MOTM/Ratings Vs ManU

[HotspurFC1950]

The next few games will be very interesting.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

Vorm 7... Good distribution.. done nothing wrong
Walker 7.. Done well
Alderwiereld 8.5..Really impressed with what I saw, I knew he was a decent defender but was really surprised with how good he was yesterday.. he communicates very well
Jan 7 Good performance
Davies 7.. everyone knows I don't rate him but fair dues he had far better positioning defensively yesterday & done well
Dier 7.5.. For someone that's not cm thought he was excellent & long-term I think this stint in midfield will benefit him as a centre-back, it will give him a better understanding of what happens ahead of him & improve his positional sense
Bentaleb 4,...Not at the races, looked not up to match speed, he's young & that's what happens with inexperience.. good day's & bad day's.. this was one of those bad day's
Dembele 7.5.. I thought he was very good defensively & looks a lot fitter than he has before
Eriksen 7 Very good in parts & put a shift in
Chadli 4.... I forgot he was playing
Kane 7.. Tough game for him but he stuck at it & done well
Subs.. Lamela added energy, Mason made a big difference, Ali hard to judge but he didn't weaken the team

Overall both teams nullified each other, defensively I thought we were well organised but we lack quality on the ball, Utd struggled with balls played in behind them & we didn't exploit that enough, we also lacked energy in our pressing in periods. Tactically I thought it was a good game to watch & was really impressed with how Utd moved the ball in midfield once they went ahead but credit to our lads they remained defensively organised & kept there shape.. a couple of seasons ago I think heads would of dropped & we would of folded. If we add some players with movement & quality on the ball we have the making of a very good side imo.

Hear hear.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

Did annoy me that Shearer said it was a very Spursy performance on MOTD (true) yet completely failed to mention how terrible Utd were.

Ditto the Lineker PR piece with Sherwood after they were dicked for most of the game

Does reinforce that history is written by the victors (and their mates in the media)

Yeh it is like some sort of collective mass stupidity that goes on. Reasonably clever (I hope anyway) people like sports writers seem totally unable to tell the difference between a good performance and a good result.

Last season we had some terrible performances that got wins when we were clearly the worse team. Yet in the papers the next day our players would have the higher ratings than the opposition.

Yesterday we didn't play amazing but even an idiot could see we were the better team. We lost because of a silly error and not taking our chances. The story was lucky United, unlucky spurs but apparently the pundits where drunk or didn't watch the match properly.

It really annoys me why it's so difficult for some people to differentiate between performance and result.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Cheers BC. We don't always see eye to eye, but I do think we share a similar approach to what we want from Spurs. I,e, effective football (rather than fancy but haphazard football).

I certainly liked what AVB was trying to do. Under him we finally looked organised, well-drilled, and generally tough to break down. He also seemed like someone with a plan, rather than just a "runaraandabit" approach.

There's this misconception on this forum (largely my own fault) that I don't like Pochettino. That's not true. I wanted FDB (still do, to be fair), but I warmed to Pochettino when he was at Southampton. That performance against Arsenal was like football Nirvana for me - as if the team was anticipating exactly what I wanted them to be doing.

It's the attack that worries me, but I guess this is one area that he's had to live with without any new signings. I know you're not a huge fan of Berahino (for legitimate reasons, in my opinion), but one thing about him is that he's direct. Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela...they all seem too cautious. It's possible that this might be one of the issues that is down to Pochettino's direction, but it could just be their lack of quality.

To reiterate, it's not the general approach that I find tedious, but the absence of imagination in our attacking play. We look organised, but don't have that cutting edge...yet.

My idea of a perfect performance is a 1-0 win that forces the goal then shuts down the opposition, with maybe a 2-0 outcome due to a great piece of counter-attacking. I've never been a lottery football kind of guy. But the key point is that the type of teams that play that way successfully tend to know how to unlock their opponents effectively.

Nice post mate.

