Should we have re-signed Berbatov?

[stemark44]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. AT THE TIME, ade was a no brainer IMO. Also, I have seen Berba a few times this season, and while he hs been excellent in some games, he has done his usual dissapreaing act as well. You say he wouldnt have to run around and work for the team as his class would show through, I think AVB would have something to say aboutb that. I honestly think they would not of got on as Berba likes to be the main man, like he was when he was a yid and like he is now at Fulham. His stupid t-shirt made me realise that it probably would not of worked

I have been watching Berbatov for a good few years now and I can categorically state that I have NEVER EVER seen him play like he had never even seen a football before in his life.......................I certainly can't say the same about Adebayor who at times this season couldn't trap a bag of cement.

 

[E17yid]

I suppose of my problem with this thread is that it assumes that we have already fucked up our season. I would rather save my "why the fuck didn't we sign Berba" speech untill the end of the season. If we get 4th then we didn't need to sign anyone? Unless you think Berba would have us challenging for the league??

 

[stemark44]

No but we certainly wouldn't be looking over our shoulders now and worrying about a Champions League spot.

 

[E17yid]

No but we certainly wouldn't be looking over our shoulders now and worrying about a Champions League spot.

Perhaps

 

[EastLondonYid]

No but we certainly wouldn't be looking over our shoulders now and worrying about a Champions League spot.

There is no way you can be sure of that, who's to say Bale would have turned into Ronaldo and Messi rolled into one if Berba was here...he may have but equally he may have not have,i don't think we finished in the top 4 when berba was here anyway but we have twice and probably 3 times since he jumped ship...so there

 

[AngerManagement]

Your right, I certainly do not know for sure, kinda what my whole argument is to be fair, not just about the t-shirt but the whole question in the OP in general. I don't like dealing with absolutes, especially in football.

If the t-shirt was a bit of banter that he was made to put on by his team (something I find hard to believe) then surely that would support the argument that he likes to be the main man and enjoys the attention? Would players at Spurs have made him a t-shirt, would he of still made one himself?

My whole argument has revolved around the idea that we do not know if this was even posiible, and if it was it is not as simple as looking at one variable (he scores goals) and igoring a host of others that can pop up in football. I accept he is a better player than Dempsey (albeit different positions and different types of players who offer different things) but sometimes you have to look at the squad and what benefits the team. Obviously, with hindsight, it looks to be a no brainer but at the time we signed a player who got us 18 goals last year and supposedly turned down a player (a player we do not know even wanted to come) who was not the best fit with AVB's set-up.

T-shirts and interviews may not be a conclusive indication of someone personality but at least I have used things I have seen and heard with my own eyes to form an opinion rather than no evidence at all. He has an egp, I think we all accept that, certainly not a bad thing for a striker to have mind you but I just think there are many things that may have arised that would resulted in Berba not being the hit everyone thinks he would be but I also accept the fact he could of been a hit again.

The t shirt I am suggesting is irrelevant as we don't know anything about the circumstances that lead to him wearing it and to assume anything in regards to what it means is futile by your own logic of dismissing peoples assumptions when they do not personally know the details (so by your own logic should not even be mentioned)

You're whole arguement was saying you thought Berbatov would not have done as well for us as he has at Fulham, or at least you back tracked that to he may not have and may not have been a better signing than Dempsey because of Dempsey's work rate (also that you thought he may not have out performed Ade or Defoe)

Yes we don't know if we could have signed him, I and pretty much everyone else have stated that several times so I don't get why you're suddenly using that as part of your arguement when its just an argreement. The point at which your opinion disagreed with mine was when you stated that you though HAD WE SIGNED HIM (thus for the sake of discussion over riding the ifs and buts of why we didn't) you didn't feel he would have performed as well as he has at Fulham and didn't think he would have been a good signing for us (due to his personality and lack of work rate etc)

As for hindsight, well you didn't need hindsight because Berbatov has been a class act since we signed him and in fact long before that in the German league, no one needed to see him do well at Fulham to know he was a class act, he'd proved it year in year out already.

