Martin Jol?

[SpurSince57]

You just can not accept that Jol was justifiably removed. That's what this boils down to. So you have to try and mitigate it by making out that what follows was an unmitigated disaster, because then it vindicates your opinion.

Is taking over a club in relegation trouble, winning a very good trophy, that in turn yielded an unlikely european qualification, which in turn possibly helped us recruit a couple of excellent players that in turn helped have our best ever EPL season a disaster ? And steering that club from the bottom of the table to comfortable safety a disaster ?

No of course isn't, by anyone's standards.

Was where he left us a disaster ?

No more so than where Jol left us.

You and the other Jol fanboys desperately need to apply ludicrous hyperbole to turn Levy's decision into a catastrophe, an unmitigated disaster. It wasn't. It was a a correct decision, based on good logic, that just didn't turn out as well as could be hoped for but with only 12 months and a lot of major first team upheaval during that period there were plenty of mitigating factors, just as Jol had some for his failures.

'Didn't turn out as well as could be hoped for.' Why, I didn't realise you were such a master of understatement! Yes, Juanque was going to take us to the next level, wasn't he? And he nearly did!

I didn't say it was an unmitigated disaster. I wrote that it was a disaster mitigated only by the cup win. Without the cup win, of course, it would have been unmitigated. Is that clear enough, or should I go through it again?

When someone starts throwing around phrases like 'Jol fanboys' it's pretty clear that they're struggling.

Jol was not justifiably removed. At the end of the 06-07 season there was no suggestion whatsoever on SC or other boards that he should be; after all, we'd had one of the best run-ins in the club's history to secure a European place that had seemed improbable in January, and two successive fifth-place finishes (and we weren't too far off in 04-05) was no mean feat after years of crap. He'd certainly done enough to merit another season.

None of us is able to say to what extent the behind-scenes politicking, subterfuge and downright dishonesty were a factor in our poor start, but it would be absurd to assert that they played no part at all, and that Jol and the players should have just got on with the job and ignored the fact that Levy and Comolli had spent the summer trying to get in a new manager. Comolli's summer signings certainly look questionable under the circumstances.

Ramos was meant to usher in a new era. He got a few wins against mostly bottom-of-the-table opposition that pulled us up to mid-table and won a cup, an achievement that saved him from being the worst manager in Spurs history.

In terms of failing to meet expectations, that's a disaster.

 

[tRiKS]

And yet the year before we lost to an even worse Arsenal line up. My point remains we made a big stride and Ramos was contributory.

Playing devils advocate against myself there's an even more basic pattern that follows, hoddle, Jol, Ramos and Harry in terms of success or not on the pitch. That would fly in the face of anyone claiming progress is down to one or a combination of managers at all.

any guesses?

what no takers?

 

[SpurSince57]

Yes. I agreed we took a big stride under Ramos. Backwards.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

what no takers?

Please answer it.

 

[tRiKS]

Please answer it.

Oh well if you insist. Thanks for asking

Ledley King

Hoddles, 352 went 22/23 games unbeaten and playing well (only the UTD 3-5 loss to utd).. he then lost king for a long period.

Jol in the year we finished 5th was holding onto 4th until King had his foot broke at Everton 7 games from the end of the season. The following season King was unavailable for the Arsenal and Seville cup games both of which we went out. Played far less and 4th was never on the cards. the start of the following season King was unavailable

Ramos had King for the middle of the season BUT chose to play him almost exclusively in the cup games. We beat city away, Arsenal and Chelsea to lift the cup and then I don't think King played more than one game till the end of the season. The next season he rested king for all 8 league games only playing him in the uefa cup?!?

Harry Rednapp suffers less than the others but his ppg ration has only been top 4 when King plays. The season we got 4th King played the majority of the run in. So far this season we've only lost games where king doesn't play and of the other games the only one we didn’t win is when King went off

Ledley King is pretty much the fulcrum to which this clubs recent progression has revolved. He plays we are on target, he plays enough and we achieve.

Arguing about the merits of recent managers is almost irrelevant in the face of such facts.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Oh well if you insist. Thanks for asking

Ledley King

Hoddles, 352 went 22/23 games unbeaten and playing well (only the UTD 3-5 loss to utd).. he then lost king for a long period.

Jol in the year we finished 5th was holding onto 4th until King had his foot broke at Everton 7 games from the end of the season. The following season King was unavailable for the Arsenal and Seville cup games both of which we went out. Played far less and 4th was never on the cards. the start of the following season King was unavailable

Ramos had King for the middle of the season BUT chose to play him almost exclusively in the cup games. We beat city away, Arsenal and Chelsea to lift the cup and then I don't think King played more than one game till the end of the season. The next season he rested king for all 8 league games only playing him in the uefa cup?!?

Harry Rednapp suffers less than the others but his ppg ration has only been top 4 when King plays. The season we got 4th King played the majority of the run in. So far this season we've only lost games where king doesn't play and of the other games the only one we didn’t win is when King went off

Ledley King is pretty much the fulcrum to which this clubs recent progression has revolved. He plays we are on target, he plays enough and we achieve.

Arguing about the merits of recent managers is almost irrelevant in the face of such facts.

Which pretty much proves my point he didn't know his arse from his elbow :lol:

And I did think you might be talking about Ledley King when you initially wrote it.

 

[$hoguN]

Oh well if you insist. Thanks for asking

Ledley King

Hoddles, 352 went 22/23 games unbeaten and playing well (only the UTD 3-5 loss to utd).. he then lost king for a long period.

Jol in the year we finished 5th was holding onto 4th until King had his foot broke at Everton 7 games from the end of the season. The following season King was unavailable for the Arsenal and Seville cup games both of which we went out. Played far less and 4th was never on the cards. the start of the following season King was unavailable

Ramos had King for the middle of the season BUT chose to play him almost exclusively in the cup games. We beat city away, Arsenal and Chelsea to lift the cup and then I don't think King played more than one game till the end of the season. The next season he rested king for all 8 league games only playing him in the uefa cup?!?

Harry Rednapp suffers less than the others but his ppg ration has only been top 4 when King plays. The season we got 4th King played the majority of the run in. So far this season we've only lost games where king doesn't play and of the other games the only one we didn’t win is when King went off

Ledley King is pretty much the fulcrum to which this clubs recent progression has revolved. He plays we are on target, he plays enough and we achieve.

Arguing about the merits of recent managers is almost irrelevant in the face of such facts.

Surely this is just conclusive proof that we need to start a religion in his name?

 

[tRiKS]

Which pretty much proves my point he didn't know his arse from his elbow :lol:

And I did think you might be talking about Ledley King when you initially wrote it.

Or a wider piont that none of them are too confident about the location of arse or elbow unless LK is there pointing at it for them.

 

[Coyboy]

What BC fails to understand is what SS57 said above; in the context of what he was hired for and where he was meant to take us Ramos was a disaster. The cup win was peripheral, getting into Europe an inextricable by product of that so not a separate achievement as he tries to make out.

He was not a logical choice whatsoever. He was flavour of the month. If you are going to use his record at sevilla as evidence of his success then why not behind that or prior to that? Why the fuck did we hire a person who couldn't speak and refused to speak the lingo? Even days before he was fired an interview with him trying to speak English sounded like someone trying to fail GCSE Spanish. It was an ill thought out decision the failure of which is self evident.

Jol on the other hand had two and two thirds seasons roughly of steady progression; progression which was completely squandered by idiotic decisions and spat on.

 

[danielneeds]

This thread is like being stick on a roundabout, going round and round and round indefinitely. Makes me feel a little queasy.

 

[JackDaniels18]

I know Ramos was a shocking manager, but we wouldn't be where we are today without him! in the summer before Redknapp took over the amount of rubbish players he sold as well as keane and berba was really hopeful to our development today. He got rid of the rubbish like stalteri, gardner, taino, steeeed etc.

These players would never have been off loaded under the Jol regime and we fans have to accept that in the long term the sacking of Jol was better for the club as Harry is doing a perfect job!

 

[rsmith]

I know Ramos was a shocking manager, but we wouldn't be where we are today without him! in the summer before Redknapp took over the amount of rubbish players he sold as well as keane and berba was really hopeful to our development today. He got rid of the rubbish like stalteri, gardner, taino, steeeed etc.

These players would never have been off loaded under the Jol regime and we fans have to accept that in the long term the sacking of Jol was better for the club as Harry is doing a perfect job!

This

In their own way, Jol and Wendy (and Comolli) were both stepping stones on the road to Arry. Finally we've got the manager we deserve, so let's show him the love and hope he sticks around long enough to earn the right to be compared with Sir Bill.

(and yes I know it's a mixed metaphor )

 

[Leachie]

There is only one solution.

The Jol, Ramos, Redknapp Management Dream Team!

 

[SpurSince57]

I know Ramos was a shocking manager, but we wouldn't be where we are today without him! in the summer before Redknapp took over the amount of rubbish players he sold as well as keane and berba was really hopeful to our development today. He got rid of the rubbish like stalteri, gardner, taino, steeeed etc.

These players would never have been off loaded under the Jol regime and we fans have to accept that in the long term the sacking of Jol was better for the club as Harry is doing a perfect job!

I'm so glad we've established that as a fact. And Tainio and Steed rubbish? Really? Some of those 'rubbish' players helped Ramos win his trophy.

Funny, isn't it, that of the 12 players we signed in Juanque's two windows, five have already gone and at least another five will be out of the door by next summer at the latest. Only Modric is now a guaranteed starter.

 

[mpickard2087]

Havent the Jol and Ramos debates been done to death? Lets leave it.

 

[spurious1]

See no need to rehash Jol vs. Ramos either, their respective records are all we need to judge them by (if indeed we need to...)

Just to mention probably completely OT that watching Croatia smash Turkey, in Turkey, tonight reminded me that Bilic would be a fantastic manager for us in the future...

 

[SpurSince57]

See no need to rehash Jol vs. Ramos either, their respective records are all we need to judge them by (if indeed we need to...)

Just to mention probably completely OT that watching Croatia smash Turkey, in Turkey, tonight reminded me that Bilic would be a fantastic manager for us in the future...

Bollocks needs to be corrected, though.

Slaven's a great guy, but do you really think he'd be up to the stresses of EPL management?