The anti-Stratford protests begin!

[bigturnip]

I think it is only prudent to presume that ENIC will, at some stage, sell the club to the highest bidder. The nature of business and indeed life is that all things are impermanent, so either the club ceases to exist, or it is sold.

The question we should perhaps be asking, is whether there is a conflict of interest between ENIC and the fans. ENIC are undoubtedly interested, primarily, in a return on investment, while the fans are primarily concerned about the club as a going concern as well as competing for honours. The location of the club is also quite important. The order of those priorities is perhaps down to the individual.

So is there a conflict of interest between the first two, and the attempt to realise a return on investment? I would say, not necessarily, the three pretty much go hand in hand.

It comes down to a question of how much financial difference will it make? Is that financial difference enough to justify leaving our current home?
At what cost should we stay where we are?
What material difference would the savings and additional revenue make to the chances of success of the team?


As you mention, until we have the figures it is difficult to make a decision. Unfortunately, we might not actually get the detailed costings, so we have to base our decision on other information.

The first is a question of the level of trust we have in the board? And this is largely predicated on whether there is an actual conflict of interest betweeen maximising shareholder returns and progressing the future of the football club.

Personally, I think the two are interlinked, so I would give the benefit of the doubt to the board, because if it improves the value of the club, then it will have a trickle down effect on the team.

Benefit of the doubt? It doesn't even register with me that anybody could conceive gambling the future of their club on giving the board the benefit of the doubt, we're not talking about financial problems, dodgy signings or the price of half time pies, this is the entire existence of Tottenham we're risking here.

 

[MattyP]

Benefit of the doubt? It doesn't even register with me that anybody could conceive gambling the future of their club on giving the board the benefit of the doubt, we're not talking about financial problems, dodgy signings or the price of half time pies, this is the entire existence of Tottenham we're risking here.

Worst case scenario, yes it's the very existence of Tottenham we're risking here, and that argument works for both pro and anti Stratford.

Rationally speaking, I do think it is arguably the biggest decision in our history, save for maybe setting the club up in the first place.

 

[smokesoapbar]

I genuinely cannot fathom how so many people are quite happy to move to Stratford because, "if it's good for business, it's good for business."

*Logs off ENICCommunity*

 

[roosh]

Benefit of the doubt? It doesn't even register with me that anybody could conceive gambling the future of their club on giving the board the benefit of the doubt, we're not talking about financial problems, dodgy signings or the price of half time pies, this is the entire existence of Tottenham we're risking here.

When I say benefit of the doubt, I meant it euphemistically. I cannot see how ENIC seeking to maximise a return on their investment negatively impacts on the future prospects of the club, given that on the field success and the future as a going concern are inextricably linked to the former.

We are not actually talking about the entire existence of Tottenham, what we are talking about is the location of Tottenham Hostpur Football Club. Spurs will not cease to exist if we move to stratford, nor will they cease to exist if we stay put.

The gamble on the future of the club is represented by staying put and redeveloping the current location, because it will mean increased costs and potentially lower revenues. As said, spurs will not cease to exist, but the added cost of staying in NP could slow the progress of the team.


The question is, how much will the difference in cost (as well as projected revenues) be? and how would that affect our development? If it is marginal, by all means stay put. If it is significant, then the move should be considered - so as not to gamble with the future of the club.

The issue I see, is that I don't think that Levy & Co. would be considering the move if the difference wasn't significant, because there is an added value of staying in the area where the club developed.

That is perhaps what those who want to stay should be focusing on, is what that value actually is, apart from sentimental value. If it can be shown to have significant monetary value (like Goodwill can have), then it would start to hold more sway with the money men.

 

[roosh]

I genuinely cannot fathom how so many people are quite happy to move to Stratford because, "if it's good for business, it's good for business."

*Logs off ENICCommunity*

It's more a case of, "if its good for business, it's good for spurs"

 

[stevenqoz]

In truth this is about power,control and influence. As some have alluded to, the interests of fans, the club and ENIC have travelled side by side since that investment group got involved at the club. Daniel Levy has been the bridge between those fans, their club, all it represents and ENIC who are the effective owners. While ENIC have legal control of Spurs through a shareholder voting majority they can take the club in any direction that suits them and up to now most stakeholders would agree that direction has been a desirable one. If ENIC rely solely on the power that ownership gives them they could well undermine their own investment because fans can influence the environment the club operates within. Direct action such as protests and boycotts can bring influence to bear but other more subtle tactics can hurt just as much. Hence, the Man Utd Green and Gold campaign is avery visual reminder to the owners that all is not well......of course it also hits merchandising revenue as well. Something similar may be tried by fan groups at THFC.
That said, ultimate power and contol remain with ENIC, fans attempts to influence policy and direction can end up seeming detrimental.
I for one am pissed off that here with our best side for years the onfield excellence is likely to be overshadowed by off-field machinations. I fear that the victory, if achieved by the N17 group will be a pyrrhic one because Levy and ENIC may just pick their ball up and go home selling up in the process and possibly pushing us back down with the also runs to wallow in the opulence that is associated with Tottenham and it's surrounds.

 

[bigturnip]

We are not actually talking about the entire existence of Tottenham

That is exactly what it is to me, the club is no more if they aren't playing in Tottenham

 

[AngerManagement]

That is exactly what it is to me, the club is no more if they aren't playing in Tottenham

Say the club is awarded the right to build in Stratford and plans go ahead.

When would you stop supporting the club?

As soon as it is announced that we will move? or when we play our last game in N17?

(or say as soon as an AFC Tottenham type club is born from the unrest of anti stratford fans?)

 

[bigturnip]

I for one am pissed off that here with our best side for years the onfield excellence is likely to be overshadowed by off-field machinations. I fear that the victory, if achieved by the N17 group will be a pyrrhic one because Levy and ENIC may just pick their ball up and go home selling up in the process and possibly pushing us back down with the also runs to wallow in the opulence that is associated with Tottenham and it's surrounds.

If it means we stay in Tottenham, then so be it, but all this talk that somehow staying in Tottenham is going to push the club back into the dark ages is complete nonsense, we've done quite well there for the last 128 years and there's no reason that can't continue.

 

[bigturnip]

Say the club is awarded the right to build in Stratford and plans go ahead.

When would you stop supporting the club?

As soon as it is announced that we will move? or when we play our last game in N17?

(or say as soon as an AFC Tottenham type club is born from the unrest of anti stratford fans?)

I'm fairly sure I've made this clear on numerous occasions, but just to be absolutely clear, the club will have my support until the day I die.

Assuming DL and the directors decide to take up the OS I won't be financially contributing a penny to the club once they have signed the club's death warrant. I won't be offering any support to Stratford Hotspur, in fact I wish it every misfortune possible.

If the club ceases to exist due to DL and the directors taking up the OS option I will be waiting with open arms to welcome it's return, whether that be through the resurrection of the current club or in the form of a new club based on the values, history (don't forget MK Dons returned all their honours to Wimbledon after a legal challenge) and community of the previous incarnation.

 

[stevenqoz]

Nonsense? That is your opinion. Do you believe that Levy and Co are this just for fun with the fall back staying in Tottenham just as good? Rooted in this argument is the reality that our quaint / boutique WHL stadium (that has served us so well for so long) is no longer up to the job. Levy is criticised for being the businessman in all this seeking the most profitable return for himself and ENIC but beneath it all many then seem to refuse to believe that businessman's judgemnent that a switch to the OS will be better for the club's financial and competitive future. The truth lies in an amount of 0-200m difference. Levy has judged that true amount is big enough to riSk uprooting the club 5m and going further to the NE. Perhaps Spurs need to have an auxiliary share issue of 200m subscribed to by those wanting to stay at WHL regardless of financial and commercial considerations. A good way of fans putting their money where their mouth is eh? That 200m plus 250m from ENIC would enable us to build the NDP but I wonder is everyone willing to take the risk?

 

[bigturnip]

Nonsense? That is your opinion. Do you believe that Levy and Co are this just for fun with the fall back staying in Tottenham just as good? Rooted in this argument is the reality that our quaint / boutique WHL stadium (that has served us so well for so long) is no longer up to the job. Levy is criticised for being the businessman in all this seeking the most profitable return for himself and ENIC but beneath it all many then seem to refuse to believe that businessman's judgemnent that a switch to the OS will be better for the club's financial and competitive future. The truth lies in an amount of 0-200m difference. Levy has judged that true amount is big enough to riSk uprooting the club 5m and going further to the NE. Perhaps Spurs need to have an auxiliary share issue of 200m subscribed to by those wanting to stay at WHL regardless of financial and commercial considerations. A good way of fans putting their money where their mouth is eh? That 200m plus 250m from ENIC would enable us to build the NDP but I wonder is everyone willing to take the risk?

Of course it's my opinion, my opinion can't be nonsense, it is what it is. If you are happy to support a club in Stratford then that's your opinion, it's one I don't share, to me Tottenham Hotspur is inextricably linked to Tottenham, without that link the club ceases to exist.

The OS is actually to the SE, perhaps you should learn where the proposed new stadium is going to be built before you start talking it up.

And don't get me started on the erroneous £200m figure that seems to have been plucked from thin air.

 

[smokesoapbar]

Ah bugger it - it's only a hour and a half - two hour walk to Stratford from Tottenham High Road. It's nothing! It's round the corner.

 

[bigturnip]

Ah bugger it - it's only a hour and a half - two hour walk to Stratford from Tottenham High Road. It's nothing! It's round the corner.

Probably nearer 3 hours once you've had a few pre-match pints in the B&H.

 

[stevenqoz]

BT don't know where your from or how long you have been a Spurs supporter but I'm a 600 gamer over 48 years as a supporter. Born and bred in Hackney, N1, E8, E9 and E2. Played football on North, South and East Marsh. Boxed at Eton Manor/Eton Mission which were right there. Met my good wife outside the old Spooky Lady club which was right there in that corner of Hackney. I'm pretty familiar with the place and used to go to the O's who were everyones second team. I actually said
0-200..... of which the latter I believe to be the closer but thats just a guess. Please don't be like others in this debate and believe that people not in agreement with your point of view have in some way sold out or are lesser Spurs supporters than you. There are shades of grey in this.

 

[spursphil]

I'm fairly sure I've made this clear on numerous occasions, but just to be absolutely clear, the club will have my support until the day I die.

Assuming DL and the directors decide to take up the OS I won't be financially contributing a penny to the club once they have signed the club's death warrant. I won't be offering any support to Stratford Hotspur, in fact I wish it every misfortune possible.

If the club ceases to exist due to DL and the directors taking up the OS option I will be waiting with open arms to welcome it's return, whether that be through the resurrection of the current club or in the form of a new club based on the values, history (don't forget MK Dons returned all their honours to Wimbledon after a legal challenge) and community of the previous incarnation.

I know you have strong feelings on the subject and that has to be respected but come on. You would wish the club every misfortune possible.

When i think of the many clubs that have been run by sharks Brighton for instance had their ground sold from under them and have been nomads every since, there fans have still followed them. Thankfully they are moving into a new stadium next season, not in Brighton but they are over the moon they have their own ground again.

Charlton were run so bad by got into serious financial problems Their fantastic East Terrace which was massive and held 45,000 had to be closed down after the Bradford fire diaster. The grounds owner even wanted to sell part of the site for housing.
The club were forced to leave the valley and move in with Crystal Palace, did their fans take your stance, no no a bit of it, they followed their club.
They formed a single issue Political Party (the valley party) and stood in the local elections which aided there return. They formed the valley gold investment scheme to raise funds to return home. Wimbledon moved into share at selhurst Park and Charlton had to move in With West Ham before returning to the valley, if it wasn't for the fans sticking with the club, they would have gone bust.

Maidstone United were an ex league club who's chairman sold their old ground in Maidstone to MFI. They Moved in with Dartford. Soon upgrades had to be made to Dartfords ground to accomodate a maidstone promotion, Maidstone soon went bust, but Dartford had to pay back Maidstone £500,000 for ground improvements, they didn't have the money so had to sell their ground to pay the debt.
Both clubs folded. Both reformed but at the bottom of the non league pyramid, Dartford spent 14 years in the wilderness sharing at various different clubs before returning to their home town in 2006.
Maidstone United are currently sharing at Ashford Town which is nothing short of a field, and they have not played a game in their home town since 1988.

Spare a thought for Cray Wanderers who play in the Ryman Premier League. They are the 2nd oldest club in the WORLD formed in 1860 they lost their ground and moved to a field in Sidcup with nothing in the way of facilities. They then moved to Bromley FC on a groundshare, they have not played on their home patch for 38 YEARS!!!!!

The point i am trying to make is many clubs have had a far worse deal then what you may possible face. In the case of the non league clubs they may have had only 200/300 fans following them but it kept their clubs afloat Those loyal fans stood by there clubs in the face of extinction, they stood by their clubs, and for some they would dearly like to play at a ground that was only 5 miles from where they originate.

None of these clubs have the prospect of moving into a state of the art stadium with fantastic facilties and superb transport links.

So if Spurs do move to Stratford and a Pheonix club is formed in Tottenham, here's a tip, i wouldn't whine to other non league fans at a match or on a non league forum about Tottenham moving 5 miles! at worst they will laugh but you would get not a shred of sympathy.

 

[EastLondonYid]

That is exactly what it is to me, the club is no more if they aren't playing in Tottenham

Stop it...your making too much sense.

I don't think i could ever stop supporting spurs, its massive in our house, my 2 sons ,daughter and even wife...are all spurs through and through..

but i agree with everything you say......i don't get anyone who doesn't mind moving.

We harp on about the scum being from Woolwich 100 years ago, and now think its ok if we move out of north london....Hypocrites!!

like i said before, you don't really know who your arguing with on football sites, and what the club really means to them.

 

[michaelden]

Clarification

A few points here to prevent unnecessary repition: -

1. We DO NOT have to change the name of the club if we move. This has been agreed by the FA and Spurs have said they won't be changing the name. Lammy and his lawsuit have no basis in fact. As any of the many UK legal professionals on this site.
2. Those of you talking of forming a breakaway club in Tottenham may do so now if you wish. You may even call it Tottenham FC. You may not call it Tottenham Hotspur FC. You may even start a fans forum and call it TottsCommunity.co.uk but not SpursCommunity.co.uk

Are we clear on these 2 points. No spin. So please stop posting misinformation to try and bolster your arguement.

**If I am wrong please let me know. I have not checked if Tottenham FC is a registered club or company yet.

 

[michaelden]

Stop it...your making too much sense.

I don't think i could ever stop supporting spurs, its massive in our house, my 2 sons ,daughter and even wife...are all spurs through and through..

but i agree with everything you say......i don't get anyone who doesn't mind moving.

We harp on about the scum being from Woolwich 100 years ago, and now think its ok if we move out of north london....Hypocrites!!

like i said before, you don't really know who your arguing with on football sites, and what the club really means to them.

I see this arguement pop up a lot. Just how proud are you that we've not moved? Do Arsenal fans really care for your pointy jests or "Wandering Pikey"?

I think that anyone who raises this as an argument is clutching at straws or has such little understanding of how the world including football has moved on in 100 years, that they fail to see flexibility as a strength opposed to steadfastness.

If a WHU fan calls me a wandering pikey after the move, I'll laugh and agree, then say, "Jealousy makes you nasty"

 

[talkshowhost86]

I see this arguement pop up a lot. Just how proud are you that we've not moved? Do Arsenal fans really care for your pointy jests or "Wandering Pikey"?

I think that anyone who raises this as an argument is clutching at straws or has such little understanding of how the world including football has moved on in 100 years, that they fail to see flexibility as a strength opposed to steadfastness.

If a WHU fan calls me a wandering pikey after the move, I'll laugh and agree, then say, "Jealousy makes you nasty"

Agreed. The idea that we'll somehow be losing the moral high ground over Arsenal is ridiculous and sounds like it comes from someone who hates Arsenal more than he loves Spurs.