I agree with you, I worry about our attacking play to. Its lacking in ideas and the balance is wrong IMO. Too many nice technical players who can't stretch the play, and their movement isn't good enough a lot of the time either. We need someone who's going to really commit defenders...that's what disrupts the opponents shape and leaves gap to exploit.

If we had one or two players doing that then Eriksen would become more of an influence and Kane would have more clear cut opportunities to work with,

Our pass and move is just too slow at times and that's why our play is looking unimaginative. Of course this enables a good degree of control in games but if we arn't looking like hurting the opposition enough its not going to be effective enough overall.

Players like Berahino, and Njie possibly, are absolutely essential now IMO. Direct running and committing defenders is something we arn't seeing anywhere near enough of. Everything we do is a slow build up, often resulting in a lot of sluggish sideways passing and then it end ups going back as the opposition find it simple enough to defend against.

As you probably know SK I also wanted FDB, but I think he was more similar to AVB in approach, so I'm not sure he'd have gone down well with the "I want thrills and spills" brigade.

I think the attacking problems are at least as much about personnel as they are about coaching. We see this at all levels of football and in all leagues and styles. Dortmund are a great example. We all adored their brand of football under Klopp. They pressed hard, against weaker teams dominated the ball, but also counter attacked with verve. I watched them last year and they were still trying to do the same things, but without Gotze, Lewandowski, and with players like Reus and Blazczykowski out inured they just could not create and score goals and were being punished by bus parkers and continually dropping points.

And to a degree so it was with AVB and so it is with Pochettino. With Bale there was a finale and a raison d'être to the stranglehold risk averse football. With Bale gone and the likes of Dempsey in, the finale was more damp squib than crescendo.

I think it is incredibly hard , nay impossible, to make unintelligent players intelligent, I worry less about this than a coach's ability to get players doing things that I believe can be coached. Like getting the team to function as a dynamic but cohesive group both with and without the ball. Oragnisation, discipline, work rate without out it, movement off the ball when we have it etc. improving cognitive ability.

One of the reasons I keep advocating our younger players being given game time is because, having watched them, I think they have actually been better coached in this respect, and have less mental baggage aversion to this "collective ethic" than some of the senior players.

I think AVB was a better coach in this respect than Pochettino. A better communicator and teacher. Better at organising. But I think Pochettino at least has the intention to do things the right way and believes in achieving them the right way, i.e. by coaching and teaching and operating a meritocratic system (even if I don't always agree with the choices he makes within that).

That was the positive for me yesterday, that we at least looked generally better disciplined and organised for much of it, probably better than some of us registered whilst watching the game. This was voiced by LVG post match, and supported by the fact that ManU at home managed one shot on target and more tellingly created virtually no dangerous moments.

I will be much happier if we show signs of improvement in our defensive diligence, discipline and structure as a group as I think these are foundations on which good attacking football are built on. You have to defend from the front, not the middle or the back.

I don't think pure pace will cure anything, we saw that with Lennon and Townsend, Defoe and even Bale when he was largely played as a LW. That pace is largely moribund without a brain attached to it. I'm happy for pacey attackers to come in but unless they are smart ones, it's pointless.

The problem for me with both Pochettino and AVB is that at times they make a rod for their own backs with counter intuitive selections that hinder and instead of help that cause. AVB continually choosing to play Dempsey as a No.10 instead of Sigurdsson for example. Pochettino's selection of Townsend continually over Lamela after the Liverpool away game was mental. The choice to play Dier (a player I really like as a young CB) as a CM recently, absolutely counter intuitive to playing a high line, high tempo press and counter attack style, when we have much, much better options. Also couldn't understand why both managers were formation inflexible, especially as AVB was a 433 man previously.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I tend to agree with this. Don't get me wrong, I love a pacey attacker but I'm a formation where the front four contest the middle, quick feet and quick thought are more important. This is why Kane, Eriksen, Chadli and in theory Pritchard and Carroll all suit the style, while Townsend and Lennon just don't. 442 or even 433 with wingers on their strong foot, those two (and actually, I imagine, Lamela), suddenly look better.

