Match Ratings Ratings vs Dortmund

[Bus-Conductor]

How would you choose which matches to drop him for?

Same way you choose for any player. After 4/5 consecutive poor games would be a definite possibility. Especially when you have a player like Son who is even more productive than Alli.

As a few of us said a few games ago when he was in the midst of a poor run, i think and hope he’s got the character to respond to that kind of kick up the arse, and come back more determined.

I think for his own development he needs to not be over indulged. It’s bad for him and bad for the team which is supposed to be run on a more meritocratic ethos.

Personally I don’t believe anyone should be undroppable, it’s how you raise and keep standards, collectively and individually.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

Same way you choose for any player. After 4/5 poor consecutive games would be a definite possibility. Especially when you have a player like Son who is even more productive than Alli.

As a few of us said a few games ago when he was in the midst of a poor run, i think and hope he’s got the character to respond to that kind of kick up the arse, and come back more determined.

I think for his own development he needs to not be over indulged. It’s bad for him and bad for the team which is supposed to be run on a more meritocratic ethos.

Personally I don’t believe anyone should be unstoppable, it’s how you raise and keep standards, collectively and individually.

I agree that no one should be unstoppable but we disagree about how important his contribution has been this season so far, and whether he deserves his place. I wouldn’t be dropping him. I believe he presents threats and options that no other player at Spurs and very few elsewhere are able to.

It seems also that he can create goals even when below his peak. It’s easy to look back at games you’d have dropped him for. Looking forward, it’s a great deal more speculative, precisely because he’s capable of the unpredictable. He reminds me very much of Glenn when he was being roundly criticised for his lack of contribution in games in which we struggled, by the same people who now, in retrospect, call him a genius and one of our greatest ever players.

So yes, I do think you can make a special case for a special talent provided you understand what sort of risk you’re undertaking. I’m with Poch on this one.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree that no one should be unstoppable but we disagree about how important his contribution has been this season so far, and whether he deserves his place. I wouldn’t be dropping him. I believe he presents threats and options that no other player at Spurs and very few elsewhere are able to.

It seems also that he can create goals even when below his peak. It’s easy to look back at games you’d have dropped him for. Looking forward, it’s a great deal more speculative, precisely because he’s capable of the unpredictable. He reminds me very much of Glenn when he was being roundly criticised for his lack of contribution in games in which we struggled, by the same people who now, in retrospect, call him a genius and one of our greatest ever players.

So yes, I do think you can make a special case for a special talent provided you understand what sort of risk you’re undertaking. I’m with Poch on this one.

I agree that Alli is a crucial player, he is just about picking himself most weeks, but in the system we play 352 or 3421 or 3331 whichever you want to call it, when everyone is fit we do have other players who are as productive as he is who could play his role/position or give us another aspect within those structures, such as Eriksen and Son for example. Son was actually more productive than Alli per minute on the pitch last season (maybe this season too). In Son's case he brings a bit more pace giving us another dimension, although he is equally as erratic as Alli and you can't play Son as a CM/8 type role that you can Alli, but in the forward positions Son is a viable alternative, as is Eriksen when everyone else is fit to play in midfield.

It's not about looking back at games to decide when to drop him, I am saying when he's just had 3/4/5 poor games consecutively then drop him for the next game or two and see what happens. The same way it works for most of our players where there is competition for places, it can only help him raise his game. I think the very best managers would all do this under similar circumstances where there are viable alternatives and it invariably raises the standard of their teams.

I'm not just picking on Alli here, there have been phases when Kane and Eriksen (a couple of years ago in Eriksen's case) probably our two most important players, have gone through dips, and Ive said the same. And it's not about "punishing" it's about letting them know standards or aspects of of their game must be maintained or improved, complacency mustn't set in, and that we are a meritocratic team, otherwise you end up with complacent, untouchable players and very unhappy squad.


Edit

And Alli is nothing like Hoddle, no-one ever accused of a lack of contribution, and they certainly never accused him of bumbling carelessness. The only thing that was levelled at Hoddle was that he was a bit of a tart in the tackle and not the busiest of ****s, and it was almost entirely Daliy Mail/Express journalists when picking their England teams (as it was them who pretty much picked the team in those days), not Spurs fans, who all knew him for the creative genius he was, certainly none that I knew.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

@Bus-Conductor , there's no point continuing our disagreement about dropping Dele, we just see it differently.

As for Glenn, I can assure you there were plenty who thought he was the wrong type of player to play every week in a struggling team. I can clearly remember the calls to drag him off when we went a couple of goals down, which was sadly not an infrequent occurrence during his early years. It’s not that people didn’t recognise his ability, just that they wanted more fight and if he didn’t score or set up a goal, it wasn’t good enough for them, and you know how irrational people become when their team loses; some things never change.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

@Bus-Conductor , there's no point continuing our disagreement about dropping Dele, we just see it differently.

As for Glenn, I can assure you there were plenty who thought he was the wrong type of player to play every week in a struggling team. I can clearly remember the calls to drag him off when we went a couple of goals down, which was sadly not an infrequent occurrence during his early years. It’s not that people didn’t recognise his ability, just that they wanted more fight and if he didn’t score or set up a goal, it wasn’t good enough for them, and you know how irrational people become when their team loses; some things never change.

Although I started going to games in the mid/late seventies, I only started going every week around 1980 onwards, by then Hoddle had become pretty much adored by most that I can remember. The odd moan when he didn't tackle, but no one ever wanted him benched. By then he was probably the best player of his kind in Europe bar Platini.

 

[stevespurs]

Alli and Hoddle are apples and oranges tbh. Very different styles.

And dropping a kid as young and naive as Alli, is definitely a good thing long term in my eyes too. He’s had good moments this season, but not as good as last year. But Son is a worthy replacement, offers goals and energy too.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Too young to see Hoddle live but I grew up watching enough of my dads VHS recording of him/ games he played in to know that he and Dele shouldn’t be compared.

Dele is a wonderful taken and could be a great player, he’s already very good. Hoddle could be argued to be the greatest playmaker of all time.

 

[JimmyG2]

Season 2017/8. All goals and assists
Total (Combined - Name - Goals - Assists)
16 - Harry Kane - 14 - 2
10 - Dele Alli - 7 - 3
7 - Christian Eriksen - 4 - 3
7 - Kieran Trippier - 0 - 7
6 - Heung-Min Son - 4 - 2
4 - Ben Davies - 2 - 2
3 - Moussa Sissoko - 2 - 1
1 - Toby Alderweireld - 0 - 1
1 - Eric Dier - 0 - 1
+ 2 own goals

From Spurs Community
Just saying, although I'm not a great one for statistics
unless they back up what my eyes are telling me.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Season 2017/8. All goals and assists
Total (Combined - Name - Goals - Assists)
16 - Harry Kane - 14 - 2
10 - Dele Alli - 7 - 3
7 - Christian Eriksen - 4 - 3
7 - Kieran Trippier - 0 - 7
6 - Heung-Min Son - 4 - 2
4 - Ben Davies - 2 - 2
3 - Moussa Sissoko - 2 - 1
1 - Toby Alderweireld - 0 - 1
1 - Eric Dier - 0 - 1
+ 2 own goals

From Spurs Community
Just saying, although I'm not a great one for statistics
unless they back up what my eyes are telling me.

Premier League (Combined - Name - Goals - Assists)
9 - Harry Kane - 8 - 1
5 - Christian Eriksen - 3 - 2
4 - Ben Davies - 2 - 2
4 - Dele Alli - 3 - 1
4 - Kieran Trippier - 0 - 4
2 - Heung-Min Son - 2 - 0
1 - Moussa Sissoko - 1 - 0
+ 1 own goal

 

[stevenqoz]

Although I started going to games in the mid/late seventies, I only started going every week around 1980 onwards, by then Hoddle had become pretty much adored by most that I can remember. The odd moan when he didn't tackle, but no one ever wanted him benched. By then he was probably the best player of his kind in Europe bar Platini.

In his first season Spurs had Glenn almost in the forward line for a couple of games....I can't remember if this was some sort of punishment for lack of workrate

 

[Bus-Conductor]

In his first season Spurs had Glenn almost in the forward line for a couple of games....I can't remember if this was some sort of punishment for lack of workrate

If he'd been born in France, Spain or Italy, his whole career would have been spent playing as a "10" in the Platini type role, as English football in the seventies/early eighties couldn't see past 442 with two strikers, he spent his whole Spurs career just about playing/starting 20/30 yards deeper than was ideal.

 

[stevenqoz]

If he'd been born in France, Spain or Italy, his whole career would have been spent playing as a "10" in the Platini type role, as English football in the seventies/early eighties couldn't see past 442 with two strikers, he spent his whole Spurs career just about playing/starting 20/30 yards deeper than was ideal.

I suppose it was a situation of its time. Bryan Robson valued over a Hoddle....Wilkins over Hudson's and Currie's. That deep rooted suspicion of any player who may not be willing to just tackle and run