Martin Jol?

[ealingspur]

Redknapp had a knack of getting teams out of the relegation zone, which is where we were (deep) when he was hired. I for one was deeply relieved.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I couldn't disagree more. At the time I can't think of a more logical choice. Here's a guy who's just won back to back UEFA cups (giving us and Jol a lesson in the process), back to back Spanish Trophies beating the giants of Spanish football, playing a very progressive brand of football, working on a budget under a DOF. It was a nye on perfect CV.

So what if his career prior hadn't been up to much ? He was a proven winner who had established that he wasn't scared to take on bigger fish, exactly what a progressive ambitious club were looking for.

Compare that to Redknapp's CV. The jammiest FA Cup run I've ever seen, preceded by decades of under achieving and wasting talent. What did you think about Redknapp's dizzying offer ?

Who would you rather we hired at the time we hired Ramos?

Yeah, a real lesson that was. A controversial penalty that never was in the first leg, then the most ridiculous own goal followed by shite defending to allow Kanoute (?) to score. I refer you back to the history rewriting re Ramos.

Another example again, Ramos was a 'proven winner taking on the bigger fish' while Redknapp fluked an FA Cup win, beating the biggest of big fish at Old Trafford, something that hardly anyone did, with or without luck. It's just funny the way you word it.

Redknapp now has a record of one defeat to Arsene Wenger in something like 7 outings, including 3 wins, I guess he is now a proven winner against the big fish, with United the only top side we haven't beaten since he took over.

Ramos is now........managing a Ukranian side? And getting owned by Martin Jol of all people.

Regarding Redknapp's 'dizzying offer', I was so fucked off with Ramos and his clueless bullshit it could have been any **** given the job and it would have been like the relief of passing a kidney stone.

I knew you were going to ask the question re who should have replaced Jol, and I don't really know the answer. I would have preferred a British manager at the time or at least one that knew the league. You have to be so careful when bringing over a foreign manager, whether it's a Mourinho or a Benitez. Of which Ramos was certainly neither.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Titans of the community colliding over an issue where there are no right answers.

This.could.be.epic.

"When we collide we come together...."

 

[SpurSince57]

People like you, coyboy and SS57 want to paint it is a disaster that it wasn't. We ended up a couple of points worse off than where we had been, a (very enjoyable) trophy, european football, both of which helped us procure a better squad than if Jol hadn't been sacked.

Would any of us swapped that CC cup run and win and all the other stuff that had to come with it for another season of Jol's predictable failings ?

And all the other stuff was? A pretty poor display in the UEFA Cup and league form that was in reality no great improvement on our first ten games of the season? This is the most absurd spinning.

Sure, the Carling win was great, and I was happily going mental in the B&H with a couple of hundred others, but the league form was already starting to be a bit of a concern and got steadily worse. Of the 'better squad' we procured only one—Modric—is now guaranteed a starting spot, and of the others only Corluka is likely to be here next season. If Jol had not been undermined, if Comolli had signed more of the players we actually needed that summer, who's to say how well we would have done?

It is utterly ludicrous that you dismiss what Jol did for us and snipe continually at Redknapp, both far superior managers to Juanque, as their records prove.

 

[Bobbins]

There was a period during the game where a series of Jol songs were sung by our fans, and then topped off with an extended "Harry Redknapp's Blue and White Army", which I thought was great.

 

[RickyVilla]

There was a period during the game where a series of Jol songs were sung by our fans, and then topped off with an extended "Harry Redknapp's Blue and White Army", which I thought was great.

Yes. It has been stated by a number of people on the thread. However it is a battle of the Titans now so best just keep your head down until the hurricane blows over!!! :grin:

 

[SpurSince57]

There was a period during the game where a series of Jol songs were sung by our fans, and then topped off with an extended "Harry Redknapp's Blue and White Army", which I thought was great.

If it was the same set of fans I guess I don't have too much of a problem. If it wasn't, I do. I'd still sooner a big round of applause and cheers for Jol at the start and finish and songs for Harry and the team through the game, though.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

And all the other stuff was? A pretty poor display in the UEFA Cup and league form that was in reality no great improvement on our first ten games of the season? This is the most absurd spinning.

Sure, the Carling win was great, and I was happily going mental in the B&H with a couple of hundred others, but the league form was already starting to be a bit of a concern and got steadily worse. Of the 'better squad' we procured only one—Modric—is now guaranteed a starting spot, and of the others only Corluka is likely to be here next season. If Jol had not been undermined, if Comolli had signed more of the players we actually needed that summer, who's to say how well we would have done?

It is utterly ludicrous that you dismiss what Jol did for us and snipe continually at Redknapp, both far superior managers to Juanque, as their records prove.

What Redknapp has achieved, it is clearly superior to what Ramos and Jol achieved. But I've criticised all three and will continue to do so, I'm just not prepared to listen to the bollocks that Ramos was an unmitigated disaster and that Jol wasn't.

People seem to want to overlook the fact that despite having three times as in the job, and a vast sum spent on the squad, Jol left us in virtually the same position Ramos did.

If you want to call Ramos a failure because of where he left us, then you have to ultimately accept that Jol was too. Or you can just be realistic and accept that both achieved some form of success but both ultimately were replaced with some justification for valid reasons.

To call a manager who in 12 months in charge delivered one of our only two trophies in 20 years, steered us to safety and made a couple of great signings who were major influences on us reaching CL football two years later a disaster is bollocks. To claim his first 9 games were iffy, was bollocks, and to claim the games before the final were crap as well is bollocks. 28 games, 5 defeats, 3 of them to top 3 sides and only one at home was damn good considering the shit Jol had left behind.

You keep trotting out the excuses for Jol, but won't hear any made for Ramos, who clearly found himself in a difficult situation when he arrived, and then 12 months later when the fulcrum of his side walked out whilst new faces were struggling to gel together.

Of course there were other factors, communication problems etc, and I understand why Levy sacked him, just like I understand why Jol was sacked.

As far as I'm concerned neither were disaster's, both gave us fans something(s) to enjoy and some things that weren't enjoyable. I can't think of any games under Jol that came as close to in enjoyment as those games against Arsenal and Chelsea and Jol had three fucking years. But steering us safely to fifth two years running also had it's merit.

 

[RickyVilla]

But I've criticised all three and will continue to do so.

So you will criticise our managers until we win every game and are champions of the universe? Interesting.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yeah, a real lesson that was. A controversial penalty that never was in the first leg, then the most ridiculous own goal followed by shite defending to allow Kanoute (?) to score. I refer you back to the history rewriting re Ramos.

Another example again, Ramos was a 'proven winner taking on the bigger fish' while Redknapp fluked an FA Cup win, beating the biggest of big fish at Old Trafford, something that hardly anyone did, with or without luck. It's just funny the way you word it.

Redknapp now has a record of one defeat to Arsene Wenger in something like 7 outings, including 3 wins, I guess he is now a proven winner against the big fish, with United the only top side we haven't beaten since he took over.

Ramos is now........managing a Ukranian side? And getting owned by Martin Jol of all people.

Regarding Redknapp's 'dizzying offer', I was so fucked off with Ramos and his clueless bullshit it could have been any **** given the job and it would have been like the relief of passing a kidney stone.

I knew you were going to ask the question re who should have replaced Jol, and I don't really know the answer. I would have preferred a British manager at the time or at least one that knew the league. You have to be so careful when bringing over a foreign manager, whether it's a Mourinho or a Benitez. Of which Ramos was certainly neither.

I refer you to some of the above post. Redknapp has clearly, unequivocally achieved more than both. No if's and's or but's.

My point was what had he achieved before that Ramos hadn't ? The logic behind appointing Ramos was as sound as it could have been. He didn't turn out to be Mourinho or even Benitez, but if he already was then we wouldn't have got him anyway would we. That was the point. He'd certainly looked like he was capable of being Benitez at least, especially after he'd steered us to a a very stylish trophy win didn't he ?

Why the preference for an British manager ? Only one of them has achieved anything of note in the last 20 years. Maybe two if you include Dalglish's brief reign at Blackburn.

 

[SpurSince57]

What Redknapp has achieved, it is clearly superior to what Ramos and Jol achieved. But I've criticised all three and will continue to do so, I'm just not prepared to listen to the bollocks that Ramos was an unmitigated disaster and that Jol wasn't.

People seem to want to overlook the fact that despite having three times as in the job, and a vast sum spent on the squad, Jol left us in virtually the same position Ramos did.

If you want to call Ramos a failure because of where he left us, then you have to ultimately accept that Jol was too. Or you can just be realistic and accept that both achieved some form of success but both ultimately were replaced with some justification for valid reasons.

To call a manager who in 12 months in charge delivered one of our only two trophies in 20 years, steered us to safety and made a couple of great signings who were major influences on us reaching CL football two years later a disaster is bollocks. To claim his first 9 games were iffy, was bollocks, and to claim the games before the final were crap as well is bollocks. 28 games, 5 defeats, 3 of them to top 3 sides and only one at home was damn good considering the shit Jol had left behind.

You keep trotting out the excuses for Jol, but won't hear any made for Ramos, who clearly found himself in a difficult situation when he arrived, and then 12 months later when the fulcrum of his side walked out whilst new faces were struggling to gel together.

Of course there were other factors, communication problems etc, and I understand why Levy sacked him, just like I understand why Jol was sacked.

As far as I'm concerned neither were disaster's, both gave us fans something(s) to enjoy and some things that weren't enjoyable. I can't think of any games under Jol that came as close to in enjoyment as those games against Arsenal and Chelsea and Jol had three fucking years. But steering us safely to fifth two years running also had it's merit.

So you're simply going to ignore the fact that we had three solid if at times somewhat stodgy years of progress and achievement with Jol and focus on ten games in which he was under the pressure of knowing the 'loyal' Levy and Comolli were negotiating with another club's manager, and then actively briefing against him via tame journos and ITKs? We did spend a great deal of money, but it wasn't necessarily on players that were either wanted or needed, and Juanque had almost as much lavished on him in the space of just two windows, with the club prepared to spend additional millions on Arshavin, Veloso and Podolski. If Ramos, Comolli and Levy didn't believe Berbatov wanted out they were mugs, and if new faces were struggling to gel, whose fault was that?

35 league games, 10 wins, 11 draws, 14 defeats, 1.17 PPG. Three games short of a season's worth of virtually unrelieved dreck, barely any better than Ossie's awful time or the relegation season, and you're trying to portray it as some kind of success?

Ludicrous.

 

[gregga]

If it was the same set of fans I guess I don't have too much of a problem. If it wasn't, I do. I'd still sooner a big round of applause and cheers for Jol at the start and finish and songs for Harry and the team through the game, though.

It was the same set of fans.

This whole singing for Jol thing has been totally blown out proportion by people who have it in for BMJ.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So you're simply going to ignore the fact that we had three solid if at times somewhat stodgy years of progress and achievement with Jol and focus on ten games in which he was under the pressure of knowing the 'loyal' Levy and Comolli were negotiating with another club's manager, and then actively briefing against him via tame journos and ITKs? We did spend a great deal of money, but it wasn't necessarily on players that were either wanted or needed, and Juanque had almost as much lavished on him in the space of just two windows, with the club prepared to spend additional millions on Arshavin, Veloso and Podolski. If Ramos, Comolli and Levy didn't believe Berbatov wanted out they were mugs, and if new faces were struggling to gel, whose fault was that?

35 league games, 10 wins, 11 draws, 14 defeats, 1.17 PPG. Three games short of a season's worth of virtually unrelieved dreck, barely any better than Ossie's awful time or the relegation season, and you're trying to portray it as some kind of success?

Ludicrous.

Read what I wrote, I am not dismissing everything Jol achieved, nor should you dismiss everything Ramos achieved. Because he achieved something special. Something that only a couple of managers have achieved in the last 40 years.

I have never tried to portray Ramos's results as a success. I am not and have never just spoken about the results FFS.

I liked some of what Ramos tried to do in terms of ethos, more than anything Jol ever tried to do - which was what ? sum up Jols philosophy for me ? we are 1-0 up bring on Defoe for Keane. We are 1-0 down, bring on Defoe take off the left back, move the cm to lb. Or plan B (which he is still doing as we saw on sunday) bring off striker, take off winger who supplies striker.

I have always said I understand why Ramos was replaced, it is about time you accepted the same for Jol, and also stopped childishly denigrating what Ramos did achieve, it was no mean feat. Because I'm damn sure you appreciated it at the time.

 

[Mr Pink]

It was the same set of fans.

This whole singing for Jol thing has been totally blown out proportion by people who have it in for BMJ.

That's not a representative description. I liked BMJ, and still do, but I think the emphasis should of been swinging (singing :wink Harry's way at the end of the day.

Just my opinion at the end of the day but I respect the fact that are a broad range of feelings on the matter.

 

[Eric_s]

Read what I wrote, I am not dismissing everything Jol achieved, nor should you dismiss everything Ramos achieved. Because he achieved something special. Something that only a couple of managers have achieved in the last 40 years.

I have never tried to portray Ramos's results as a success. I am not and have never just spoken about the results FFS.

I liked some of what Ramos tried to do in terms of ethos, more than anything Jol ever tried to do - which was what ? sum up Jols philosophy for me ? we are 1-0 up bring on Defoe for Keane. We are 1-0 down, bring on Defoe take off the left back, move the cm to lb. Or plan B (which he is still doing as we saw on sunday) bring off striker, take off winger who supplies striker.

I have always said I understand why Ramos was replaced, it is about time you accepted the same for Jol, and also stopped childishly denigrating what Ramos did achieve, it was no mean feat. Because I'm damn sure you appreciated it at the time.

Well said. Unfortunately some people have replaced their memory of facts with fantatsies.

 

[SpurSince57]

Well said. Unfortunately some people have replaced their memory of facts with fantatsies.

And would you care to point out some of these fantatsies?

Would you, for instance, say that Juanque's abysmal league record was one of them?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

And would you care to point out some of these fantatsies?

Would you, for instance, say that Juanque's abysmal league record was one of them?

But this is the thing. Earlier in this thread you started claiming his record was poor from the get go, or that it was starting to look poor prior to February. This is bollocks, if it had of been we'd have ended up where Jol left us, in big fucking trouble. It's perfectly valid to say that results and performances were erratic and poor post february, but where was the disaster ? in his first season, he got us safe, won us a trophy, thereby getting us what had appeared an impossible european qualification, which almost certainly helped us recruit.

Then after eight poor results out of a season of 38 he was sacked. Clearly no disaster, because it was easily rectified with the squad we had. Christ Redknapp went nearly the same without a win last spring, does that make him a disaster ?

Jol failed to win when we needed to win games to finish fourth. He failed every time we got into a semi.


And lets be clear about that trophy. I'm 45, and in all that time I've only enjoyed winning one trophy as much as that one, because who we beat and how we beat them.

I would never denigrate the achievement of high league finishes, in the scheme of things they are more merited than cup success, but that one was right up there in most peoples favourite memories I would imagine, and not just because of the final.

Jol was ok. A steady eddie, but he got too many important things wrong, and he's continued to do it where ever he's been. Vindicating the decision to try and upgrade him, successfully IMO.

