The Jol Vote

[bugsdad]

That's a unique and very "special" way to interpret the results. How you came to that figure is a mystery to me.

Look at the poll or am I missing something.

 

[bugsdad]

I blame Uncle Martin for taking us to two 5th placed finishes and daring to make the club a name worth uttering once more.

How dare he get my support. How dare he. But all is long and forgotten in those late season days of October, with only 30 odd games left.



Guess who's in that 10%. :dance: Proud to be, too.

I admire your faith but feel its misplaced,but good luck to you anyway there always has to be some in the extreme minority,and they dont deserve persecution because of it ......I know from personal experience.

 

[JKSpurs]

good options on the poll.

I personally think the option of him staying to the end of the season is the only one as if he goes the caretaker is unlikely to be any better CA/ CH ? If a new manager is installed it cuts down our options and the last thing we need is another manager who we will be looking to replace in the next few years. If there was a caretaker who we could get in from outside who would do a job and not expect or want the full time responsiblty next season 9 when we get Maureen, then i'd consider that. Someone like El Tel (not El Tel ) but in that mould.

Wait until the end of the season and get the best person for the job Maureen.

 

[sloth]

But how have you come to the conclusion that he isn't good enough? Do you base it on the two seasons we finished 5th?

And before the start of this season I'd say he managed the board pretty well, don't you? Can you say otherwise? Is it even possible to?

Heh heh, I love a good argument with Stoof.

Anyway, this is the point, any sailor will tell you it's one thing to sail with the wind or across the wind, but the mark of a great sailor is someone who makes progress even when there's a dirty great gale threatening to capsize you.

Jol's in the teeth of a storm now, previously he's had things going in his direction. He came into a side with low expectations, turned them around, did very well for a couple of seasons, but this year things have gone against him. Three four weeks ago the clouds were on the horizon and the wind was getting up, but he had his chance to skirt it, he didn't. He's where he is because of the decisions he's made in crucial matches. A couple more wins instead of draws and there'd be questions but not the inquisition he's facing now, under pressure though he's cracked.

Worse he has no solution except to point out the problem and say we have to cut it out, that's poor. If the defence can't defend then that's down to him. If they don't have a man on the edge of the six yard box because this week they're going man to man, where before they were zonal that's Jol's fault. If the opposition has a free pop at goal in the first half which hits the post and then tries the exact same move in the second and scores, without the coach addressing the problem in the half-time break, whose fault is that?

What is the current situation? That we look like unprofessional monkeys that have undermined the manager. I'd say that's what my post was about, and that's the 'current situation' I was describing. So is that Jol's fault too? :lol:

The current situation is we've won one game all season, we've thrown away points from dumbass tactical decisions and most terrible of all we bear the mark of a condemned team. If the mark of a successful team is playing badly and still winning, all relegation fodder are scarred by the reverse formula: they lose (or draw) even when playing well.

I do think he's a good manager - I've seen him bring us to 5th finishes and a Calendar 4th in his first 3/4 season in charge. I don't suddenly think we've got a bad crop of players (as some seem to on here) - they're kids, they're young and they need time.

We've got a reasonable manager, but he's not the answer, he's a Tim Sherwood or Steve Sedgely, we need a Lineker or a Klinsmann.

We chose to buy kids - and by "we" I mean the Board (as they set the transfer policies) - so with that means waiting for them to reach their potential. We can't have it both ways - which is what I think they do. I can wait, maybe others can't. I doubt Jol will be around to see them flourish. A great shame.

Yes we did, but waiting doesn't mean this, waiting means top six and pushing for CL. What we have now is a shambles and once again the mark of a good manager is not what he does when he has a settled team and the dice are rolling in his favour but what he does when he's young team and the pressure's on.

There's an interview with Jol saying "I can't buy a Distin or a Mexes, so I get in a Kaboul".

He's a Premiership manager, that's a terrible thing for him to say. He's shouldn't be moaning, he's a team most of the rest of the Premiership would die for and he tries to find excuses for his cock-up.

I'm saying it because at some point the players need to play for Jol. They really do. They owe it to him.

They have been playing for him, they've been playing for him all season, he just can't make up his mind the way he wants them to play, he can't instil a strong mentality, he can't drill a defence. The players deserve a coach and a manager who can get the best out of them, Jol patently can't.

 

[Stoof]

*post*

The rest I'll agree to disagree with you, because we've been through about a dozen threads with the same arguments, neither of us budging about the lines between player and manager responsibility. So let's just leave it there.