My point is this...... Berbatov is and always has been a better player than Dempsey
Berbatov would have been a better signing than Dempsey for us
Berbatov would have made us a better team and we would be doing better than we are now had we signed him

His T Shirt doesn't do anything to lessen my opinion that had we signed him instead of Dempsey we would have wrapped up CL football by now

Whether we actually could have signed him I don't know, but then that's a very different discussion to the one you and I have engaged in in this thread isn't it

 

[AngerManagement]

There is no way you can be sure of that, who's to say Bale would have turned into Ronaldo and Messi rolled into one if Berba was here...he may have but equally he may have not have,i don't think we finished in the top 4 when berba was here anyway but we have twice and probably 3 times since he jumped ship...so there

Who's to say Bale wouldn't be playing even better if he had Berbatov to link up with and someone with Berbatov's movement to make space for him as well as take advantage of his own creativity (more assists for Bale etc)

Berbatov very much made Keane look 3 times the player he actually was and its very likely Bale would have continued to improve along side Berba too

As for us finishing higher since Berbatov has left, well that is due to the improvement in the rest of the team, certainly not because we replaced him with a better striker because quite clearly we didn't and who know's where we would have finished had we somehow had him in addition to the team that developed after he left (aside for the strikers)

 

[E17yid]

The t shirt I am suggesting is irrelevant as we don't know anything about the circumstances that lead to him wearing it and to assume anything in regards to what it means is futile by your own logic of dismissing peoples assumptions when they do not personally know the details (so by your own logic should not even be mentioned)

You're whole arguement was saying you thought Berbatov would not have done as well for us as he has at Fulham, or at least you back tracked that to he may not have and may not have been a better signing than Dempsey because of Dempsey's work rate (also that you thought he may not have out performed Ade or Defoe)

Yes we don't know if we could have signed him, I and pretty much everyone else have stated that several times so I don't get why you're suddenly using that as part of your arguement when its just an argreement. The point at which your opinion disagreed with mine was when you stated that you though HAD WE SIGNED HIM (thus for the sake of discussion over riding the ifs and buts of why we didn't) you didn't feel he would have performed as well as he has at Fulham and didn't think he would have been a good signing for us (due to his personality and lack of work rate etc)

As for hindsight, well you didn't need hindsight because Berbatov has been a class act since we signed him and in fact long before that in the German league, no one needed to see him do well at Fulham to know he was a class act, he'd proved it year in year out already.

My point is this...... Berbatov is and always has been a better player than Dempsey
Berbatov would have been a better signing than Dempsey for us
Berbatov would have made us a better team and we would be doing better than we are now had we signed him

His T Shirt doesn't do anything to lessen my opinion that had we signed him instead of Dempsey we would have wrapped up CL football by now

Whether we actually could have signed him I don't know, but then that's a very different discussion to the one you and I have engaged in in this thread isn't it

My opening 2 posts were simply stating that there were other variables that should be considered before using sentences like "He certainly would of made us challenge for the league" I neither said he would of failed at spurs or that he would of been a sucess just that it's not as easy as saying he is class, he scores goals therefore he would of been a sucess. That's all mate. I don't think I have backtracked at all.

I know this scenario is a scenario that in your opinion was an impossibility but what would you say if we did sign him and he had a season like Ade?

 

[AngerManagement]

My opening 2 posts were simply stating that there were other variables that should be considered before using sentences like "He certainly would of made us challenge for the league" I neither said he would of failed at spurs or that he would of been a sucess just that it's not as easy as saying he is class, he scores goals therefore he would of been a sucess. That's all mate. I don't think I have backtracked at all.

I know this scenario is a scenario that in your opinion was an impossibility but what would you say if we did sign him and he had a season like Ade?

