), and moving Chimbo to CB, Ramos showed he's both brave and tactically astute by changing the entire system. The key was playing Zokora as spare CB, able to cover both Dawson and Chimbo, and on occasion our youthful Wing Backs. Malbranque and Jenas pressed in midfield, and putting Berba in the hole was an attempt to get our most creative player more involved in the play.

Now, Ramos was brave but I think he was effectively firefighting. It's frankly shocking that Carlton Cole, a guy so unprofessional that he allegedly turned up for his Spurs' medical drunk, could terrorize our £8 million CB. And poor old Juande felt he had to resort playing with 3 CBs to combat a front line of Boa Morte and Cole.

As well as Zokora played as a spare CB, I think he's not good enough in the air and his positioning and reading of the game are too poor, for him to play as a proper CB. I don't think he could play alongside Dawson as a proper CB in a back four.

I also think there's a strong case for playing YPLee at LB, and Bale at LM. Bale is so good going forward that it's a waste playing him at LB - plus he was attacking so much from LB that we were frequently being left exposed at the back.

And Lennon as a RWB? He did well in an emergency, but if other EPL teams knew in advance that Lennon was playing at RWB, their gameplan would probably be to destroy us down that flank. I shudder to think what the likes of Bolton would do to us. It's only because Curbishley is so tactically inept - "I didn't know what formation Spurs were playing" is the one of the most embarrassing comments I've ever heard from a top-flight coach - that West Ham didn't take advantage.

So, the pluses are that Ramos showed he's courageous and tactically very astute. And that the team played with a lot of spirit and purpose. The negatives are that our CB situation is a complete mess, and Juande must be longing for the transfer window to open.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Fair enough. I guess most of those chances were in the first half, or else I really can't have been concentrating Possession at one point in the 2nd half was certainly way in WHam's favour, but obviously not over the course of the whole match if that 57% is right.

The only possession figure sky flashed up that I remember was when it was 67-33 in our favour at one point in the second half.

 

[mendesstormer]

The only possession figure sky flashed up that I remember was when it was 67-33 in our favour at one point in the second half.

Funny, I remember a similar figure early-ish in the 2nd half in WHam's favour. Or maybe I was hallucinating on dodgy Guinness.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

I have a couple of points in response to random posts so far in the thread, as well as some of my own.

Robbo looked bloody good yesterday. On one hand, maybe we are starting to see the Robbo of old again. The flipside, and the point that could anihalate the hope is that West Ham didn't put a single high cross into the area from what I remember, and we all know Robinson has struggled with these. Still, I'm positive that he's getting his confidence back. Those 2 saved in the last 15 were top draw in my book.

Chimbonda played like a fucking madman :lol: I thought he was dodgy as hell (should have been sent off for a stupid handball), but while he was playing CB we didn't conceed, so fair play I guess :think:

Bale didn't have one of his best games it has to be said, but it was surely to be expected with him just coming back. In response to the comment about him being wasted at LB. Daniel Alves was one of Ramos' key players at Sevilla, and he played from full back. Like Bale, when he first joined he was used in both defence and midfield, but he soon made the rightback slot his own, and did some serious damage to opponents from that position. Maybe Ramos see's Bale as our own Alves.

I do feel for Kaboul :-( I had such high hopes for him, but it looks a lot like Ramos really doesn't rate him. I'm not a huge Dawson fan either, but I thought he had a solid game yesterday. Was very impressed with Zokora too, filling in as a makeshift CB.

Also, in response to the JJ comments, I agree that although JJ is playing very well, it's probably more down to the system, and each player have defined roles. Jol was from the school of Total Football - a system where by players should be able to play anywhere at any given time. Ramos seems far happier allocated players a role and having them stick to it. I like that. It's simple, but effective.

I'm also very happy with the performance yesterday. Remembering it's still early days (under Wendy), I thought we already looked more like a team than 11 individuals.

Exciting times beckon :wink:

 

[yanno]

Bale didn't have one of his best games it has to be said, but it was surely to be expected with him just coming back. In response to the comment about him being wasted at LB. Daniel Alves was one of Ramos' key players at Sevilla, and he played from full back. Like Bale, when he first joined he was used in both defence and midfield, but he soon made the rightback slot his own, and did some serious damage to opponents from that position. Maybe Ramos see's Bale as our own Alves.

You're correct that Alves usually played as RB for Sevilla, but in difficult away games, Ramos did sometimes play him at RM with a FB behind him. For instance, Alves was at RM at the Lane in last season's UEFA Cup Quarter Final. Here's a link to the Spurs Odyssey report of that match, when Hinkel played at RB:
http://www.spursodyssey.com/0607/se120407.html

To clarify my comments on Gareth Bale, I think he's an outstanding young player. And unlike the Goons with Wallmart, we signed the readymade article from Southampton. But Bale is easily our best option as a left-footed LM, and at the moment I would say Bale's attacking skills are more developed than his defensive ones. Lee is a perfectly competent LB, and would link up well with Bale on the left flank, and provide defensive cover both on the flanks and for our CBs, especially away from home.

At home, we may be able to get away with playing Bale as a LB. But in the first half yesterday, both Chimbo and Bale were playing as buccaneering attacking FBs, getting so far ahead of the CBs that they were often providing no defensive cover at all. I absolutely don't want to go back to the Santini horror days where FBs weren't allowed to cross the halfway line. Rather I want a player like Bale to be able to play to his strengths. And with our current players, I think it suits both the team and Bale for him to able to attack without having to worry constantly about his defensive duties.

As for Dani Alves, he is also excellent going forwards, but I think he would be a defensive liability as a RB in the EPL. He's small and not very strong.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

I agree. As you said:

You're correct that Alves usually played as RB for Sevilla, but in difficult away games, Ramos did sometimes play him at RM with a FB behind him.

I think that may be the way of it with Bale. I honestly worry for Wipey (even though I love the geezer!). I can't help but feel that Bale will be Ramos' first choice LB, playing the occasional game in midfield with Lee coming in. Whether or not Lee will be at Spurs much longer is also a worry. I just have this nasty feeling he'll leave in January :-(

Anyway, we'll be bringing in Alan Hutton to play at RB soon, so I'm happy*








*ray:

 

[leetotty]

See now, I agree that Ramos is tactically very astute but did anyone else not think that dropping Berba in behind Bent and Keane/Defoe was a bit odd? I mean when Keane was still on the field surely he should have been behind Bent and Berba cos it seemed that we started to bang the ball long to Bent for flicks and he wasn't winning a single header.....understandably. I also found that Berba's touch was magnificent when he was bringin it down but then he'd try to run out of midfield with it and kept gettin tackled!

Hhmm, strange, but hey-ho, I liked the way he went for the win, it was very open and exciting. We still look a little ropey at the back with Younes in there so I'd like to see Rocha come back in before King is fit but I thought Chimbo and Zokora performed well, if a little unothordox when they both dropped into defence.

I'm with Ramos on this one I think berbatov is better than keane at dropping into the hole than Keane. He doesn't try and be so clever as Keane tends to and thus is more successful I think at making sure that tottenham keep possession.

Also, that allows Keane to make the darting run and I think Keane is better at making those little runs than what berbatov is.

I noticed berbatov dropping into the hole more than keane against Derby and I think that is one of the decisions that Ramos had made.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

I don't think we'll see this system (3-4-3) too often with Ramos, I think he knew we had to get something out of the game so kind of went for broke and luckily it worked (even though goal wasn't from direct tactical change). To me he just reacted to the situation which is what I like to see. The team did seem a little confused for 5-10 minutes after the change but then played well. I can only see him using Zokora as a makeshift cb in games where we are losing/drawing and pushing high up the pitch for a goal. His acceleration makes him perfect for this. Like others have said I feel for Kaboul, he's clearly not ready yet and has been pushed in at the deep end. I hope the fans don't start to turn on him because in 3-4 years I think he'll be a very good player.

Regarding Bale I like him at left back but I think we could see his positions rotating until we get another left footed lb or lw. All in all a good team performance yesterday and I can see steady progress being made.

 

[Booney]

Totally agree with Spursking. Jol's biggest problems related to decisions made within matches. Felt preparation was often excellent but he did not respond well to events within the 90 minutes and seemed reluctant to change things. When he did, it was often an ill-judged attempt to 'close-out' a narrow lead. Hoddle was the same. Almost like he couldn't admit that his original tactics were wrong.

Truely great managers can make snap decisions during the course of the game that can change it's course. Mourinho was the master of this but all top managers will do it to a point. Let's hope Juande fits into this camp.

 

[batigol]

Totally agree with Spursking. Jol's biggest problems related to decisions made within matches. Felt preparation was often excellent but he did not respond well to events within the 90 minutes and seemed reluctant to change things. When he did, it was often an ill-judged attempt to 'close-out' a narrow lead. Hoddle was the same. Almost like he couldn't admit that his original tactics were wrong.

Truely great managers can make snap decisions during the course of the game that can change it's course. Mourinho was the master of this but all top managers will do it to a point. Let's hope Juande fits into this camp.

Agreed. Check this quote from Curbishley as well that really shows how tactically astute Ramos is:"Ramos changed things around (in the second half) and that caused us a few problems.."

That's a big difference along with the extra effort in making players fitter. I can already see the difference in our concentration throughout the match and Robbo is definitely feeling the better effects of those lost weight.

I concur that JJ is definitely playing better but still feel that we need a player who can distribute better or stamp his authority in the game. Neither Zoko nor JJ can do this.

Time will tell whether Ramos is the real deal but he's making good progress so far.

 

[SpurSince57]

I agree. As you said:

I think that may be the way of it with Bale. I honestly worry for Wipey (even though I love the geezer!). I can't help but feel that Bale will be Ramos' first choice LB, playing the occasional game in midfield with Lee coming in. Whether or not Lee will be at Spurs much longer is also a worry. I just have this nasty feeling he'll leave in January :-(

Anyway, we'll be bringing in Alan Hutton to play at RB soon, so I'm happy*

*ray:

I have a feeling that Leapy's contract is up at the end of this season, as are Salty's and Tainio's. I can't see us letting him go in January unless BAE's seemingly permanent knee injury is sorted, and even if it is he may be off at the ACN with Cameroon. Added to which, he's not been that impressive.

That would leave us a bit stumped unless we drafted in Big Tone or Rocha, although there's Daniels, I suppose.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm with Ramos on this one I think berbatov is better than keane at dropping into the hole than Keane. He doesn't try and be so clever as Keane tends to and thus is more successful I think at making sure that tottenham keep possession.

Also, that allows Keane to make the darting run and I think Keane is better at making those little runs than what berbatov is.

I noticed berbatov dropping into the hole more than keane against Derby and I think that is one of the decisions that Ramos had made.

I agree, Berbatov is much better choice for the deeper role as he can actually hold the ball up under pressure where as Keane is scared of being tackled and doesn't even try to hold/win the ball if it appears he may make contact with the opposition.

 

[yanno]

I agree, Berbatov is much better choice for the deeper role as he can actually hold the ball up under pressure where as Keane is scared of being tackled and doesn't even try to hold/win the ball if it appears he may make contact with the opposition.

I think it's also a case of getting Berba more involved in our play. He's potentially our most creative player, and often our most frustrating as he gets irritated at the poor service as an out-and-out striker.

At Sevilla, Ramos liked to stretch the play. A fast striker, usually Luis Fabiano, would play on the shoulder of the CBs and Fredi would play a bit deeper, linking the play in attacking build-ups and often still able to get on the end of things. For instance, as Sevilla's wingers attacked at pace, Fabiano would attack the six-yard box, and Fredi would be arriving later in the penalty area.

I can see Darren Bent playing like Fabiano for us, and Berba being highly productive in the Kanoute role. The interesting variation in the West Ham game was that Ramos played with wing-backs and two strikers ahead of Berba. A very bold strategy.

 

[markie]

All Ramos needs to do now is get rid of Zoko... Please realise how rubbish he is!!

 

[walworthyid]

All Ramos needs to do now is get rid of Zoko... Please realise how rubbish he is!!

You could well be right, but it is a bit strange that the ivory coast national manager (a country that is not short of talent), martin jol, Commolli, his manager in France and now Ramos seem to think otherwise?

You may be right, or possibly you may be a blinkered know-nothing who has his head so far up his own prejudiced views that he can't see the wood for the shit!