In Walker, Trippier, Rose, Yedlin and even Davies the pace is there, but as yet only really Tippier and occasionally Davies provides the delivery. All are young, if they're willing then they'll improve.

Completely agree with this.

I personally still think the key to everything is a CM who can decide and dictate the pace of our play. I'd even sacrifice some pressing in CM if it meant putting in a positionally intelligent player with top class awareness and a great range of passing. Yesterday it wasn't Schneiderlin I was envious of, it was Carrick. If you had him next to any of Mason, Bentaleb, Alli, guiding them through a match and taking charge of the ball then all would be far better players for it and our play would flow far more naturally. You could hope that one of them would develop into that kind of player but I think you either have it or you don't, as Carrick had it as soon as he broke into the West Ham side. Put him next to Mason or Alli, with the kid going box to box and Carrick pulling the strings (much like in his one great season with Jenas) and we have a seriously good midfield. I know you and many other earmark Bentaleb for this but I just don't see it. However, I'm desperate to be proven wrong as our manager clearly liked the guy. Unfortunately in Bentaleb I see far more Jamie Redknapp or Ray Wilkins than than I do Carrick, a guy who just doesn't do much in either direction.

IMO we had this in Capoue. Exactly this. he wasn't perfect, but we aren't going to get perfect, but he was as close to this idea as we are realistically going to find. Look how hard we are finding it to bring in another defensively proficient footballing CM. It's a big shame IMO that his issues couldn't be resolved (whatever they were on or off the pitch) , because I think at the centre of a 433 or in a team that worked better defensively from the front he was this player you talk about.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Completely agree with this.



IMO we had this in Capoue. Exactly this. he wasn't perfect, but we aren't going to get perfect, but he was as close to this idea as we are realistically going to find. Look how hard we are finding it to bring in another defensively proficient footballing CM. It's a big shame IMO that his issues couldn't be resolved (whatever they were on or off the pitch) , because I think at the centre of a 433 or in a team that worked better defensively from the front he was this player you talk about.

Based on the first few games of both his seasons with us I agree about Capoue. However, he seemed to become very lackadaisical very quickly under both AVB and Pochettino. I get the feeling that while the skillet and intelligence might've been there, the application and willing were not. You yourself are a very strongest advocates of all the xi pulling in the same direction and in the pitch at least he just wasn't. Shame as I thought he had a lot of ability.

I actually think someone like Alex Song would make sense. Only just in his prime, great reader of the game, good passer (though not a Carrick admittedly) and a good presser. He has a tonne of midfielders ahead of him at Barca still so I'd think he'd be a clever signing.

Alternatively, and still looking at La Liga, I have a soft spot for Ignacio Camacho at Malaga

 

[jezz]

Just watched the game.
I thought we played well.
Bentaleb needs to stop doing Dembele impressions and move the ball quicker.
Walker was unlucky with the goal.
Front 4 need to stop being greedy and look for a team mate.
But all in all pressing was good and 1 nil away to United with a flukey goal isn't as bad as some are making out.
Couple of additions and we'll be up there in may.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Based on the first few games of both his seasons with us I agree about Capoue. However, he seemed to become very lackadaisical very quickly under both AVB and Pochettino. I get the feeling that while the skillet and intelligence might've been there, the application and willing were not. You yourself are a very strongest advocates of all the xi pulling in the same direction and in the pitch at least he just wasn't. Shame as I thought he had a lot of ability.

I actually think someone like Alex Song would make sense. Only just in his prime, great reader of the game, good passer (though not a Carrick admittedly) and a good presser. He has a tonne of midfielders ahead of him at Barca still so I'd think he'd be a clever signing.

Alternatively, and still looking at La Liga, I have a soft spot for Ignacio Camacho at Malaga

I agree about Song, have mooted his name myself.

 

[Mr Pink]

I agree about Song, have mooted his name myself.

isn't he out injured though?

But I agree to, think he'd be an excellent choice.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

I agree about Song, have mooted his name myself.

isn't he out injured though?

But I agree to, think he'd be an excellent choice.

He's out until Mid September and I think he's going to West Ham anyway.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

People are saying Walker was unlucky with the Manure goal but what the hell was he doing upfield that caused him to race back anyway. We weren't attacking down the right.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

People are saying Walker was unlucky with the Manure goal but what the hell was he doing upfield that caused him to race back anyway. We weren't attacking down the right.

We don't need to be attacking down the right for him to be upfield. In this system both full backs are meant to bomb upfield pretty much as soon as we begin moving the ball upfield.

 

[TropicalYid]

People are saying Walker was unlucky with the Manure goal but what the hell was he doing upfield that caused him to race back anyway. We weren't attacking down the right.

No, but we were in possesion of the ball. In control. Building an attack. Thats probably why walker was upfield. Stupid mistake from Bentaleb. Just cant lose the ball in that situation.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

We don't need to be attacking down the right for him to be upfield. In this system both full backs are meant to bomb upfield pretty much as soon as we begin moving the ball upfield.

Yeah but common sense comes in to play. Walker is not going to be involved in forward play in that situation. Whilst there is an overall plan and system, players need to use their own intelligence during a game at certain times. Nothing worse for a coach when players don't use common sense with instructions. Walker was not going to be involved in that forward play at that time and it should not have been necessary for him to race back to recover a position he should have comfortably dealt with had he been defensive in that play.

 

[spurs9]

People are saying Walker was unlucky with the Manure goal but what the hell was he doing upfield that caused him to race back anyway. We weren't attacking down the right.

Why not have a go at Davies for being out of position, when he was further up the pitch than Walker? Davies wasn't to blame either, as we had the ball in Utd's half, so he was were he should have been. Walker was behind the ball and on the half way like with only the 2 CB's & Dier behind him (the last defender being only about 6 yards closer to goal than Walker).

 

[spurs9]

Yeah but common sense comes in to play. Walker is not going to be involved in forward play in that situation. Whilst there is an overall plan and system, players need to use their own intelligence during a game at certain times. Nothing worse for a coach when players don't use common sense with instructions. Walker was not going to be involved in that forward play at that time and it should not have been necessary for him to race back to recover a position he should have comfortably dealt with had he been defensive in that play.

Bentaleb could have quite easily passed the ball across field to Walker or to Dembele, who was on the other side of the center circle.

 

[Jamturk]

Bentaleb could have quite easily passed the ball across field to Walker or to Dembele, who was on the other side of the center circle.

If Cambiasso was next to him it would never had happened.

Don't the board remember when the Man Utd youngsters came through Ferguson brought in Cantona for £1m and it all flourished from there.

Have they not learned anything?

 

[Shadydan]

Yeah but common sense comes in to play. Walker is not going to be involved in forward play in that situation. Whilst there is an overall plan and system, players need to use their own intelligence during a game at certain times. Nothing worse for a coach when players don't use common sense with instructions. Walker was not going to be involved in that forward play at that time and it should not have been necessary for him to race back to recover a position he should have comfortably dealt with had he been defensive in that play.

The need to find another scapegoat, why?

Let's just accept that Bentaleb gave the ball away and our players were out of position, simple as that.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

The need to find another scapegoat, why?

Let's just accept that Bentaleb gave the ball away and our players were out of position, simple as that.

Walker had a good game overall.

 

[JohanTheYid]

With inverted wingers the full backs provide the width, Walker was pushing on to allow for a quick switch should the opportunity arise and would have been doing so under instructions I imagine. Had he made the tackle without the ball going in we'd have been talking about his amazing recovery. Unfortunate, nothing else.