The thing is Berbatov is far less likely to have a season like Ade

Ade is famed for starting off on fire then turning to shit, Soccer Am used it in a sketch before he signed on loan for us with a performances over time chart of Ade at every club he ever played for (it's not THAT surprising that Ade has flopped this year in my eyes)

Berbatov on the other had has always performed to a high standard, he was very consistent with us and made his strike partners appear better than they were. At Man U even when he was not the main man (pretty much his whole time there) he still always scored goals and played well for the duration of his time there, he's continued to do it at Fulham in a limited team where his team mates are far from creative and not set up for his style of play like we are (although they've adjusted to suit him somewhat from the way they played last year to suit Dempsey)

I live near Fulham's stadium, I know several Fulham season ticket holders who watch him week in week out and I have seen a fair amount of him myself this year he's looked pretty great all season considering the team he's playing in (not easy for a striker in a losing team)

You can call it hindsight if you like, but a guy who has always produced in our league year in year out shouldn't really be doubted

As for if he had signed and had a season like Ade, yes that would have been disappointing but what reason is there to suggest that would be the case? he's never had a season like Ade. I know you don't like dealing with absolute's but then if you want to get pedantic about it nothing is absolute Messi could be signed and not do well (potentially) but of course it's realistic to say he would in fact do well and by the same logic I believe it's realistic to say a man like Berbatov who has always produced in the PL would have done so with us again

 

[EastLondonYid]

Who's to say Bale wouldn't be playing even better if he had Berbatov to link up with and someone with Berbatov's movement to make space for him as well as take advantage of his own creativity (more assists for Bale etc)

Berbatov very much made Keane look 3 times the player he actually was and its very likely Bale would have continued to improve along side Berba too

As for us finishing higher since Berbatov has left, well that is due to the improvement in the rest of the team, certainly not because we replaced him with a better striker because quite clearly we didn't and who know's where we would have finished had we somehow had him in addition to the team that developed after he left (aside for the strikers)

Lets talk facts for a minute then mate.. your point ive highlighted isn't

FACT..Bale has turned into a monster without Berba
FACT..We are a top 4 side now ..we wern't with Berba
FACT.we have improved as a team since berba left..

Berba is a class player, yes, but that doesn't gaurentee we would have made the progress we have over the last 4 years if he was here, its not as simple as that, players sometimes respond to others better its not just about Berba is better than what we have, its also about how players gel.
I do rate Berba, but i am not pining for him at all,like someone else mentioned, i trust avb on this one, and most other top coaches around the prem and europe who were hardly fighting over themselves to sign him at such a low price.

 

[E17yid]

The thing is Berbatov is far less likely to have a season like Ade

Ade is famed for starting off on fire then turning to shit, Soccer Am used it in a sketch before he signed on loan for us with a performances over time chart of Ade at every club he ever played for (it's not THAT surprising that Ade has flopped this year in my eyes)

Berbatov on the other had has always performed to a high standard, he was very consistent with us and made his strike partners appear better than they were. At Man U even when he was not the main man (pretty much his whole time there) he still always scored goals and played well for the duration of his time there, he's continued to do it at Fulham in a limited team where his team mates are far from creative and not set up for his style of play like we are (although they've adjusted to suit him somewhat from the way they played last year to suit Dempsey)

I live near Fulham's stadium, I know several Fulham season ticket holders who watch him week in week out and I have seen a fair amount of him myself this year he's looked pretty great all season considering the team he's playing in (not easy for a striker in a losing team)

You can call it hindsight if you like, but a guy who has always produced in our league year in year out shouldn't really be doubted

As for if he had signed and had a season like Ade, yes that would have been disappointing but what reason is there to suggest that would be the case? he's never had a season like Ade. I know you don't like dealing with absolute's but then if you want to get pedantic about it nothing is absolute Messi could be signed and not do well (potentially) but of course it's realistic to say he would in fact do well and by the same logic I believe it's realistic to say a man like Berbatov who has always produced in the PL would have done so with us again

Fair do's bud. TBH, I have not taken issue with many points you have raised and agree with a lot of what you say. I love Berbva, as I've said before. I'm just very happy with how things have gone this season, i'll wait untill then end of the season to voice any concerns if it's warrented?

 

[AngerManagement]

Lets talk facts for a minute then mate.. your point ive highlighted isn't

FACT..Bale has turned into a monster without Berba
FACT..We are a top 4 side now ..we wern't with Berba
FACT.we have improved as a team since berba left..

