Which of these scenarios would you take?

[WhiteStripe]

100 percent agree with brett in this little exchange, btw.

An acronym to save space yet a full word instead of a % question mark

 

[midoNdefoe]

And what happens if we finish 5th next year? We have zilch to show for it, and you've just turned down the biggest game in club football. Finishing 3rd gives us CL football again, it doesn't guarentee progress at all though.

Every year we qualify, we stand more chance of qualifying for it the next year, through the experience gained, potential aquisition of 'CL quality' players and increased revenues.

Would you rather be Living off the memory of a 'nearly game' (losing the final) and languishing as a result...Or actually be there fighting for it year in year out and growing bigger and stronger with the potential for subsequent finals.

 

[Such Small Portions]

Slightly pedantic and not hugely relevant, but, okay, fair cop, many apologies.

100% agree with Brett in this little exchange, btw.

Or

One hundred per cent agree with Brett in this little exchange, by the way.

Don't take it personally. I see your point of view completely, I just don't feel it. I thought it would be okay to express that opinion.

BTW, if you're really gonna go nuts on grammar on this forum, you're going to be a very busy boy.

Or, if you like, your going to be a very busy boy.

 

[MattyP]

Option two if we lose is worthless in terms of next season.

It would be a great achievement for this season yes, it would result in many glory nights along the way yes and would be a wonderful ride for the fans along the way.

When I say worthless I am talking in terms of progression for next season.

I think you are taking my use of the word worthless too literally, I am well aware of worth of this seasons glory. I was talking in terms of being given the choice of the two, an appearance in the CL final at the expense of maintaining our CL status would be worthless from the stand point of where it leaves us next season (without CL group stage money and CL football to offer potential signings)

Leeds reached the CL semi final once, but they were a one season wonder and flash in the pan. I'd rather we reinforce our position as a CL club and become a regular in the tournament than lose in the final and spend next season in the Europa.

Fair enough I suppose - I'd rather have the opportunity (emphasis on the word opportunity, not expectation) to win this years and see what happens. If we lose, use the pain of losing in the final as motivation to the current players to qualify for it again.

 

[WhiteStripe]

Slightly pedantic and not hugely relevant, but, okay, fair cop, many apologies.

100% agree with Brett in this little exchange, btw.

Or

One hundred per cent agree with Brett in this little exchange, by the way.

Don't take it personally. I see your point of view completely, I just don't feel it. I thought it would be okay to express that opinion.

BTW, if you're really gonna go nuts on grammar on this forum, you're going to be a very busy boy.

Or, if you like, your going to be a very busy boy.

:lol: rep for you're payshunts and onist answer.

 

[Such Small Portions]

:lol: rep for you're payshunts and onist answer.

Ha, fair play.

And fingers crossed for a place in the final and fourth. Or even third.

COYS!

 

[midoNdefoe]

I think the best way of explaining my view is to compare it to the Red Cross adverts:

If you give a man a fish, he will feed himself today.

If you give a man a boat and a net, he can feed himself for weeks and years to come.

Some people here are basically saying "Gimme that fish, fool! I aint no fisherman!"

 

[brett.spurs]

I'll take what I can get, not what I might possibly get 10 years down the line.

 

[WhiteStripe]

I think the best way of explaining my view is to compare it to the Red Cross adverts:

If you give a man a fish, he will feed himself today.

If you give a man a boat and a net, he can feed himself for weeks and years to come.

Some people here are basically saying "Gimme that fish, fool! I aint no fisherman!"

Brilliant analogy.
People are also forgetting that if were good enough to get to the final this year, why would it be 10 years before we got to the final if we chose option A?

 

[MattyP]

I think the best way of explaining my view is to compare it to the Red Cross adverts:

If you give a man a fish, he will feed himself today.

If you give a man a boat and a net, he can feed himself for weeks and years to come.

Some people here are basically saying "Gimme that fish, fool! I aint no fisherman!"

What if he dies of AIDS in July :shrug: At least if he'd have had a fish he would have had that pleasure before being dead.

Brilliant analogy.
People are also forgetting that if were good enough to get to the final this year, why would it be 10 years before we got to the final if we chose option A?

Because we won't get to the final under option A -we get knocked out in two weeks time :shrug: Therefore we weren't good enough to get past the last 16 this year, why should future years be any different.

 

[StartingPrice]

I can read thanks, I do understand the choices that were given. I've not been posting equating us to win it, of course that's a no brainer.

I'm posting that I believe the chance of appearing in the final, win or lose, is a chance worth having.

I'd get my day out at Wembley either way. I would tell the grandchildren I was there whether we won or not. I would cry either way, tears of joy or tears of sadness. But I will always be able to say I was there.

As for terminal decline, why so meodramatic. We're financially well run, we don't set our budgets on the assumption of qualifying for the champions league. If your point holds true, then the first season we don't qualify for the champions league we'd be in terminal decline. May as well give up now then.

Yeah, but to be fair, I said straight away it was an immensely difficult choice to make, you said it was a no brainer.

I'm being melodramatic because it is a hypothetical question and in order to fulfill the requirements of intellectual rigour it is 100% (PER CENT:wink necessary to identify as many angles as possible and then take them to the Nth degree.

Doing this I can see that Option 2 guarantees absolutely nothing and could be a disaster, whereas Option A IS proigress and almost certianly guarantees continuing progress.

As I said, above, I am glad it is only a hpothetical question, adn even if it wasn't I wouldn't be the one copping responsibility if it all went the shape of the pear. In the real World I want us to qualify 3rd, or even 2nd (hell, I want a total United collapse and the EPL title), AND CL final (and victory in that final).

1) As for delaying gratification, haven't we been doing that for a very long time now?

2) Current success and glory could hardly be called instant gratification!

1) But by delaying we would be continuing to progress and almost certainly contuing to progress, whereas by not delaying we may not get very much gratification at all.

2) But if we don't get any glory there is no gratification, but the flip-side could be that it sends us into a Leeds-like decline. If we won the CL it would be incredible, but if the latter happens what good is it going to be saying "yeah, we ended up in Div. 1, and didn't actually win anything, but, man, we got to the CL final one year - even if losing that final cut our steady improvement of mid-stride".

Maybe we should be asking Leeds fans:shrug:

 

[AngerManagement]

Fair enough I suppose - I'd rather have the opportunity (emphasis on the word opportunity, not expectation) to win this years and see what happens. If we lose, use the pain of losing in the final as motivation to the current players to qualify for it again.

Yea, I know very much what you are saying.

Part of me (a very large part) was ready to jump all over the CL final appearance.

If you notice, I basically twisted my mindset and answer based on us losing that final....this is because I simply couldn't answer otherwise.

The chance to actually win the whole tournament from a one off game in reality would be too tempting to turn down and I am sure if I was actually offered the two options my heart would over rule my head.

It's a difficult question to answer really, there is no clear right or wrong answer because one option is playing it smart but some might say sometimes you have to take a risk or two to ever achieve your goals and the safety first option is the choice of the loser (or at least someone happily to settle for second best)

The thing is one thing this season has shown me is having tasted CL football I don't want to return to the Uefa equivalent next season, I am obsessed with us continuing our and cementing our status as a CL club.

I feel over all 3rd place in the league gives us a better chance of sustained success and spending the coming seasons in the CL than losing a CL final and falling into the Europa would.

So if you assume we would lose the final then option one is the smart choice.....


BUT...there's always the question "what if we won it?"

its like having a deal or no deal final box decision, you might have £250k sitting infront of you or you might have 50p and the bankers has just offered you £11k what do you do? (ok that's a stupid analogy, but I'm sure you get my jist)

 

[CosmicHotspur]

So, we finish third and qualify again.

Just as there's no guarantee that if we were in the final we'd actually win it, there's no knowing how far we would get in that second season and no certainty that we would even reach the final.

At least we would be in the final with Option B and we might even win it. Option A doesn't afford us that opportunity.

 

[AngerManagement]

So, we finish third and qualify again.

Just as there's no guarantee that if we were in the final we'd actually win it, there's no knowing how far we would get in that second season and no certainty that we would even reach the final.

At least we would be in the final with Option B and we might even win it. Option A doesn't afford us that opportunity.

Coming third would guarantee group stage CL football and money

It would guarantee another transfer window in which we can offer potential signings CL football (ok I know this hasn't had the impact we all expected/wanted so far, but you have to think we have a better chance of getting the top striker we desire with a second straight CL season under our belt than if we only have the Europa ahead of us)

A second CL season may also result in LEvy sanctioning a stretch of our wage budget structure which may help us compete to sign top stars (although I wouldn't hold your breath just yet)

 

[EmperorKabir]

surprised at the poll results. first london club to win it, ahead of the scum or the $cum. qualify next year anyway, and attract players as they are more concerned about playing CL footy, not so much how you got it. maybe be the first/one of very few club to win it on their debut season adding to our impressive records of being the first to do stuff.

i mean wtf is 3rd? it's not like we win the league or anything.

definitely option 2.

 

[EastLondonYid]

Can't some realise that if option b meant winning the CL there would be no thread,it would be a no-brainer..

Its abit like deal or no deal, option A is like taking 100,000 when you have 1p or 250,000 left.
option B is like opening you box.

Stupid comparison maybe, but same sort of risk to me.

 

[WhiteStripe]

Because we won't get to the final under option A -we get knocked out in two weeks time :shrug: Therefore we weren't good enough to get past the last 16 this year, why should future years be any different.

My point was that option A doesn't necessarily mean no finals ever, or even in the foreseeable future, but it does GUARANTEE champions league football for another year. The Champions League football that is recognised as the bedrock of any real prolonged success in the top flight.

No team who has had 1 season in the CL then failed the next year has been able to push on to the consistency levels required to be successful. If the choice was a cup final win at Wembley, there would be no thread. It's not though, the choice is success this year (last 16 and a top 3 finish is huge success in a first ever year) and opportunity for success next year.

A final would be great, but given the two options, I have to choose the one that gives us the greatest opportunity to grow as a club, and that is the one that guarantees another year amongst Europes elite.

I also don't think people quite understand how BIG a jump from 4th to 3rd would be both psychologically, but also in terms of recognition that we are progressing. We would have been 3rd best in arguably the best league in Europe a year on year improvement.

 

[WhiteStripe]

surprised at the poll results. first london club to win it, ahead of the scum or the $cum. qualify next year anyway, and attract players as they are more concerned about playing CL footy, not so much how you got it. maybe be the first/one of very few club to win it on their debut season adding to our impressive records of being the first to do stuff.

i mean wtf is 3rd? it's not like we win the league or anything.

definitely option 2.

Um? So the question says "Win the CL or finish 3rd and go out now?" does it?

No.

 

[CosmicHotspur]

A shot at glory every time for me.

 

[Mr Pink]

What if he dies of AIDS in July :shrug: At least if he'd have had a fish he would have had that pleasure before being dead.



Because we won't get to the final under option A -we get knocked out in two weeks time :shrug: Therefore we weren't good enough to get past the last 16 this year, why should future years be any different.

Every year will be different for most Clubs no matter the circumstances, its the nature of the football with many variables involved - including luck of course.

But to take a stab at it;

- we'll have the experience of this year in the competition

- qualifying again suggests we are good enough to qualify regularly, thus helping our draw/pull as a Club to potential targets

- of course securing quality additions (like a top CF) should only improve us as a side and gives us a better chance of becoming a stronger team, which naturally gives us better odds of going far again in the Champions League

- with the League being very competitive, it would also give us a better chance of finishing in the top 4 next season which would allow us to continue to grow financially and again attract better players to the Club

- fair to say its a safer bet of ensuring this Club continues on its present trajectory. For me its about securing that elevated position first - becoming a 'top status' Club in the eyes of top players ( I appreciate a bigger stadium to offer larger wages is also central to this) Success inevitably follows in some description and staying at the top with the proper foundations in place will see plenty of realistic opportunites for trophies for years to come, hopefully :wink:....as opposed to a coin toss even though it would be absolutely amazing if we pulled it off.

I do think we could lose a big player or two if we miss out on top 4 and thats compounded by what we can/cant' bring in too if we fail to finish fourth.

Progress, at its current rate, most definitely hindered if that happens and it could be very difficult to get back on that exact path when you consider the strength of the League now eg re-ermengence of Liverpool, City getting stronger etc...