 

[SpurSince57]

But this is the thing. Earlier in this thread you started claiming his record was poor from the get go, or that it was starting to look poor prior to February. This is bollocks, if it had of been we'd have ended up where Jol left us, in big fucking trouble. It's perfectly valid to say that results and performances were erratic and poor post february, but where was the disaster ? in his first season, he got us safe, won us a trophy, thereby getting us what had appeared an impossible european qualification, which almost certainly helped us recruit.

Then after eight poor results out of a season of 38 he was sacked. Clearly no disaster, because it was easily rectified with the squad we had. Christ Redknapp went nearly the same without a win last spring, does that make him a disaster ?

Jol failed to win when we needed to win games to finish fourth. He failed every time we got into a semi.


And lets be clear about that trophy. I'm 45, and in all that time I've only enjoyed winning one trophy as much as that one, because who we beat and how we beat them.

I would never denigrate the achievement of high league finishes, in the scheme of things they are more merited than cup success, but that one was right up there in most peoples favourite memories I would imagine, and not just because of the final.

Jol was ok. A steady eddie, but he got too many important things wrong, and he's continued to do it where ever he's been. Vindicating the decision to try and upgrade him, successfully IMO.

I said it was poor from the beginning of January, and that the wins in the nine games prior to that flattered to deceive, since all but two of them were against weak opposition. Our subsequent league wins, except for that over Pompey, were also against teams that were struggling, and we made a real meal of it against Derby and Reading and were pretty fortunate to beat Sunderland at the Lane. We took a meagre 22 points from 18 games, compared to 17 frpm the previous nine, and our last ten games were only marginally better than our first ten. The dreadful start to the following season was a continuation of that poor form, except that things got even worse, compounded by a considerable outlay on new players and Donna's Bullshit Central daily coverage of the summer training camp intended to assure we fans that everything was safe in Juanque's capable hands. That's something we're unlikely to see repeated.

You're posting this tripe with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight. There was no guarantee that Harry would respond to Levy's panic call, and no guarantee that he would be able to turn things around the way he did. Nor can you say with any certainty that the season would have started so badly had Levy and Comolli kept faith with Jol instead of tapping up the latest flavour-of-the-month manager.

Yes, Redknapp had a poor run last spring. Ancelotti had an even worse one last autumn. Neither of these lasted 26 games, however, and were sandwiched between excellent ones. With Juanque it was 10 months of almost unrelieved crap. Yes, winning the Carling was great, as I've said umpteen times. I'm sure that if Harry had failed and we'd been lining up against Doncaster or someone we'd have been able to point to it as a great achievement.

And you're now claiming that Juanque was a successful upgrade on Jol?

Excuse me whilst I roll around on the floor laughing. And I'm sure I shan't be the only one.

Poppycock.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You just can not accept that Jol was justifiably removed. That's what this boils down to. So you have to try and mitigate it by making out that what follows was an unmitigated disaster, because then it vindicates your opinion.

Is taking over a club in relegation trouble, winning a very good trophy, that in turn yielded an unlikely european qualification, which in turn possibly helped us recruit a couple of excellent players that in turn helped have our best ever EPL season a disaster ? And steering that club from the bottom of the table to comfortable safety a disaster ?

No of course isn't, by anyone's standards.

Was where he left us a disaster ?

No more so than where Jol left us.

You and the other Jol fanboys desperately need to apply ludicrous hyperbole to turn Levy's decision into a catastrophe, an unmitigated disaster. It wasn't. It was a a correct decision, based on good logic that just didn't turn out as well as could be hoped for, but with only 12 months and a lot of major first team upheaval during that period there were plenty of mitigating factors, just as Jol had some for his failures.

 

[alamo]

lolwat

if you're going to be a grammar nazi at least get it right

Wooooossssshhhhhhhhhhh.

The sound of the tongue-in-cheek comment going right over MWs head.