Berba is a class player, yes, but that doesn't gaurentee we would have made the progress we have over the last 4 years if he was here, its not as simple as that, players sometimes respond to others better its not just about Berba is better than what we have, its also about how players gel.
I do rate Berba, but i am not pining for him at all,like someone else mentioned, i trust avb on this one, and most other top coaches around the prem and europe who were hardly fighting over themselves to sign him at such a low price.

the statement I made about Bale was in reference to your own statement that clearly isn't a fact, you raised question as to whether or not Bale would have become a monster had Berbatov been in our team....yea fact is he has and there's no reason to suggest he wouldn't have still

Same with the top four statement, we did so because we improved as a team (taking both your remaining facts into account) we have done this inspite of lacking a decent striker, Berbatov may have had to leave to provide us the funds to build this better team I accept but regardless we currently have a great team but terrible strikers, Berbatov is a great striker and was available in the summer so it stands to reason that would have been better with an actual striker ahead of that team which as become a top four team (because FACT our current strikers have scored 2 goals in 2013)

 

[AngerManagement]

Fair do's bud. TBH, I have not taken issue with many points you have raised and agree with a lot of what you say. I love Berbva, as I've said before. I'm just very happy with how things have gone this season, i'll wait untill then end of the season to voice any concerns if it's warrented?

I am also pretty happy with how things are going, although I feel the last 2 seasons we have been good enough to play CL football and have lost out due to our striking situation which we have failed to rectify

If we obtain CL football this year it will be in spite of our strikers and if we again miss out due to the striker situation I will question why we are repeating the same mistakes

It didn't and doesn't have to be Berbatov we even bring in, but last season we suffered from only having Ade (even when on form) and Defoe at the club hence we brought in Saha (not to mention we had the fairly prolific VdV in the team too) and yet somehow we believed this year we only needed Ade and Defoe and to top that off Ade's form has gone to shit yet still we've left our strikers as they are

I really hope Bale continues to compensate for our strikers and we crawl over the line to win the race for fourth, but honestly I think when we were bidding for JM on the last day of the window had we spent some of that money on a striker i.e. Berbatov we wouldn't be looking over our shoulder, we'd be looking at Man U if our strikers were even close to matching the quality of the rest of our first team and that's frustrating to me

 

[EastLondonYid]

the statement I made about Bale was in reference to your own statement that clearly isn't a fact, you raised question as to whether or not Bale would have become a monster had Berbatov been in our team....yea fact is he has and there's no reason to suggest he wouldn't have still

Same with the top four statement, we did so because we improved as a team (taking both your remaining facts into account) we have done this inspite of lacking a decent striker, Berbatov may have had to leave to provide us the funds to build this better team I accept but regardless we currently have a great team but terrible strikers, Berbatov is a great striker and was available in the summer so it stands to reason that would have been better with an actual striker ahead of that team which as become a top four team (because FACT our current strikers have scored 2 goals in 2013)

We could go on like this all day..FACT.

At the end of the day i am happy to be sat in 3rd and still in europe with shit strikers, lets hope we are equally as shit next year and sat exactly where we are....

Alls good fella..

 

[AngerManagement]

We could go on like this all day..FACT.

At the end of the day i am happy to be sat in 3rd and still in europe with shit strikers, lets hope we are equally as shit next year and sat exactly where we are....

Alls good fella..

YEa I agree, but are you not at all frustrated by our strikers not matching the quality of the rest of our team? not least because this has been the case for about 6 windows in a row and in my opinion cost us CL football 2 years in a row and making it less comfortable than it could be again this year?

