Player watch: Josh Onomah

[yanno]

That's very interesting, how well informed is jack Pitt-Brooke normally ?

He says the same things many of us have been saying for two years about Poch not trusting Onomah in CM.

Like you I've mixed emotions about this loan. For me, of those mentioned, Celtic under Rodgers would have been my first choice, he'd get to play a very decent brand of football for a dominant team and also get to play in Europe (CL maybe) and I think it would have been easier (less risky) for Rodgers to fit him in under less pressure than struggling PL sides.

I do think if Poch isn't going to trust him in CM though that he's better off going and playing some proper football than another year of understudying Sissoko at the training ground. Just not sure Villa/Bruce and the championship is the best place?


It really pisses me off that Poch places so much "trust" in a CM cart horse like Dier but shits himself about giving Onomah a chance.

I don't know how ITK reporter Jack Pitt-Brooke is, but he's confident in asserting the following:

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Onomah sees himself as a box to box midfielder, especially given his physical development in his late teens. That is the role he has played in youth teams and that is where he played so successfully for England U20s earlier this summer.
But Pochettino does not trust him there, not yet. Last season Onomah and Harry Winks started as equals but Winks quickly earned Pochettino’s trust in the middle, Onomah never did. By the end of the season, Winks had started 12 games, Onomah just three.
Pochettino only saw Onomah as an option out wide, trying to make the most his speed and strength, but not trusting his skills in the middle. Ultimately he was a back-up for Moussa Sissoko and that was it, until he proved to his manager that he had learned.
The problem with Pochettino’s stance is that he was not giving Onomah the chance to prove himself in midfield at Spurs, but nor was he allowing him to do that elsewhere. Onomah was stuck. People close to Pochettino were insisting to him that Onomah was in fact a very promising midfielder and should be allowed to play there. Pochettino is a manager with very clear ideas in his head about how he wants to work, and he does not change path willingly. But this week, in the case of Onomah, under strong advice about what Onomah can be, he gave way.
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Quickly browsing the Villa forums, they seem to have been playing 4-4-1-1 with Grealish in the hole pre-season. But Grealish is now injured for 3 months, so some are wondering if Onomah has been brought in to play the number 10 role behind the striker.

Neither of us have great confidence in Bruce's coaching, but if Josh gets time centrally in a team pushing for promotion from the Championship, we both agree it's better than hanging around the Spurs training ground and getting the odd minute as a wide AM.

 

[kaz Hirai]

Just like Pritchard was after he made Championship team of the year you mean?

Obviously Pritchard still wasn't good enough upon return. Let's hope onomah is hey?

 

[Hoddle&Waddle]

So, according to the Indie, we could have loaned Josh to the EPL or Celtic.

I'm not fussed about his avoiding Huddersfield & Burnley, but Brighton under Chris Hughton would have been an interesting option. I would have trusted Hughton to use Josh wisely far more than I'd trust Bruce, and he would have been testing himself against PL players week in week out.

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So Onomah, unusually for someone his age, has never been on loan. At the start of the summer Huddersfield, Brighton and Burnley were all interested in taking him but Spurs said no. A good offer from Celtic, where he would have played more, was rejected too.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...n-mauricio-pochettino-loan-deal-a7876226.html

I think we've made the right choice in placing him in the Championship at this stage of his development.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Just like Pritchard was after he made Championship team of the year you mean?

He was injured though?

 

[yanno]

Reflecting on those comments in the Indie confirming the observations of many of us here that Poch did not seem to trust Onomah centrally, I think it's probably for the best that he's gone out on loan.

If Josh is given opportunities in CM / ACM at Villa, then it's up to him to step up, and demonstrate how effective he can be centrally.

Then, on his return to Spurs, we will see if Poch is prepared to play a box-to-box CM in his system. None of Wanyama, Dier, Winks or Dembele could be described as box-to-box in the fashion that youth watchers have seen Josh play at various age groups.

However the way Onomah played in the U20s World Cup, shielding the CBs and picking the ball up from them, and only occasionally surging forward, seemed quite similar to the role Dembele plays for us. With the exception that Josh was getting his head up and looking to use the ball earlier.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Obviously Pritchard still wasn't good enough upon return. Let's hope onomah is hey?

Yeah, no way Pritchard could have been as useful as Njie, Nkoudou or Sissoko eh?

 

[Blake Griffin]

Reflecting on those comments in the Indie confirming the observations of many of us here that Poch did not seem to trust Onomah centrally, I think it's probably for the best that he's gone out on loan.

If Josh is given opportunities in CM / ACM at Villa, then it's up to him to step up, and demonstrate how effective he can be centrally.

Then, on his return to Spurs, we will see if Poch is prepared to play a box-to-box CM in his system. None of Wanyama, Dier, Winks or Dembele could be described as box-to-box in the fashion that youth watchers have seen Josh play at various age groups.

However the way Onomah played in the U20s World Cup, shielding the CBs and picking the ball up from them, and only occasionally surging forward, seemed quite similar to the role Dembele plays for us. With the exception that Josh was getting his head up and looking to use the ball earlier.

he just needs to play cm, #10 is no good for him either. my worry is bruce has just seen grealish sidelined and has chanced his arm with onomah, i'd like to think a lot of planning went into this move but i'm not entirely convinced that's the case.

 

[yanno]

he just needs to play cm, #10 is no good for him either. my worry is bruce has just seen grealish sidelined and has chanced his arm with onomah, i'd like to think a lot of planning went into this move but i'm not entirely convinced that's the case.

You may well be correct.

Reading between the lines of the Indie article, it seems that Celtic & three PL clubs wanted Josh on loan at the beginning of pre-season and we said No. Then, as pre-season progressed, Poch did not change his belief that Josh's best position was as a wide AM and not a CM.

Somebody - McDermott? Levy? - then persuaded Poch that if he wasn't going to use Josh centrally, then he should allow him out on loan. The best available option this far into pre-season was Villa, and the club and player agreed to extend his contract and the move to the Championship on loan.

It'll be interesting to see if Bruce does play Josh in the Grealish role behind the striker, or adapts his formation once he's seen Onomah's strengths in training.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

he just needs to play cm, #10 is no good for him either. my worry is bruce has just seen grealish sidelined and has chanced his arm with onomah, i'd like to think a lot of planning went into this move but i'm not entirely convinced that's the case.

To be fair Onomah's most common role for both the u18s and u21s was as a CM/no10 hybrid in front of 2 CMs. That role suits him if he's allowed to drop deep and pick up the ball wherever he pleases. Admittedly if they are expecting a traditional no 10, that he is not.

 

[spurs9]

he just needs to play cm, #10 is no good for him either. my worry is bruce has just seen grealish sidelined and has chanced his arm with onomah, i'd like to think a lot of planning went into this move but i'm not entirely convinced that's the case.

Lansbury played #10 in most games last season for Villa with Grealish LW, so I would imagine Lansbury would be more likely to play there with either Hourihane or Onomah in CM next to Whelan.

 

[sly1]

I personally don't feel I've seen enough of Onomah to be a sceptic or a believer, nor do I have a strong opinion about his best position.

I do find slightly strange, though, just how much importance people seem to place on the exact position that he is playing in. In my experience (barring pure DMs such as Dier, Wanyama, Makalele), most good midfielders are generally pretty good wherever they are played in midfield. Take Alli, Gerrard, Eriksen, Dembele, Scholes, Beckham, or Modric. There could be plenty of argument about what their best position is, but you'd also be pretty confident that they'd do a decent job anywhere in the midfield.

Perhaps an exception to the above is players who are distinctly lacking in pace (for example, Carrick or Pirlo), who don't often end up playing high up the pitch or out wide. This doesn't seem to apply especially to Onomah from what I've seen.

So, I would like to understand why some people feel that he would be great as a CM yet so ill equipped to play anywhere else.

 

[Blake Griffin]

I personally don't feel I've seen enough of Onomah to be a sceptic or a believer, nor do I have a strong opinion about his best position.

I do find slightly strange, though, just how much importance people seem to place on the exact position that he is playing in. In my experience (barring pure DMs such as Dier, Wanyama, Makalele), most good midfielders are generally pretty good wherever they are played in midfield. Take Alli, Gerrard, Eriksen, Dembele, Scholes, Beckham, or Modric. There could be plenty of argument about what their best position is, but you'd also be pretty confident that they'd do a decent job anywhere in the midfield.

Perhaps an exception to the above is players who are distinctly lacking in pace (for example, Carrick or Pirlo), who don't often end up playing high up the pitch or out wide. This doesn't seem to apply especially to Onomah from what I've seen.

So, I would like to understand why some people feel that he would be great as a CM yet so ill equipped to play anywhere else.

what do you think about the [up until a couple of days ago] most expensive player in the world, paul pogba? mourinho had him as a cm in a 2 and he really struggled defensively, he tried him as a #10 and he had little effect on any part of the game, it was only when he had him in a three with carrick and herrera that you actually saw some semblance of a quality player .. and that's one that cost 89m. if gerrard and scholes were so adaptable then why did england struggle for years whenever they shunted one out to the wing? why did modric struggle initially at madrid? was it because he was settling in or because jose stereotyped him as a #10 because of his stature? dembele was playing as a #10 for us and pochettino practically dropped him from the squad for the remaining two months of his first season. eriksen i'm sure can do a job as a cm, at home to bournemouth, but against quality opposition? i doubt it. not in a two anyway.

there are two phases to midfield. defensive/deep-lying and attacking, i don't think there are many players that can seamlessly switch from one to the other and have the same effect. onomah belongs in the former but as of yet he's only been played in the latter by poch.

 

[thebenjamin]

That's very interesting, how well informed is jack Pitt-Brooke normally ?

He says the same things many of us have been saying for two years about Poch not trusting Onomah in CM.

Like you I've mixed emotions about this loan. For me, of those mentioned, Celtic under Rodgers would have been my first choice, he'd get to play a very decent brand of football for a dominant team and also get to play in Europe (CL maybe) and I think it would have been easier (less risky) for Rodgers to fit him in under less pressure than struggling PL sides.

I do think if Poch isn't going to trust him in CM though that he's better off going and playing some proper football than another year of understudying Sissoko at the training ground. Just not sure Villa/Bruce and the championship is the best place?


It really pisses me off that Poch places so much "trust" in a CM cart horse like Dier but shits himself about giving Onomah a chance.

Yeah Dier's been so shit in midfield that renowned managerial failure José Mourinho wanted to build Manchester United's midfield around him.

 

[sly1]

what do you think about the [up until a couple of days ago] most expensive player in the world, paul pogba? mourinho had him as a cm in a 2 and he really struggled defensively, he tried him as a #10 and he had little effect on any part of the game, it was only when he had him in a three with carrick and herrera that you actually saw some semblance of a quality player .. and that's one that cost 89m. if gerrard and scholes were so adaptable then why did england struggle for years whenever they shunted one out to the wing? why did modric struggle initially at madrid? was it because he was settling in or because jose stereotyped him as a #10 because of his stature? dembele was playing as a #10 for us and pochettino practically dropped him from the squad for the remaining two months of his first season. eriksen i'm sure can do a job as a cm, at home to bournemouth, but against quality opposition? i doubt it. not in a two anyway.

there are two phases to midfield. defensive/deep-lying and attacking, i don't think there are many players that can seamlessly switch from one to the other and have the same effect. onomah belongs in the former but as of yet he's only been played in the latter by poch.

I have no doubt that an excellent player can appear average if his position isn't right, the system isn't right, or the team isn't right.

I just find it strange that people talk as though it were more or less pointless to play Onomah if it's not in his preferred CM position. Sure, Pogba has looked a lot better in a three, but I haven't heard anyone say that unless you're playing with three CMs you might as well not bother with him.

I think Modric is a good example. His early days at Spurs have been slightly revised in retrospect I think. When he started out playing on the left, it clearly wasn't his best position or preferred position, but there was no doubt that he was a quality player.

I admit that I didn't see him play at all in his early days at Madrid. I know he wasn't popular to begin with, but was he actually useless? I had assumed that was largely Madrid fans being impatient and entitled.

So regarding Onomah, I am interested if people who have watched him a lot think that he could do an alright job out of position, or whether it really is the case that you might as well not bother if he's not in CM.

(For comparison, if it were Modric going to Villa on loan I would think that he'd be best as a deep lying CM but, to be honest, would be their best player wherever he plays)

 

[Clark28]

Hopefully he has a great year there and helps them win promotion, with Dembele's fitness record he might be cooked this time next year, would be nice if Josh is ready to step up.

I'm expecting Winks to be too.

 

[TommyGee]

On the bench for Villa today. Will be interesting to see how he goes.

 

[Hoddle_Ledge]

On the bench today.

 

[dannythomas]

I think we've made the right choice in placing him in the Championship at this stage of his development.

When we are without Wanyama, Son, Nkoudou, Rose, Lamela not to mention Walker, I fail to see that it makes any sense to sell or loan out any of our players unless and until new players come in. Onomah was a useful squad player and the depth of our squad is diminished, so why diminish it still further ?

 

[Gbspurs]

On the bench today.

Can't expect him to start which such talents as Henri Lansbury in the squad......

 

[beats1]

Just came on for Aston Villa