Value our squad

[Maske2g]

We knew from the minute Van der Vaart came in that our system would have to change to accommodate the him (Rafa), and we've duly switched to the 4-4-1-1 formation - one in which Defoe isn't best suited.

I like J' a lot, but the system we're now veering towards (and were planning to in away European games even pre-VdV) is never going to get the best out of Defoe, and more importantly the team. A front man in the new set-up has to have the ability to not only hold the ball, but to use it intelligently too. While Defoe has improved both aspects of his game since his return to the club, I still maintain there are more suited strikers out there that could be acquired for £16m.

Bentley's value is down to our original outlay, along with the fact that he is still very much suited to the current set-up (and arguably will be even more should we get in the kind of striker I described above).

The original posted asked for the values that we would be content to sell the players at. He didn't ask what we thought they were worth. Because of the massive outlay we made on Bentley, there's no getting away from the fact that I would be disappointed to take a decent loss on him. At a time when everyone was convinced we were going to get taken to the cleaners over Darren Bent, we managed to recoup a possible £16.5m, albeit in instalments and conditional payments. If we were to manage a similar deal (say, £9m, potentially rising to £14m), I would be content with that.

What has original outlay got to do with it? When we bought him he was good, and hungry. Now, he's pissed up and average. He's worth 7 million top whack. Darren Bent is a different kettle. he came here, scored goals without playing time, so kept his value and his value has been proven since with his bags of goals.

 

[sloth]

You surely don't understand the point of the thread. Would you really be happy for us to sell Van der Vaart for £15m?! And Ledley for nothing?!?!

You're right, I just read the title of the thread. That's what I think the squad's worth if they were on the market today, not what I'd be happy to sell them for.

Anyway, with my realistic assessment they seem to be worth about £270m which means we could've made a tidy 60m or so on our outlay.

 

[guiltyparty]

Rapscallion/Brett.Spur - it's 'they're' not 'their', he's right

Sloth - well done on the realism. Some massive over-valuations on here

 

[Maske2g]

Rapscallion/Brett.Spur - it's 'they're' not 'their', he's right

Sloth - well done on the realism. Some massive over-valuations on here

Oh no guys, best take that Internet English GCSE again....

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

What has original outlay got to do with it? When we bought him he was good, and hungry. Now, he's pissed up and average. He's worth 7 million top whack. Darren Bent is a different kettle. he came here, scored goals without playing time, so kept his value and his value has been proven since with his bags of goals.

Sorry, but that is so utterly incorrect I don't know where to start.

What has original outlay got to do with it? That is such an amateurish comment, I'm almost stuck for words.

Our buying policy over the last 6 or so years has had everything to do with investments. We have generally invested in players, especially young ones with that oh-so talked about sell-on-value, and we've done it well on the whole. Despite such a large turnover of playing staff in the noted period, we've improved at the strategy over time, refining our original scatter-gun approach to hand-picking a few players a season.

When you make an investment in something, you generally hold on to it barring 2 reasons: A) your investment is falling in value, so you should cut your loses, or B) you need capital to invest in another player, so you sell player-X to raise funds for player-Y. David Bentley, while not being the (potentially) £17m player we thought we were signing, is not decreasing in value. He probably has a market value of around £8m today, though that figure is not falling. If anything, his performances in the second half of last season saw his true-value increase to around £12m again (and some would argue that was probably his true value when we signed him too). David Bentley covers neither issue A, nor issue B. He is a more-than-competent player, and one who has the ability to improve us. You mention he was hungry when we signing him, and suggested he isn't now, but I don't recall many that showed more hunger than he did in the latter half of last season.

On a final note, Darren Bent was so similar to Bentley! How you can say otherwise is beyond me. Both came for almost identical prices, and following slow starts, both struggled to make an impact. Both then got a bit of a chance, and shone to an extent, creating a bit of enthusiasm for the respective players on these boards. Finally, they both faded a bit again (Bent under Harry post-Pompy and Bentley due to injury), before Bent was sold at roughly the same stage as where Bentley is now.

 

[Maske2g]

Sorry, but that is so utterly incorrect I don't know where to start.

What has original outlay got to do with it? That is such an amateurish comment, I'm almost stuck for words.

Our buying policy over the last 6 or so years has had everything to do with investments. We have generally invested in players, especially young ones with that oh-so talked about sell-on-value, and we've done it well on the whole. Despite such a large turnover of playing staff in the noted period, we've improved at the strategy over time, refining our original scatter-gun approach to hand-picking a few players a season.

When you make an investment in something, you generally hold on to it barring 2 reasons: A) your investment is falling in value, so you should cut your loses, or B) you need capital to invest in another player, so you sell player-X to raise funds for player-Y. David Bentley, which not being the (potentially) £17m player we thought we were signing, is not decreasing in value. He probably has a market value of around £8m today, though that figure is not falling. If anything, his performances in the second half of last season saw his true-value increase to around £12m again (and some would argue that was probably his true value when we signed him too). David Bentley covers neither issue A, nor issue B. He is a more-than-competent player, and one who has the ability to improve us. You mention he was hungry when we signing him, and suggested he isn't now, but I don't recall many that showed more hunger than he did in the latter half of last season.

Darren Bent was so similar to Bentley! How you can say otherwise is beyond me. Both came for almost identical prices, and following slow starts, both struggled to make an impact. Both then got a bit of a chance, and shone to an extent, creating a bit of enthusiasm for the respective players on these boards. Finally, they both faded a bit again (Bent under Harry post-Pompy and Bentley due to injury), before Bent was sold at roughly the same stage as where Bentley is now.

Dont talk to me about investments....I'm a business analyst for a top tier investment bank. This was the worst investment the club had made in the Levy era. And you have answered youself by saying we paid too much. At no point has his "form" seen his value increase. He was an average part, of a team that was in form last season, and he still couldn't get a regular start with Lennon out for 4 months.

You have so much shit in your eyes if you think Bentley has done as well for us as Bent. Bent was hated by the fans, was 4th choice striker, and still managed 18 league goals in 32 league starts for us. Bentley has done fuck all.

Let me rephrase, what has the price we paid, got to do with what another club would pay for him now? Absolutely nothing. Because no club in their right would pay more than 7 million for him. .

 

[EastLondonYid]

We knew from the minute Van der Vaart came in that our system would have to change to accommodate the him (Rafa), and we've duly switched to the 4-4-1-1 formation - one in which Defoe isn't best suited.

I like J' a lot, but the system we're now veering towards (and were planning to in away European games even pre-VdV) is never going to get the best out of Defoe, and more importantly the team. A front man in the new set-up has to have the ability to not only hold the ball, but to use it intelligently too. While Defoe has improved both aspects of his game since his return to the club, I still maintain there are more suited strikers out there that could be acquired for £16m.

Bentley's value is down to our original outlay, along with the fact that he is still very much suited to the current set-up (and arguably will be even more should we get in the kind of striker I described above).

The original posted asked for the values that we would be content to sell the players at. He didn't ask what we thought they were worth. Because of the massive outlay we made on Bentley, there's no getting away from the fact that I would be disappointed to take a decent loss on him. At a time when everyone was convinced we were going to get taken to the cleaners over Darren Bent, we managed to recoup a possible £16.5m, albeit in instalments and conditional payments. If we were to manage a similar deal (say, £9m, potentially rising to £14m), I would be content with that.

Are we talking about the same Defoe?
The one i am talking about is the one who just scored a hatrick for England playing that exact role you say he ain't suited too.

I would never in a million years value Defoe in the same category as Bentley.

1: Defoe...probably Capello's(englands)..first choice foward at the time of his injury.
2:Bentley..definately Harry's(tottenhams)..3/4 choice RM...and nowhere near being in Englands squad.

how on earth can you compare their market value near enough the same?

here is MY valuation of those 2 players...and IMO, A realistic valuation at what we would get today, not what we paid etc ...

Bentley....6-8 million...absolute max..and i would drive him myself...

Defoe.....16-18 million. absolute min.....and i would be gutted.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

Dont talk to me about investments....I'm a business analyst for a top tier investment bank.

Clearly, you understand your job better than football Congratulations.

This was the worst investment the club had made in the Levy era.

Yeah, I reckon you're probably right.

At no point has his "form" seen his value increase. He was an average part, of a team that was in form last season, and he still couldn't get a regular start with Lennon out for 4 months.

That's garbage.

His value dropped massively mid-way through Harry's first term in charge. Not that we'd have sold him for it, but most papers were quoting him as a £6m target for other Premier League sides, just months after we'd pushed through a deal to sign him at a minimum outlay of £15m. If you don't see that his value would have increased between the FA Cup replay with Fulham and the end of the season, it isn't me who has shit in their eyes.

You have so much shit in your eyes if you think Bentley has done as well for us as Bent. Bent was hated by the fans, was 4th choice striker, and still managed 18 league goals in 32 league starts for us. Bentley has done fuck all.

Bent scored 18 league goals in 2005/06, and 14 in 2006/07. In 2007/08, in his first season with Spurs, he scored 6. That's pretty disappointing for a £16.5m player, right?

In his second season, he scored 17 goals in 45 games. I'm not going to argue that that was a poor return - it wasn't. But he was a lone striker for a decent chunk of that season, and yeah I would have expected him to get around that mark. The flip-side is that Bent's all-round game wasn't good enough; as a lone striker, he wasn't intelligent enough in his use of the ball, and in a partnership, he never gelled with any of our striking options. To top it off, he showed a poor attitude in public (to the Sandra comment, and later via Twitter), and rumour had it in private too (talk of him being a bad egg in the dressing room, and largely disliked within the club by our playing staff).

Bent wasn't all bad, but neither is Bentley. Both are good players, which is why both have demanded high transfer fees in their time. To say one was markedly better than the other is wrong in my opinion.

Let me rephrase, what has the price we paid, got to do with what another club would pay for him now? Absolutely nothing. Because no club in their right would pay more than 7 million for him. .

Do you really not understand the thread? Or are you just not reading what anyone else is putting? :?

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

Are we talking about the same Defoe?
The one i am talking about is the one who just scored a hatrick for England playing that exact role you say he ain't suited too.

Unless we've awaken and signed Daniel, I think so :-D

Do you believe that an Edin Dzeko or a Diego Forlan would be less suited to the lone-striker role than Defoe? Because to me, Defoe will always be suited to your standard 4-4-2, along with its variants.

I never said that Jermain couldn't play there - I said that others are better suited to that specific role in the team.

I would never in a million years value Defoe in the same category as Bentley.

Fine. But Daniel Levy, who is a far fucking better businessman than you or I sanctioned both the £17m signing of David Bentley as well as the £15m re-signing of Jermain. Seems to me he valued them pretty closely.

1: Defoe...probably Capello's(englands)..first choice foward at the time of his injury.
2:Bentley..definately Harry's(tottenhams)..3/4 choice RM...and nowhere near being in Englands squad.

Emile Heskey was probably England's first choice forward in the World Cup, along with Rooney. He was certainly considered ahead of Jermain in the pecking order. What does that say about Capello's view on Jermain? Or his player judgement in general?

David Bentley is of course going to be further from the England team than Defoe. Although the latter has been more important to Spurs in recent seasons, England have Aaron Lennon, Theo Walcott, Adam Johnson and James Milner who have all played right-midfield for England in recent months. England are so light up-front, they have just called up Kevin Davies after Emile Heskey played down the idea of coming out of International retirement. Do you see what I'm getting at?

how on earth can you compare their market value near enough the same?

I didn't. Read the thread.

here is MY valuation of those 2 players...and IMO, A realistic valuation at what we would get today, not what we paid etc ...

Bentley....6-8 million...absolute max..and i would drive him myself...

Defoe.....16-18 million. absolute min.....and i would be gutted.

So errm... we agree on their market values :lol:

For fuck sake people. Read the poxy thread before wasting my time :-|

 

[Chimbo!]

My Pointless Tuppence Worth

1 GK Heurelho Gomes £15m
2 DF Alan Hutton £5m
3 MF Gareth Bale £43m very precise
4 DF Younes Kaboul £12m £8m
5 MF David Bentley £5m £8m
6 MF Tom Huddlestone £22m £14m
7 MF Aaron Lennon £18m
8 MF Jermaine Jenas £12m £10m
9 FW Roman Pavlyuchenko £8m
10 FW Robbie Keane £4m
11 MF Rafael van der Vaart £25m
12 MF Wilson Palacios £10m
13 DF William Gallas £5m
14 MF Luka Modrić £22m
15 FW Peter Crouch £15m £10m
16 DF Kyle Naughton £4m
17 FW Giovani dos Santos £4m
18 FW Jermain Defoe £14m
19 DF Sébastien Bassong £12m £8m
20 DF Michael Dawson £18m
21 MF Niko Kranjčar £8m
22 DF Vedran Ćorluka £7m
23 GK Carlo Cudicini £3m (cheap cos he's old)
24 MF Jamie O'Hara £6m
26 DF Ledley King £25m £0 no one is going to buy him
30 MF Sandro £22m £7m
32 DF Benoît Assou-Ekotto £15m £7m

 

[Maske2g]

His value dropped massively mid-way through Harry's first term in charge. Not that we'd have sold him for it, but most papers were quoting him as a £6m target for other Premier League sides, just months after we'd pushed through a deal to sign him at a minimum outlay of £15m. If you don't see that his value would have increased between the FA Cup replay with Fulham and the end of the season, it isn't me who has shit in their eyes.

I couldn't disagree more. Your saying in over 2 years, he managed a spell of form lasting 8 games. Brilliant...

Lets look at those games.

Pompey at home, bland 2-0 win.

Sunderland away, subbed at half time cos we were battered.

Portsmouth cup semi final. Started.....say no more about that.

Arsenal home, he was on the bench. Came on for Rose on 46, and we were holding out for a win after 50 minutes.

Chelsea at home. Good team win. Bale was the difference, pen won, solo goal.

Man U away - we were awful

Bolton at home, scraped a win

Man City away, such was Bentley's "great form" Lennon was rushed back into the starting line up whilst clearly not fit.

Burnley away, shit.

So, where's this great, value ramping form?

Bent scored 18 league goals in 2005/06, and 14 in 2006/07. In 2007/08, in his first season with Spurs, he scored 6. That's pretty disappointing for a £16.5m player, right?

In his second second, he scored 17 goals in 45 games. I'm not going to argue that that was a poor return - it wasn't. But he was a lone striker for a decent chunk of that season, and yeah I would have expected him to get around that mark. The flip-side is that Bent's all-round game wasn't good enough; as a lone striker, he wasn't intelligent enough in his use of the ball, and in a partnership, he never gelled with any of our striking options. To top it off, he showed a poor attitude in public (to the Sandra comment, and later via Twitter), and rumour had it in private too (talk of him being a bad egg, and largely disliked within the club by our playing staff).

Bent wasn't all bad, but neither is Bentley. Both are good players, which is why both have demanded high transfer fees in their time. To say one was markedly better than the other is wrong in my opinion.



Do you really not understand the thread? Or are you just not reading what anyone else is putting? :?

Your clearly getting your stats off wiki or some other nonsence. This is a classic example of twisting the facts. Yes only 6 goals in the first season, how many starts??? 11 Better than one in two starts. The benchmark of good strikers.

Yes, his hold up play was poor, but no less than the dross we see at the moment, its just that at the time we were being spoilt by Berbatov.

Right now for Sunderland, a confident Bent is doing a very good all round job.

 

[EastLondonYid]

Unless we've awaken and signed Daniel, I think so :-D

Do you believe that an Edin Dzeko or a Diego Forlan would be less suited to the lone-striker role than Defoe? Because to me, Defoe will always be suited to your standard 4-4-2, along with its variants.

I never said that Jermain couldn't play there - I said that others are better suited to that specific role in the team.



Fine. But Daniel Levy, who is a far fucking better businessman than you or I sanctioned both the £17m signing of David Bentley as well as the £15m re-signing of Jermain. Seems to me he valued them pretty closely.



Emile Heskey was probably England's first choice forward in the World Cup, along with Rooney. He was certainly considered ahead of Jermain in the pecking order. What does that say about Capello's view on Jermain? Or his player judgement in general?

David Bentley is of course going to be further from the England team than Defoe. Although the latter has been more important to Spurs in recent seasons, England have Aaron Lennon, Theo Walcott, Adam Johnson and James Milner who have all played right-midfield for England in recent months. England are so light up-front, they have just called up Kevin Davies after Emile Heskey played down the idea of coming out of International retirement. Do you see what I'm getting at?