I honestly feel if we had just one striker at top who was even close to matching the quality of those behind him we'd be well clear of Arsenal and Chelsea currently

 

[E17yid]

I am also pretty happy with how things are going, although I feel the last 2 seasons we have been good enough to play CL football and have lost out due to our striking situation which we have failed to rectify

If we obtain CL football this year it will be in spite of our strikers and if we again miss out due to the striker situation I will question why we are repeating the same mistakes

It didn't and doesn't have to be Berbatov we even bring in, but last season we suffered from only having Ade (even when on form) and Defoe at the club hence we brought in Saha (not to mention we had the fairly prolific VdV in the team too) and yet somehow we believed this year we only needed Ade and Defoe and to top that off Ade's form has gone to shit yet still we've left our strikers as they are

I really hope Bale continues to compensate for our strikers and we crawl over the line to win the race for fourth, but honestly I think when we were bidding for JM on the last day of the window had we spent some of that money on a striker i.e. Berbatov we wouldn't be looking over our shoulder, we'd be looking at Man U if our strikers were even close to matching the quality of the rest of our first team and that's frustrating to me

Hard to argue with that, and I shan't try. What I would say is that Bale may not have stepped up to the plate if we had Ade or JD banging them in (To be fair to JD he had a great start, as ususal) But I think that is a bit of a BS point as while he may not have socred as much I still believe, like most, that we would still see an increase in his performances like we have this year, and hopefully next year as well??? I suppose we were in for Damioa but none of that helps us now.

We had a bit of sucess with 4 4 2 this year and if that had carried on being successful (JD and Ade both socring) then we may have left Bale out wide. I don't give a shit how many we score or who scores as long as we get 4th. I personally don't think 2nd was ever really achievable this year, unless Levy dug deep, which we all know he wont

 

[AngerManagement]

Hard to argue with that, and I shan't try. What I would say is that Bale may not have stepped up to the plate if we had Ade or JD banging them in (To be fair to JD he had a great start, as ususal) But I think that is a bit of a BS point as while he may not have socred as much I still believe, like most, that we would still see an increase in his performances like we have this year, and hopefully next year as well??? I suppose we were in for Damioa but none of that helps us now.

We had a bit of sucess with 4 4 2 this year and if that had carried on being successful (JD and Ade both socring) then we may have left Bale out wide. I don't give a shit how many we score or who scores as long as we get 4th. I personally don't think 2nd was ever really achievable this year, unless Levy dug deep, which we all know he wont

Bale's rise is great, but being so reliant on one player is risky

Not to mention that when one single player outshines his team mates it becomes harder to keep them at the club

Really we need Adebayor to step up now, to be fair to him (and I guess Defoe) we're not that creative in terms of presenting them with direct chances when defences are tightly locked but we need someone to step up and be clinical and really that should be one of your strikers

With Defoe out and now no chance to bring someone in, short of a youngsters getting and taking a chance, Adebayor really has to refind some form if we're going to end the season the way we want it

Expect BErbatov threads and posts to emerge everytime he plays well in the meantime until our own strikers step up (and Benteke and pretty much any half decent striker percieved to have been available)

 

[E17yid]

Bale's rise is great, but being so reliant on one player is risky

Not to mention that when one single player outshines his team mates it becomes harder to keep them at the club

Really we need Adebayor to step up now, to be fair to him (and I guess Defoe) we're not that creative in terms of presenting them with direct chances when defences are tightly locked but we need someone to step up and be clinical and really that should be one of your strikers

With Defoe out and now no chance to bring someone in, short of a youngsters getting and taking a chance, Adebayor really has to refind some form if we're going to end the season the way we want it

Expect BErbatov threads and posts to emerge everytime he plays well in the meantime until our own strikers step up (and Benteke and pretty much any half decent striker percieved to have been available)[/quote

Ade has to step up but even I have given up on him. There is still a slight chance he might score us 3 or 4 important goals but I'm not holding my breath, that miss against Swansea (to make it 2-0) summed up his season.

In Bale we trust.........And Super Jan

 

[stemark44]

There is no way you can be sure of that, who's to say Bale would have turned into Ronaldo and Messi rolled into one if Berba was here...he may have but equally he may have not have,i don't think we finished in the top 4 when berba was here anyway but we have twice and probably 3 times since he jumped ship...so there

We won a cup when he was here.........we haven't since.
Lets not forget that we had Jermain Jenas/Tom Huddlestone and Didier Zokora in midfield and 'butter fingers' Huerelmo Gomes in nets when Berbatov was here.

 

[BK007]

If Kaboul manages to get back we could put Jan up top.