He's a Premiership manager, that's a terrible thing for him to say. He's shouldn't be moaning, he's a team most of the rest of the Premiership would die for and he tries to find excuses for his cock-up.

With regards to his quote, it suggests he would quite like some experienced players, but it seems those up top suggest differently.

They have been playing for him, they've been playing for him all season, he just can't make up his mind the way he wants them to play, he can't instil a strong mentality, he can't drill a defence. The players deserve a coach and a manager who can get the best out of them, Jol patently can't.

They didn't bloody play for him on Monday, that's for sure. And that's what I'm talking about. When the going gets tough where were the players to stand up, say "by jove, he's right you know!" and be counted. They weren't there and they bottled it. But that's getting back to the whole player's hiding behind the manager thing, and I honestly don't want to get into that here, because it'll take the thread away from it's purpose.

The last sentence "Jol patently can't". That's out of line and wrong, my friend. Because he's already done it for 2 and 3/4 years. Getting the best out of players - making them achieve their potential - to the point of overachieving. You do him a huge disservice there.

 

[sloth]

The rest I'll agree to disagree with you, because we've been through about a dozen threads with the same arguments, neither of us budging about the lines between player and manager responsibility. So let's just leave it there.



With regards to his quote, it suggests he would quite like some experienced players, but it seems those up top suggest differently.




They didn't bloody play for him on Monday, that's for sure. And that's what I'm talking about. When the going gets tough where were the players to stand up, say "by jove, he's right you know!" and be counted. They weren't there and they bottled it. But that's getting back to the whole player's hiding behind the manager thing, and I honestly don't want to get into that here, because it'll take the thread away from it's purpose.

The last sentence "Jol patently can't". That's out of line and wrong, my friend. Because he's already done it for 2 and 3/4 years. Getting the best out of players - making them achieve their potential - to the point of overachieving. You do him a huge disservice there.

We conceded three crap goals on Monday. The first was an error from a player low on confidence, playing in a defence drilled by Jol.

The second was entirely down to Jol. In previous matches we've had a player standing on the corner of the six-yard box, precisely to head away that kind of delivery. They did it in the first half and almost scored and then repeated the trick after Jol had a chance to talk to them about it and this time scored. They did it because Jol wants either all man-to-man or all zonal. He hasn't a clue and every manager is able to out think him on set-pieces. It's embarrassing.

The third goal was down to JJ's lack of balls.

the team doesn't believe in what Jol's teaching them and I don't blame them. It doesn't work. You keep trying to find every excuse under the sun. When are you going to be honest with yourself and admit that sometimes the man who ate all the pies is the fat lump with gravy all over his face and crumbs down his front standing right in front of you?

 

[JKSpurs]

yup - bob on.

i'd even go further than that by saying that i don't believe there is a place for a DoF at the club at all.

a head scout - with good contacts around the footballing globe - yes. and that's exactly what comolli is, a scout. he's not a DoF.

when looking at the top four this season, the only one that looks dis-jointed is the one with a DoF - chelsea.

Man U, Liverpool, and Arsenal are all looking extemely good and not one of them employs this silly DoF structure. coincidence? i think not.

Spot on great post, I also think its comolli who's way out of his depth, everyone was so excited (me also) when he came in with the news that he was Arsenal's cheif scout, look at all the marvious players they have, he must of found them all and will now do the same for spurs. What is obvious he that he was a small cog in a huge scouting network Arsene has.

I'm not sure of the dates and when players came in etc, but it's obvious the best two season we have had have been with players who have been bought and identifed without his help.

put comolli back in his rightful place as a scout and let Jol get on with his job.

 

[phil]

Whatever your opinion of Jol (and I have always had reservations about him), he has to go now. He knows that he has lost the confidence of the board and will be replaced sooner or later. He is only soldiering on to ensure that he gets his compensation. Anyone in that situation would be demotivated. Whether you think he's our greatest manager since Bill Nick or a manager of limited ability it is essential for the good of the club that he is replaced now.Sure the board have shown incompetence in finding a replacement but it is not their fault that we are not properly prepared at the start of the season and cannot defend set pieces. If Ramosgate hadn't happened, I wonder how many would now be calling for Jol's head after one victory in 10 games.Love him or loathe him - Jol must go now.

 

[gibbs131]

I support him 100% and want him here as long as he wants to stay. We do need more coaching staff.

 

[klintheman]

No, he's the right man for the job and I truely believe that...not the most popular opinion I know.