I didn't. Read the thread.



why don't you calm down and actually read what i said and what you said.

you valued bentley at 14 million...so how the fuck do we agree on that?

i said defoe was englands first choice at the time of his injury, which is nearer to todays market value..not the world cup....so your heskey theory is old hat fella.


So errm... we agree on their market values :lol: how did you come to that? you valued bentley at 14...i said 6-8????

For fuck sake people. Read the poxy thread before wasting my time :-|

stop putting spin on a weak argument, levy tries to fuck people over all the time...well done levy..

but that doesnt mean he would get 14 m for bentley ..which is what i'm going on about...YOU TRYING READING MATE.....

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

I couldn't disagree more. Your saying in over 2 years, he managed a spell of form lasting 8 games. Brilliant...

Lets look at those games.

Pompey at home, bland 2-0 win.

Sunderland away, subbed at half time cos we were battered.

Portsmouth cup semi final. Started.....say no more about that.

Arsenal home, he was on the bench. Came on for Rose on 46, and we were holding out for a win after 50 minutes.

Chelsea at home. Good team win. Bale was the difference, pen won, solo goal.

Man U away - we were awful

Bolton at home, scraped a win

Man City away, such was Bentley's "great form" Lennon was rushed back into the starting line up whilst clearly not fit.

Burnley away, shit.

So, where's this great, value ramping form?

Do you honestly not recall Bentley's markedly improved input? :lol:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...driving-force-behind-jermain-defoes-treble.do

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...-on-England-World-Cup-call-article358629.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...wings-as-Fabio-Capellos-options-diminish.html

Such was his form that there was talk of a place in the England World Cup squad. If you don't think that that type of media hype (even if that's all it is) isn't enough to boost your value, then I have nothing more to say to you on the matter.

Your clearly getting your stats off wiki or some other nonsence. This is a classic example of twisting the facts. Yes only 6 goals in the first season, how many starts??? 11 Better than one in two starts. The benchmark of good strikers.

lol @ Wiki. Who do you take me for?

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=8111&cc=5739

I'm shocked the man who insists on listing only starts, but also lists goals when coming on too is talking to me about twisting stats :lol: 6 goals in 11 starts you say? I think you may have forgotten the 17 substitute appearances

 

[EastLondonYid]

Bentley is shit and worth 6m....at the very best

anyone who thinks we could get more...TODAY..not last year, or last whatever..NOW..
IS talking absolute fucking tosh.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

but that doesnt mean he would get 14 m for bentley ..which is what i'm going on about...YOU TRYING READING MATE.....

Trying? Right now, you have no idea. Don't talk to me about trying...

Personally, there are few players I'd not feel unhappy about seeing walk away from the Lane, but for the purposes of this thread, what I mean by 'valuation' is this:

If for some strange non-footballing reason it turned out that player x really had to leave Spurs, reluctantly, and a big club came in for them, what figure would you feel 'fair'? What sum would it take to make you feel we hadn't been 'cheated', but neither had we been overpaid for them? To look at it another way - how much would we have to shell out to adequately replace them? Youth and potential are therefore considerations also.

It's subjective, and just a fairly pointless way of passing the time for any that fancy posting, so let's leave the handbags at the door eh folks? :wink:

Here's mine. I'm biased as hell, and don't claim that they're realistic :grin:. They're sums that would just about placate me should they leave.

I truly despise CAPS, but allow me to break the habit of a lifetime, just once.

IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH MARKET VALUE.

IT IS SIMPLY THE AMOUNT WE WOULD, INDIVIDUALLY, FEEL COMPENSATED FOR IF THEY WERE TO LEAVE!

Sorry about that.

I've said numerous times that we would not get £14m for him. I've even given his true-market value as £8m. Yet you and Maske2g insist on repeatedly brushing over my posts and arguing the same, incorrect statement over and over and over... and frankly, it's driving me semi-nuts

 

[Kendall]

1 GK Heurelho Gomes £15m
2 DF Alan Hutton £3m
3 MF Gareth Bale £30m
4 DF Younes Kaboul £8m
5 MF David Bentley £7m
6 MF Tom Huddlestone £20m
7 MF Aaron Lennon £20m
8 MF Jermaine Jenas £15m
9 FW Roman Pavlyuchenko £10m
10 FW Robbie Keane £7m
11 MF Rafael van der Vaart £25m
12 MF Wilson Palacios £14m
13 DF William Gallas £3m
14 MF Luka Modrić £25m
15 FW Peter Crouch £10m
16 DF Kyle Naughton £5m
17 FW Giovani dos Santos £7m
18 FW Jermain Defoe £15m
19 DF Sébastien Bassong £8m
20 DF Michael Dawson £10m
21 MF Niko Kranjčar £10m
22 DF Vedran Ćorluka £8m
23 GK Carlo Cudicini £2m
24 MF Jamie O'Hara £5m
26 DF Ledley King £8m
30 MF Sandro £10m
32 DF Benoît Assou-Ekotto £12m

 

[EastLondonYid]

1 GK Heurelho Gomes £23m
2 DF Alan Hutton £8m
3 MF Gareth Bale £32m
4 DF Younes Kaboul £14m
5 MF David Bentley £14m
6 MF Tom Huddlestone £20m
7 MF Aaron Lennon £20m
8 MF Jermaine Jenas £11m
9 FW Roman Pavlyuchenko £12m
10 FW Robbie Keane £8m
11 MF Rafael van der Vaart £29m
12 MF Wilson Palacios £14m
13 DF William Gallas £3m
14 MF Luka Modrić £32m
15 FW Peter Crouch £14m
16 DF Kyle Naughton £2m
17 FW Giovani dos Santos £6m
18 FW Jermain Defoe £16m
19 DF Sébastien Bassong £10m
20 DF Michael Dawson £13m
21 MF Niko Kranjčar £8m
22 DF Vedran Ćorluka £8m
23 GK Carlo Cudicini £1m
24 MF Jamie O'Hara £5m
26 DF Ledley King £0*
30 MF Sandro £20m
32 DF Benoît Assou-Ekotto £14m

* Would not be 'sold'. Will probably leave to retire.

Added them up in my head, so may be wrong, but got a total of £377m

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG...THIS IS YOUR POST....LOOK HOW MUCH YOU VALUE BENTLEY:bang::bang::bang:

YOU MAY MOVE THE GOALPOST LATER...BUT THIS IS WHAT I ANSWERED .


I LOVE caPS by the way...:wink:

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG...THIS IS YOUR POST....LOOK HOW MUCH YOU VALUE BENTLEY:bang::bang::bang:

YOU MAY MOVE THE GOALPOST LATER...BUT THIS IS WHAT I ANSWERED .

I give up. I actually give up :lol:

Just... wow :lol:

I LOVE caPS by the way...:wink:

 

[Maske2g]

Do you honestly not recall Bentley's markedly improved input? :lol:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...driving-force-behind-jermain-defoes-treble.do

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/new...-on-England-World-Cup-call-article358629.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...wings-as-Fabio-Capellos-options-diminish.html

Such was his form that there was talk of a place in the England World Cup squad. If you don't think that that type of media hype (even if that's all it is) isn't enough to boost your value, then I have nothing more to say to you on the matter.



lol @ Wiki. Who do you take me for?

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=8111&cc=5739

I'm shocked the man who insists on listing only starts, but also lists goals when coming on too is talking to me about twisting stats :lol: 6 goals in 11 starts you say? I think you may have forgotten the 17 substitute appearances

Only one of those articles suggest an actual match winning performance, and that was against a team two divisions beneath us, and it was before the time period you mentioned.

Lets say on average he played 15 minutes in those sub appearances. Though we all know that in some of them he came on in injury time, that equates to 3 whole games. Except he only had 15 minutes (on average) to find his rhythm. He still managed 6 goals in 14 whole games. Not bad for 4th choice, and hated by the fans.

2ns season for us, EVEN BETTER!!! 21 starts. 12 as sub. 12*15 mins= 2 whole games. So 12 goals in 23 full games. Again, Bent has absolutely had you on toast.

 

[EastLondonYid]

I give up. I actually give up :lol:

Just... wow :lol:

:clap::clap:

AT LaSt :violin: