Juande Ramos - Tactical Genius?

[Gilzeanking]

I find it fascinating to watch a top coach at work on our team .

He's already shown flair ingenuity and an ability to read a game during matches . But I'm loving how he's motivating the players , he clearly has their respect .

If anyone could tempt Berbs to give us another year it must Ramos

Also , if there was opposition at Board level to his requests for players, it would be upsetting . I see the slime press are saying that very thing . They know how to press the annoy button eh.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

There were certainly many interesting tactical changes during the West Ham game and they were made pretty early also which was refreshing but it's way too early to decide whether the new boss is a tactical genius

I would never have started Kaboul instead playing Chimbonda centrally. At this moment in time I would have played Lee & Salty with Bale left midfield.
Who knows we might have taken all 3 points at West Ham?

Look how awful Boro are, had we played Keane & Berbs up there who's to say we wouldn't have got 3 points?

I think Bale is wasted at left back a bit like Nzogbia is at Newcastle and I think Lennon is a waste of time at right back, tactical short term change or not, especially when he's had a late night out!!

I do however prefer Berbs in the deeper playmaker role than Keano who always does his best stuff as high up the pitch as possible.

There are many exciting posibilities with the Ramos/Poyet partnership but lets not get carried away yet.
We have a bloody good squad for them to work with and it was only a couple of weeks before they took over that we played Liverpool off their own park at Anfield.

 

[Gilzeanking]

I think thats the right perspective SLY if you only concentrate on achievements so far at Spurs ...

However , when you take into account his incredible successes in the last 18 months , I think we can all be assured its impossible that he's anything less than extremely good at his job ..

 

[southlondonyiddo]

I think thats the right perspective SLY if you only concentrate on achievements so far at Spurs ...

However , when you take into account his incredible successes in the last 18 months , I think we can all be assured its impossible that he's anything less than extremely good at his job ..

I'm not concerned about the good stuff he's done, im only concerned about the here and now.
He had 10 clubs before Seville and did sweet f.a then did great things at Seville.
I dont pick and choose his good or bad bits i'll just look at what he does at Tottenham

 

[walworthyid]

I'm not concerned about the good stuff he's done, im only concerned about the here and now.
He had 10 clubs before Seville and did sweet f.a then did great things at Seville.
I dont pick and choose his good or bad bits i'll just look at what he does at Tottenham

That is just not true and shows how much research you have done. He has only been a failure at 1 club as far as I am aware and that was down to a disagreement with the board.

Do your homework fella!

Although I do agree with the overall point that it is what he is going to do at spurs that counts.

 

[gregga]

All Ramos needs to do now is get rid of Zoko... Please realise how rubbish he is!!

Zokora's no world beater but he has played a lot of games for us and we would struggle without him in the squad because Tainio is always injured and cannot be relied upon; Hudd has no mobility and is inconsistent; and Boatang doesn't have the experience.

Until we sign a real quality central midfielder zokora will get games, and rightly so, he has played no worse than any other of our midfielders this season.

 

[leetotty]

I also think there's a strong case for playing YPLee at LB, and Bale at LM. Bale is so good going forward that it's a waste playing him at LB - plus he was attacking so much from LB that we were frequently being left exposed at the back.

And Lennon as a RWB? He did well in an emergency, but if other EPL teams knew in advance that Lennon was playing at RWB, their gameplan would probably be to destroy us down that flank. I shudder to think what the likes of Bolton would do to us. It's only because Curbishley is so tactically inept - "I didn't know what formation Spurs were playing" is the one of the most embarrassing comments I've ever heard from a top-flight coach - that West Ham didn't take advantage.

The best form of defense is attack, and in Bale we have an excellent LB who can provide an extra dimension to our play. Attacking full backs are not used enough by premiership teams, probably as most mangers air on the side of caution, but Ramos will be pushing Bale as he likes the attacking dimension thye provide. Alves plays RB and is one of the best attacking players Seville had, I would expect Bale to be that Alves, but only a left footed version of him.

Lennon at RB will never be played there from the start of a game, but West Ham were not really threatening much in open play, so it was safe to be more attacking, Zokora is so mobile in that defensive midfield sweeping role it allowed the full backs to push on.

I wouldn;t be surprised if Zokora carries on in that role in the future with attacking full backs of Bale and maybe Chimbonda encouraged to push on for Zokora to cover.

It was good to see this from Ramos yesterday, it could have gone wrong but it could have gone so much better too and I won't be criticising the dare is to do mentality employed by Ramos.

 

[yanno]

The best form of defense is attack, and in Bale we have an excellent LB who can provide an extra dimension to our play. Attacking full backs are not used enough by premiership teams, probably as most mangers air on the side of caution, but Ramos will be pushing Bale as he likes the attacking dimension thye provide. Alves plays RB and is one of the best attacking players Seville had, I would expect Bale to be that Alves, but only a left footed version of him.

Lennon at RB will never be played there from the start of a game, but West Ham were not really threatening much in open play, so it was safe to be more attacking, Zokora is so mobile in that defensive midfield sweeping role it allowed the full backs to push on.

I wouldn;t be surprised if Zokora carries on in that role in the future with attacking full backs of Bale and maybe Chimbonda encouraged to push on for Zokora to cover.

It was good to see this from Ramos yesterday, it could have gone wrong but it could have gone so much better too and I won't be criticising the dare is to do mentality employed by Ramos.

It will be really interesting to see if Ramos plays with 3 CBs on a regular basis (for me, Zoko was playing as a spare CB not a DM sweeper). Chimbo and Bale are natural WBs, and there'd be no place for a genuine winger like Lennon. Zoko had as good a game as he's ever had for Spurs as a spare CB.

But much as I like attacking FBs in principle, until we get a really strong pair of defensive CBs, I don't think we can risk Chimbo and Bale playing 25 yards ahead of our CB pairing. ManU have only been able to play the attacking Evra @LB ahead of the defensive Heinze now that Vidic and Ferdinand have established themselves as a top defensive pairing. Dawson and Kaboul are nowhere near that level of defensive solidity, and they currently need FBs who are able to provide defensive cover. And my argument is that, at the moment, asking Bale to play at LB, especially in away games, reduces the power of one of our most attacking weapons.

I don't always agree with Pleat, but - rightly or wrongly - I see he makes exactly the same argument in the Grauniad today.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/11/26/fullbacks_get_ahead_of_themsel.html

 

[SpurSince57]

Yes, and one of the responses makes the same point I did; when Clichy and Eboué/Sagna (who are probably the most attacking full-backs in the EPL, although Bale and Chimbonda will be running them close on yesterday's evidence) are upfield Flamini stays back as cover against counter-attacks. Arsenal also have a far more experienced CB pairing. I like what Ramos is trying to do, but we've got to accept that it entails a degree of risk.

And would we have this same thread if it hadn't been for a couple of top-drawer saves from Robbo and Jenas' header off the line?

 

[stevenqoz]

It is nice to see that some SC posters are acknowledging that sometimes a tactical change needs to be made during the game. It is strange though that few have recognised that change for what it was ....a move to the dreaded 3 5 2 (which many supporters have an irrational hatered of
Poor old Jol never seemed willing to do or try it. Chrissy H obviously found it too hard mid-match to draw/write out new line-ups for him.
Agree with the poster who said Lennon might struggle to be accomodated in such a line up although we could play him in the hole where he could go both ways.

 

[SpurSince57]

Don't get your hopes up, Steve. I doubt we'll see it used too often.

 

[N10toN17]

I think Ramos is a 4 4 2 man. But has already shown us very early on that he'll make tactical changes and take risks to win football matches, he does come across as someone who is pro active rather than reactive, which is what we want.

 

[Bobishism]

I'm pretty sure Tainio signed a four year deal when he arrived. He must have at least a year on his contract.

 

[tRiKS]

Yes, and one of the responses makes the same point I did; when Clichy and Eboué/Sagna (who are probably the most attacking full-backs in the EPL, although Bale and Chimbonda will be running them close on yesterday's evidence) are upfield Flamini stays back as cover against counter-attacks. Arsenal also have a far more experienced CB pairing. I like what Ramos is trying to do, but we've got to accept that it entails a degree of risk.

And would we have this same thread if it hadn't been for a couple of top-drawer saves from Robbo and Jenas' header off the line?

or if Berbatov had buried the open goal to go 2-0 up against the goons.

It's far too early to give and label to Ramos...isn't it?

 

[yanno]

It is nice to see that some SC posters are acknowledging that sometimes a tactical change needs to be made during the game. It is strange though that few have recognised that change for what it was ....a move to the dreaded 3 5 2 (which many supporters have an irrational hatered of
Poor old Jol never seemed willing to do or try it.

Yes, but as I argued earlier, I think Ramos was firefighting against the Spammers and showed both courage and tactical astuteness in changing the system.

I will be pretty surprized if Ramos plays 3-5-2 in the medium- or long-term. However, he may do so as a short-term solution to our squad weaknesses. Specifically, our chronic CB situation - Kaboul lacking confidence, Dawson showing little leadership and not able or willing to play LCB, and King, Gardner, Rocha, Dervitte (worryingly a no-show for the ressies last night) all injured.

The short-term advantages of a 3-5-2 include the following. Playing as the spare CB in a back three really suited Zokora's game. The Hud could probably play there too. Both Chimbo and Bale are natural wing-backs (and I suspect Lee could play as a WB too). And we could accommodate 3 of our 4 strikers, with Bent or Defoe alongside Keane up front, and Berba in the hole. Playing Bent would put some genuine - Luis Fabiano-style - pace in our frontline, and Berba in the hole means we could get our most talented and creative player more involved in matches.

However, medium-term, I would expect Ramos to try and get a squad together that can play his favoured 4-4-2. And as above, other than playing in the hole, I can't see a place for Lennon in a 3-5-2.

 

[SpurSince57]

You can now add Archibald-Henville to the list of CBs cluttering up the treatment room.

3-5-2 was a bold expedient when the 'safe' response to Kaboul's general haplessness/hopelessness would have been to put Lee on at RB and shift Chimbo to CB, which I've got to say was what I was expecting to happen, and probably what Jol would have done. We just got away with it thanks to Robbo and Jenas, so maybe Ramos has brought us some good luck. But the basic problem that has dogged us for most of the season remains; until King and Rocha return we've got serious problems in central defence. Playing a higher line and trying to pressurise the opposition in their own half has alleviated these to a considerable degree, but as soon as a counter-attack materialises we look as dismayingly vulnerable as we did under Jol.

 

[yanno]

3-5-2 was a bold expedient when the 'safe' response to Kaboul's general haplessness/hopelessness would have been to put Lee on at RB and shift Chimbo to CB, which I've got to say was what I was expecting to happen, and probably what Jol would have done.

SS57 - congrats on your well-deserved awards!

I think we both agree that Ramos reacted boldly to events at Upton Park on Sunday. The more I think about it, the more I do believe that 3-5-2 might be a decent solution to our problems until the transfer window opens.

Specifically, the spare CB (who can step up into a DM position on occasion) provides much needed protection to our hapless CBs. Chimbo and Bale should make very good and productive WBs. And, just as importantly, we get more of our best eleven players on the pitch, because we can play 2 of our 3 strikers with Berba hopefully coming to life in the hole.

Ramos' next few team selections will be intriguing.

 

[leetotty]

SS57 - congrats on your well-deserved awards!

I think we both agree that Ramos reacted boldly to events at Upton Park on Sunday. The more I think about it, the more I do believe that 3-5-2 might be a decent solution to our problems until the transfer window opens.

Specifically, the spare CB (who can step up into a DM position on occasion) provides much needed protection to our hapless CBs. Chimbo and Bale should make very good and productive WBs. And, just as importantly, we get more of our best eleven players on the pitch, because we can play 2 of our 3 strikers with Berba hopefully coming to life in the hole.

Ramos' next few team selections will be intriguing.

I don't think formations are that important...The formation of a team in a game is merely how the game starts and will change depending on how the game unfolds. What we need and sometimes lack is the flexibility of a player to do more than one role. The attacking fullbacks I think is something and you agree will be evident under Ramos, the ability of at least one of the central midfielders to sit and hold in this situation is therefore goign to be key and so at times I would expect us to look in an attacking sense to be playing a 3-5-2. But defensively if the build is slower, we will defend as a 4-4-2.

I think starting as a 3-5-2 shows an obvious weakness in that the opposition will look to turn chimbonda and Bale and capitalise on terrority. We will then have a problem in moving forward as too many players could be behind the ball. 3-5-2 in world football has very few examples of success, whereas an adaptable playing 442 basically dominates world football.

Also if we did play 3-5-2 who would be that back 3? I know that Zokora did well in that game, but I reckon its more to do with his character than his tactical skills. I think he thrives better when the game is open as his major asest of mobility, energy and enthusiasm is shown more clearly. He struggles more when the game is tight and is more of a chess match in nature...

 

[SpurSince57]

The problem I have with the idea is that unless Ramos decides to give the Hudd a whirl at CB, we are stuck with Kaboul, whose confidence must be shot to ribbons by now. That could mean we'd be forced to play the line-up we finished with on Sunday, with Lennon as RWB. Not an ideal solution, although he's certainly shown a willingness to get the tackles in and astounded me by winning a header the other afternoon. Kaboul, of course, is probably going to be a liability whatever the formation and really needs a spell in the ressies to get his head and game together, and I honestly do wonder if Ramos will risk persisting with him. There just aren't any easy solutions.

Fortunately, we have four relatively easy fixtures coming up before three real toughies—Pompey, City and Arsenal, all away. If you believe Physioroom, King should be available for the home game against City, and Rocha and Gardner for the Pompey game, so there is light at the end of the tunnel. I think we can probably stagger through against Aalborg, Birmingham and Anderlecht with a lashed-up back line.

Will we be able to get hold of a CB in January? The only names that have been linked are Jarque and Laursen. But for a CM, if only for the short term, I wondered about Mendieta, who's been completely frozen out at Boro. Goodness knows why, because he came with quite a reputation as a creative midfielder, but he's hardly played for the past three seasons.

 

[yanno]

I think starting as a 3-5-2 shows an obvious weakness in that the opposition will look to turn chimbonda and Bale and capitalise on terrority. We will then have a problem in moving forward as too many players could be behind the ball. 3-5-2 in world football has very few examples of success, whereas an adaptable playing 442 basically dominates world football.

Also if we did play 3-5-2 who would be that back 3? I know that Zokora did well in that game, but I reckon its more to do with his character than his tactical skills. I think he thrives better when the game is open as his major asest of mobility, energy and enthusiasm is shown more clearly. He struggles more when the game is tight and is more of a chess match in nature...

I agree that I think 4-4-2 will be our medium- and long-term formation (as I stated above). Ramos' Sevilla team always played that way. I was esentially wondering whether Juande may be tempted to play 3-5-2 again in the short term. In other words, until he can get reinforcements in during January, or get some of our crocked CBs out of the treatment room.

As for who would play CB in a three, if King was fit, there'd be no need to play a three. So, assuming Ledley isn't fit, any of Dawson, Rocha, Kaboul, Gardner and Dervitte could play as the two markers, and Zokora or Huddlestone could play spare. Rocha also reads the game well enough to play spare.

As for wingbacks being exploited by opposition teams, I entirely agree. It was only due to Curbishley's total tactical ineptitude that he failed to take advantage of Lennon playing as a RWB. That said, with a bit of drilling on the training ground, our two strikers in a 3-5-2 could be assigned to stopping opposition FBs from coming out, and the player in the hole (Berba) could stop their CBs stepping up.

So, the 3-5-2 as a short term fix? Possible. Long term? Unlikely.