 

[PLTuck]

Whatever your opinion of Jol (and I have always had reservations about him), he has to go now. He knows that he has lost the confidence of the board and will be replaced sooner or later. He is only soldiering on to ensure that he gets his compensation. Anyone in that situation would be demotivated. Whether you think he's our greatest manager since Bill Nick or a manager of limited ability it is essential for the good of the club that he is replaced now.Sure the board have shown incompetence in finding a replacement but it is not their fault that we are not properly prepared at the start of the season and cannot defend set pieces. If Ramosgate hadn't happened, I wonder how many would now be calling for Jol's head after one victory in 10 games.Love him or loathe him - Jol must go now.

I tend to agree with this.

I will be supporting him 100% all the time he is our manager. After all, he may yet bring it back from the brink. Stranger things have happened.

I think the problem we have as fans, regardless of our feelings for Jol, is that we all want what's best for our beloved club, whatever that may be.
If you like Jol as boss, as I have (though since Newc game have kind of accepted the inevitable. Nothing would delight me more than for DL to come out and say that Jol's job is safe no matter what, but in this reality, it aint gonna happen.) then it hurts to admit that a change is necessary for the good of the club.
My opinion remains that he has lost all authority within the dressing room, which is a shame, but as ever, we should remember that we will still be singing Oh when the Spurs.... long after DL, BMJ, DC and all the players have been put out to pasture.

We really could do with giving Getafe a good hiding tomorrow to put the Newc game behind us. 3 points in the league is getting ever more crucial, so lets start on Sunday. ray:

 

[Kendall]

Pretty much, yeah.

School-boy like personnel management. In fact I reckon I could do a better job. Seriously - the way that they've treated what is supposedly the most important non-playing asset is horrific.

Why do you think all the messageboards, pubs and newspaper inches are full of words like "undermined" and "untenable". Well, it's because the Board have completely and utterly undermined Jol, to make his position untenable.

The people who deserve the ultimate finger-pointing are the Board members.

I thought it was individual errors, stoof?

not the board, not jol, but just all the players, isn't that right stoof?

 

[Stoof]

I thought it was individual errors, stoof?

not the board, not jol, but just all the players, isn't that right stoof?

Like I've said in a kajillion other posts, I don't want to talk about this here because it's not the right place. And to be honest I can't be arsed to repeat all that I've said for people to try and pretend they're clever by bringing it up again.

I stand my ground on this, and my line maybe a bit further towards the players than the manager, but they both have a responsibility - don't get me wrong there - but at the end of the day the players need to go out there and get the results for the manager. In turn the manager has to get the results for the Board. It's an obvious upstream.

What seems to have happened in this thread, is that people talking about the state of the Board have now been grouped into a section that think that the cause of everything is the Board. I don't believe that.

I don't think they've helped the situation though.

 

[lennon4england]

He can't go on acting as "caretaker" as he will simply have no motivation to do well, so he wont do well. Thats why i think we are performing so badly at the moment - Jol knows its only a matter of time until they find someone else, he doesnt really care what happens now. A few interviews after he leaves stating this will keep his reputation to help find a new job.

Most caretakers have an affiliation with the club such as Pleat or are trying to impress like Roeder at Newcastle.

We need to give him until the end of the season to show what he can do - let him know that if he turns it around he will get a new contract or at least keep his job for another season. If we have a bad season then by all means find someone else but while he is here he needs the full support of the board, the players and the fans otherwise he will never succeed.

 

[Tottenham_OZpur]

voted the 3rd option, give Jol the rest of the year which has always been my stance. Only if either we were able to get a top class manager that was too good to turn down or if we get knocked out of the cups early and no chance of Europe would it be ok before then.

I don't blame the current performances on just the board. They could of handled the incident better ( like not getting caught etc ) and may be partly to blame, but the problems with the team were there before the Hotel incident as the Sunderland and Everton games showed. To say the board is fully to blame for our position is just plain stupid, we had problems from the very start of the season.

After last season's poor start I can see why the board were not happy with the Sunderland game and then the Everton game topped it off, lesson should have been learned from last season ( all you can ask for ) and clearly that wasn't the case.
Something has to be wrong with our preseasons if it takes us this long to get going, maybe not enough fitness work, need harder games etc instead of easy games that get's us in a false sense of security :shrug:

Though the board put Jol in a tough position, the blame for me is still between Jol, the coaching staff and the players. They all should have used what happened in Spain to motivate them to prove the board was wrong, I know I would have wanted to prove them wrong, what has happened since the incident has been the complete opposite though. It's up to the coaching staff and manager to sort out our problems ie defence and get the players playing with passion and commitment, yet it is not happening and that is where the buck stops with the manager. We have had a couple international breaks to sort things out, get in the right mindset, knuckle down and sort out our problems and yet we get a Newcastle performance, sorry can't blame that on just the board !!!

 

[SpurSince57]

Well Stoof , maybe they believed that Jol would put our problems right in the close season....3 games in all the old probs were there (or even worse)....so they acted .

Do you imagine other boards don't do the same ? The only thing that YES the board messed up was they weren't very good at the cloak and dagger stuff , dodging behind the curtains etc .

...and I can forgive them for that .

Three games? That would have been laughable enough, but the meeting was on Friday 17th, three days after the Everton game. Word from the execrable 'Wan Danny Thomas' (who seemed to know an awful lot about what was going on behind the scenes, at least insofar as the information he said we'd hear we heard from BEN and Dragon1) was that the decision to oust Jol had been taken before a ball was kicked in anger. So if he wasn't up to the job before any games had been played, or after one or two had been played, he wasn't up to it in May. The board fucked up monumentally. Levy may be the football equivalent of Gordon Brown when it comes to fiscal prudence, but in terms of personnel management he's been weak and vacillating.

So, not only has the board succeeded in undermining the coach (and anyone who believes this farce hasn't seriously affected the performance of both Jol and the team is, frankly, mad), their behaviour over the past few years has sent out a clear message to anyone who fancies his chances as Spurs coach/manager; how long do I have before the knives go in my back? Would Hughes, Ramos or anyone else really want to be associated with this bunch of cowboys, or will they just ask 'Do I really need this?' and decide they'd be better off staying where they're appreciated?

 

[michaelden]

I was firmly of the opinion tha Jol should be given time and thd board shouuld back him; but now I feel the internal turmoil is too much and there will never be the same twin desire to succeed as before. Therefore I suggest Jol goes (well the board aren't going soon) and we move on. Hopefully learning from these mistakes

 

[karsten_finkle]

i don't think anybody's laying the blame squarely at the boards feet (or, at least, i'm not)

of course the players and the manager should shoulder some of the blame - but that's regarding the performances and that's not really what this thread's about.

irrespective of whether or not jol is the right man to take us forward the board, in my opinion, have made his job untennable by getting caught tapping up other managers and dragging the whole affair through the press - effectively making him a dead man walking.

 

[johno]

regardless of the board's shambolic treatment of jol, jol must take a lot of the blame. 1 win in 10 league games with side we have is appaling and pathetic - quite frankly we deserve much better then that.

what's more conceding the SAME fucking goals time and time again must lay at the feet of jol. how many more goals from set pieces do we want to concede? only the scum have scored more goals in the league then us and we're 18th for christs sake - you don't need to have a national diploma to work out what our problem is, yet jol STILL hasn't sorted it out.

 

[Tottenham_OZpur]

Three games? That would have been laughable enough, but the meeting was on Friday 17th, three days after the Everton game.

although I agree about it being too early to act if it was just this season, the problem is it happened last season aswell. That is where I see why the board felt this is not good enough, because it wasn't.

Our start stuffed up any chance we had of at least putting up a bit of a challenge for a CL place last season and we should have learnt from that this season, yet for it to happen again showed lessons were not learned. That is not the boards fault but the manager/coaching staff. The team picked for Sunderland, let's say was poor and anyone could see that and the mindset of the players, we were far too defensive.

So, not only has the board succeeded in undermining the coach (and anyone who believes this farce hasn't seriously affected the performance of both Jol and the team is, frankly, mad)

while I am sure it did effect them as you say, after it set in, it should have been used to motivate all concerned to prove the board was wrong, it sadly has not happened. We have had a couple international breaks where the coaching staff/players could have got in the right mindset, knuckled down and got on with the job. Can't blame the Newcastle performance on anyone else but the coaching staff and the players.
Yes the first game or so after the incident can cut some slack, but not now, it has been long enough to put it behind them and get in the right mindset. Can't keep putting poor performances on what happened in Spain :wink:

next thing our defensive problems etc that have not been sorted out will be the board's fault too

the blame is equally spread between the players ( who lack commitment and passion ), the coaching staff ( who have not done a good job sorting out our problems, tactics and team selection, o and that Sunderland game etc ) and the board ( who got caught out ) :wink: