Martin Jol?

[tRiKS]

That's the only bit I take issue with. In the 5-1 beating of Arsenal, we actually surrendered more possession, let them have more shots, both on and off target, as well as more corners etc etc amen. Looking back and trying to find the positives of the Ramos era, we call this 'winning with style and outplaying Arsenal', nowadays because it's good old 'Arry, the same people that lauded Ramos for masterminding that day, give 'Arry shit if we do the same now, ie winning but not 'dominating'. And that's with us beating their first team now, not what was then effectively nearly a second team. I say nearly, because in the second leg they did play a stronger team but still left the likes of Fabregas and Adebayor on the bench.

And yet the year before we lost to an even worse Arsenal line up. My point remains we made a big stride and Ramos was contributory.

Playing devils advocate against myself there's an even more basic pattern that follows, hoddle, Jol, Ramos and Harry in terms of success or not on the pitch. That would fly in the face of anyone claiming progress is down to one or a combination of managers at all.

any guesses?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I didn't want to get involved. But the 'loose' thing is too silly to ignore :lol:

You couldn't wait to get involved and you know it.....

In mitigation, At least my spelling error didn't come in the post when I was actually calling someone illiterate.

That's the only bit I take issue with. In the 5-1 beating of Arsenal, we actually surrendered more possession, let them have more shots, both on and off target, as well as more corners etc etc amen. Looking back and trying to find the positives of the Ramos era, we call this 'winning with style and outplaying Arsenal', nowadays because it's good old 'Arry, the same people that lauded Ramos for masterminding that day, give 'Arry shit if we do the same now, ie winning but not 'dominating'. And that's with us beating their first team now, not what was then effectively nearly a second team. I say nearly, because in the second leg they did play a stronger team but still left the likes of Fabregas and Adebayor on the bench.

Firstly you ignore the excellent performance at the Emirates that finished 1-1 where we competed well and certainly didn't allow them to walk all over us, and the same in the final, where we were the better side for chunks of the game, mostly until the extra time and chelsea were 2-1 down.

And - it's been a while since I watched it so I wouldn't swear blind - but I'm pretty sure in the second leg we started by pressing Arsenal high up and generally getting up em and trying to play ourselves, and the first half was pretty tight. We found ourselves 4 up by the hour mark and then Arsenal just threw everything at us, understandably.

And there was a huge difference in quality to that team and also in relation to that Arsenal team interms of inferiority in personnel than to this season where by most reasonable opinions our team now is pretty much on par at worst with that of Arsenal's, yet we are still getting completely outplayed on our own turf.

 

[ealingspur]

and winning.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Firstly you ignore the excellent performance at the Emirates that finished 1-1 where we competed well and certainly didn't allow them to walk all over us, and the same in the final, where we were the better side for chunks of the game, mostly until the extra time and chelsea were 2-1 down.

And - it's been a while since I watched it so I wouldn't swear blind - but I'm pretty sure in the second leg we started by pressing Arsenal high up and generally getting up em and trying to play ourselves, and the first half was pretty tight. We found ourselves 4 up by the hour mark and then Arsenal just threw everything at us, understandably.

And there was a huge difference in quality to that team and also in relation to that Arsenal team interms of inferiority in personnel than to this season where by most reasonable opinions our team now is pretty much on par at worst with that of Arsenal's, yet we are still getting completely outplayed on our own turf.

I didn't ignore anything, wasn't talking about the first performance, although naturally, I don't recall it being 'excellent'.

All I'm after is consistency, you called SS57 an old wind bag who likes to rewrite history, and while I'm not really that fussed about getting involved in your relationship, when it comes to Ramos, there is nobody more guilty of rewriting history than you are. It just doesn't make any sense, me and you are on the same page regarding Jol, we were regarding Crouch too, I don't agree with a lot of the things you say about Redknapp but I can at least see your point of view, yet to be honest, I find for someone who claims as much knowledge as you do, to talk the way you do about Ramos, absolutely hilarious. This fantasy brand of football that you appear to think we played under him, high pressing, working hard, all the things you want to see, just really didn't happen. We played well about 3 times in his managerial stint with us, and we played appallingly a lot more than that.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

and winning.

but not 5-1.

boom.

 

[ealingspur]

but not 5-1.

boom.

but at the emirates.

booya.

 

[pook]

... Levy's loyalty ...

:rofl:

every now and again this thread throws in a real jewel.

 

[SpurSince57]

And yet the year before we lost to an even worse Arsenal line up. My point remains we made a big stride and Ramos was contributory.

A big stride backwards, for sure.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I didn't ignore anything, wasn't talking about the first performance, although naturally, I don't recall it being 'excellent'.

All I'm after is consistency, you called SS57 an old wind bag who likes to rewrite history, and while I'm not really that fussed about getting involved in your relationship, when it comes to Ramos, there is nobody more guilty of rewriting history than you are. It just doesn't make any sense, me and you are on the same page regarding Jol, we were regarding Crouch too, I don't agree with a lot of the things you say about Redknapp but I can at least see your point of view, yet to be honest, I find for someone who claims as much knowledge as you do, to talk the way you do about Ramos, absolutely hilarious. This fantasy brand of football that you appear to think we played under him, high pressing, working hard, all the things you want to see, just really didn't happen. We played well about 3 times in his managerial stint with us, and we played appallingly a lot more than that.

In Ramos's first 27 games all those things were prevalent, and I'm not the only one that noticed them. The training regime for the players changed, with double daily sessions, we adopted a higher pressing game - even the Ramos hater in chief SS57 noted this and commented on it - and played a much more possession orientated game.

This was a quote (I just did a quick google) from a bloomberg article:

Ramos took charge at Spurs in October with the club struggling near the bottom of the Premier League. He has since lost only five of his 28 games in charge, winning 15 times.

``The way he has organized the team has been brilliant,'' added Spurs goalkeeper Paul Robinson. ``I really hope this can move us up to the next level. This was about fulfilling potential. We've showed what we can do.''

It's a relatively meaningless quote in isolation but of you google you'll find plenty of good things being said about Ramos's ethos up until the CC win.

We all talk about the Arsenal and Chelsea games, but forget as well that we went up to ManC for the qtr final, went down to ten men after 20 minutes and came away from there with a 2-0 win as well.

I have never claimed that all was brilliant post CC final. But in terms of the performances they were a long way from terrible and on many games, especially in those first 8 games of the following season when the team was trying to acclimatise to gaining and losing (loosing as we call it in sveeden) half a team, we were often dominating possession (I posted the stats many times) but not getting results. If we were getting outplayed like Sunday, and not getting results that would be a disaster, but when you can see you have good players and they are dominating the ball for the most part, that is not an unmitigated disaster, it just means that a certain area(s) need work.

This was no more evident than the games either side of Ramos's departure. We thoroughly dominated Hull in every way(having 67%), but their keeper had a blinder and we missed chance after chance, they scored a wonder free kick with their only shot on target and we lost 1-0.
Next game, before Redknapp had even taken control of team selection we beat Bolton. Got the early goal and went on to win comfortably 2-0. If anything the game against Hull was more convincing performance, but because we lost you're calling it shit, which is bollocks. It was a shit result, but not performance.

There were clearly communication issues, and I didn't agree with many things Ramos did. The Villa game (during that first 8) was poor team selection and tactics, his treatment of players like Kaboul, and his communication skills were dreadful, and I could understand why he was sacked, just as a protest march was planned against the board, but his appointment was absolutely logical and to be applauded, he had proved himself to be an excellent coach, who could work with a DOF on a budget, and play a good brand of football at Seville, and in his first few months at Spurs.

We were never going to get Mourinho, the logical thing to do was try and appoint the next Mourinho. It didn't turn out that way, but I salute Levy for trying and understand the logic, and stand by what I believe, that Ramos tried to instil an ethos, and for the most part, I liked that ethos.

 

[felmani26]

The long and short of it was that Ramos failed to adequately get over the language barrier which took on huge significance when he couldn't halt our slide at the start of the 08/09 season.

Was he all that bad? No, his coaching philosophy was admirable as well as his fitness regime but like Jol before him, the board made absolutely the right decision to relinquish his duties and to promptly appoint Redknapp.

 

[mattwilson]

No their isn't.....

lolwat

if you're going to be a grammar nazi at least get it right

 

[Spurs_Bear]

In Ramos's first 27 games all those things were prevalent, and I'm not the only one that noticed them. The training regime for the players changed, with double daily sessions, we adopted a higher pressing game - even the Ramos hater in chief SS57 noted this and commented on it - and played a much more possession orientated game.

This was a quote (I just did a quick google) from a bloomberg article:

Ramos took charge at Spurs in October with the club struggling near the bottom of the Premier League. He has since lost only five of his 28 games in charge, winning 15 times.

``The way he has organized the team has been brilliant,'' added Spurs goalkeeper Paul Robinson. ``I really hope this can move us up to the next level. This was about fulfilling potential. We've showed what we can do.''

It's a relatively meaningless quote in isolation but of you google you'll find plenty of good things being said about Ramos's ethos up until the CC win.

We all talk about the Arsenal and Chelsea games, but forget as well that we went up to ManC for the qtr final, went down to ten men after 20 minutes and came away from there with a 2-0 win as well.

I have never claimed that all was brilliant post CC final. But in terms of the performances they were a long way from terrible and on many games, especially in those first 8 games of the following season when the team was trying to acclimatise to gaining and losing (loosing as we call it in sveeden) half a team, we were often dominating possession (I posted the stats many times) but not getting results. If we were getting outplayed like Sunday, and not getting results that would be a disaster, but when you can see you have good players and they are dominating the ball for the most part, that is not an unmitigated disaster, it just means that a certain area(s) need work.

This was no more evident than the games either side of Ramos's departure. We thoroughly dominated Hull in every way(having 67%), but their keeper had a blinder and we missed chance after chance, they scored a wonder free kick with their only shot on target and we lost 1-0.
Next game, before Redknapp had even taken control of team selection we beat Bolton. Got the early goal and went on to win comfortably 2-0. If anything the game against Hull was more convincing performance, but because we lost you're calling it shit, which is bollocks. It was a shit result, but not performance.

There were clearly communication issues, and I didn't agree with many things Ramos did. The Villa game (during that first 8) was poor team selection and tactics, his treatment of players like Kaboul, and his communication skills were dreadful, and I could understand why he was sacked, just as a protest march was planned against the board, but his appointment was absolutely logical and to be applauded, he had proved himself to be an excellent coach, who could work with a DOF on a budget, and play a good brand of football at Seville, and in his first few months at Spurs.

We were never going to get Mourinho, the logical thing to do was try and appoint the next Mourinho. It didn't turn out that way, but I salute Levy for trying and understand the logic, and stand by what I believe, that Ramos tried to instil an ethos, and for the most part, I liked that ethos.

It's a romantic view definitely. Can't get anywhere near what you're talking about re the Hull game. A team new to the Premier League, went ahead to a worldie, then sat back and let us have the ball, as we had proved so far that season at being totally inept with it.

This ethos thing as well, games like the Reading joke where we lucked our way to a 6-4 after defending like children and having our world class striker turn up for a change. It's those kind of games where if that was now you would be looking for ways to call it lottery football, where as those kind of performances were the norm under Ramos, not the score line obviously but the type of performance. Yet in that you can see this 'ethos' that he was installing.

Just don't get it. I used to sit South Upper in those days, with a better viewpoint you could say for viewing the game tactically than what I have now. And for the large percentage of the time there was no idea what the hell was going on.

 

[SpurSince57]

In Ramos's first 27 games all those things were prevalent, and I'm not the only one that noticed them. The training regime for the players changed, with double daily sessions, we adopted a higher pressing game - even the Ramos hater in chief SS57 noted this and commented on it - and played a much more possession orientated game.

And then I slapped myself around the face a few times.

It's interesting that you referred dismissively to Jol's wins over the 'mighty Famagusta' yet avoided mentioning that Ramos' victories in these first 27 games included triumphs over Blackpool, Hapoel, Aalborg (who gave us an almighty scare), Slavia and the five aforementioned relegation candidates. Portsmouth and City were half-decent, but sides we expected to win against. This leaves only the cup wins over Arsenal and Chelsea as anything to crow about.

How anyone can excuse a league record that's amongst the very worst in our entire history, let alone claim it as some kind of success, escapes me entirely.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

lolwat

if you're going to be a grammar nazi at least get it right

Oh for the love of god. There was a reason it was underlined and italic.

It also happened to be the word that BC called Coyboy on.

If you're going to be a grammar nazi don't be a douchebag.

"lolwhat" that did make me laugh though :lol:

 

[Coyboy]

Is there anything sadder than an illiterate hypocrite ?

Depends on your moral standards I guess. I can think of many.

But in football forums I would say yes there is someone who holds himself up as a football oracle and yet to most people is nothing but an old bore who can't after three years accept he backed the wrong horse.

 

[Coyboy]

And yet BC's beef was that despite our stunning possessive dominance, Ramos should have been sacked this side of Bonfire night not in October. So he has wept into his Guardian chalkboards for the last three years based on a slightly premature dismissal.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It's a romantic view definitely. Can't get anywhere near what you're talking about re the Hull game. A team new to the Premier League, went ahead to a worldie, then sat back and let us have the ball, as we had proved so far that season at being totally inept with it.

This ethos thing as well, games like the Reading joke where we lucked our way to a 6-4 after defending like children and having our world class striker turn up for a change. It's those kind of games where if that was now you would be looking for ways to call it lottery football, where as those kind of performances were the norm under Ramos, not the score line obviously but the type of performance. Yet in that you can see this 'ethos' that he was installing.

Just don't get it. I used to sit South Upper in those days, with a better viewpoint you could say for viewing the game tactically than what I have now. And for the large percentage of the time there was no idea what the hell was going on.

I agree about Reading and plenty of other games. I was critical of many of the games under Ramos, of the tactics employed (West Ham, Birmingham, Villa in the last 8 games) all spring directly to mind as games that had me criticising his tactics and team selections. His treatment of some players (Lee, Boeteng, Kaboul, his preference for Dawson over Kaboul etc). His communication skills were clearly not good.

I've never tried to claim he got everything right, or even that I didn't understand why he was sacked. Just that some of those games people now call shit, weren't, they were decent performances with shit outcomes. And I liked the general ethos of what he tried to do and that I always thought we were strong enough to start getting points and would have liked him given a few more games, in the hope that we might just emulate what he'd achieved at Sevilla.

I still believe getting rid of Jol was the best thing to do, and that under the circumstances Ramos was the best possible candidate.

People like you, coyboy and SS57 want to paint it is a disaster that it wasn't. We ended up a couple of points worse off than where we had been, a (very enjoyable) trophy, european football, both of which helped us procure a better squad than if Jol hadn't been sacked.

Would any of us swapped that CC cup run and win and all the other stuff that had to come with it for another season of Jol's predictable failings ?

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I agree about Reading and plenty of other games. I was critical of many of the games under Ramos, of the tactics employed (West Ham, Birmingham, Villa in the last 8 games) all spring directly to mind as games that had me criticising his tactics and team selections. His treatment of some players (Lee, Boeteng, Kaboul, his preference for Dawson over Kaboul etc). His communication skills were clearly not good.

I've never tried to claim he got everything right, or even that I didn't understand why he was sacked. Just that some of those games people now call shit, weren't, they were decent performances with shit outcomes. And I liked the general ethos of what he tried to do and that I always thought we were strong enough to start getting points and would have liked him given a few more games, in the hope that we might just emulate what he'd achieved at Sevilla.

I still believe getting rid of Jol was the best thing to do, and that under the circumstances Ramos was the best possible candidate.

People like you, coyboy and SS57 want to paint it is a disaster that it wasn't. We ended up a couple of points worse off than where we had been, a (very enjoyable) trophy, european football, both of which helped us procure a better squad than if Jol hadn't been sacked.

Would any of us swapped that CC cup run and win and all the other stuff that had to come with it for another season of Jol's predictable failings ?

No....and I'm certainly not a Jol fanboy by any means as I have said in the past. I think it was a disaster in the way we went about it. Paying him the money we did wasn't Ramos' fault, it was ours, and yet another disastrous bit of judgement by Commolli. We made ourselves look like prize ****s, I wasn't convinced by his record pre-Sevilla and for as many articles about him being the real deal, there were also more than enough from Spain that the guy was actually a pretender. Filling in at Real Madrid aside, where he had a team of superstars, he has yet again been a flop.

The thing that I think you get confused by is that you think when I'm slagging off Ramos, you think I'm laughing in an 'I told you so' way, where as I'm not, I'm fucking furious that we made the **** the 'dizzying offer' in the first place.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

No....and I'm certainly not a Jol fanboy by any means as I have said in the past. I think it was a disaster in the way we went about it. Paying him the money we did wasn't Ramos' fault, it was ours, and yet another disastrous bit of judgement by Commolli. We made ourselves look like prize ****s, I wasn't convinced by his record pre-Sevilla and for as many articles about him being the real deal, there were also more than enough from Spain that the guy was actually a pretender. Filling in at Real Madrid aside, where he had a team of superstars, he has yet again been a flop.

The thing that I think you get confused by is that you think when I'm slagging off Ramos, you think I'm laughing in an 'I told you so' way, where as I'm not, I'm fucking furious that we made the **** the 'dizzying offer' in the first place.

I couldn't disagree more. At the time I can't think of a more logical choice. Here's a guy who's just won back to back UEFA cups (giving us and Jol a lesson in the process), back to back Spanish Trophies beating the giants of Spanish football, playing a very progressive brand of football, working on a budget under a DOF. It was a nye on perfect CV.

So what if his career prior hadn't been up to much ? He was a proven winner who had established that he wasn't scared to take on bigger fish, exactly what a progressive ambitious club were looking for.

Compare that to Redknapp's CV. The jammiest FA Cup run I've ever seen, preceded by decades of under achieving and wasting talent. What did you think about Redknapp's dizzying offer ?

Who would you rather we hired at the time we hired Ramos?

 

[Narnill]

Titans of the community colliding over an issue where there are no right answers.

This.could.be.epic.