- Nov 18, 2007
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Slighty (entirely) off topic but I just noticed you liked Enter Shikari. They're great. Good man.
Aye. Shame they never really lived up to expectations after their first album. :-(
Slighty (entirely) off topic but I just noticed you liked Enter Shikari. They're great. Good man.
Yanno
I actually started to pen this reply to your oiginal Zokora comparison that you posted the link to above. Your assessment of Zokora's passing is - like alot of people's - wrong. I posted a thread a couple of months ago which compared the passing stats for about 20 of the prems best/good cm's. Zokora had the joint best pass completion rate (which was high eighties if I remember) and the 3rd best attempt rate (proving that his good average wasn't just down to few passes made).
CB or bust - for me.
Some shit-rag said:To be deprived of the chance to perform in such a big club game irritated Zokora, but not half as much as the taunts of Ivory Coast team-mate, and Arsenal centre back, Kolo Toure while they watched the games together on TV - at least in the early stages of the tie.
Spurs' 5-1 triumph in the second leg handed the club their first win over Arsenal for nine years and booked a place in the Carling Cup Final against Chelsea on 24 February.
It means the timing of the 26-year-old's return to Juande Ramos's squad couldn't be better - although his first priority is to help Tottenham get a positive result at Slavia Prague in the first leg of their Uefa Cup last-32 tie tonight.
Nevertheless, having bragging rights over Toure and the prospect of playing at Wembley have ensured he will take to the field in the best of spirits.
Zokora said: "I missed my team-mates while I was in Africa, but all of them did well. I kept in touch with all the results. I was able to watch every game on TV and we had many good performances.
"I watched the Tottenham-Arsenal games with Kolo and when Spurs won I was very happy, but Kolo wanted to fight me because he was upset! <-- :lol:
"I told him this is the first time we had beaten them for nearly 10 years and it was a great day for the club and the fans. I said I was sorry but I was very happy to get to the final.
"After the result there was also a lot of talk between me and Didier Drogba and Salomon Kalou, the Chelsea players in the Ivory Coast squad.
"Didier was saying that he has won this trophy two times with Chelsea and I couldn't say anything in reply. But I will do my talking on the pitch and I told him 'I will see you on 24 February'.
B-C I respect your opinion. However, in general, I think passing stats are highly misleading. Indeed, nearly all football statistics have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. There are so many variables that they fail to take into account. In Zokora's case, I suspect the reason why he has a high completion rate will almost certainly be because of the lack of ambition and lack of range in his passing. I'm sure Ray Wilkins, in his square ball days, would have had a fantastic completion rate.
I know from watching a player like Carrick that he has "pictures in his head". In other words, he sees the pass long before he plays it, and this is what gives him the time to play confidently and effectively in very tight areas. I remember seeing Carrick as a young teenager playing for the U21s, and his outstanding passing ability was plain as day. Equally, from a season and a half of watching Zokora, I know that he doesn't have "pictures in his head", he doesn't see the pass early, so he often ends up just shuffling it on to the nearest player. And no statistical analysis is ever going to change my opinion on this.
Tainio plays with his head up, and has decent vision. I've seen him play a couple of reverse balls that Zokora won't make even if he plays till he's 98. And O'Hara also plays with his head up, is neat and tidy, and can see and deliver a long ball as well as anyone in the squad with the exception of Huddlestone.
B-C I'm sure you'll disagree with this. And as above, I respect your opinion. But mine is that Zokora will always be patchy and limited in his passing range, even if the stats show that he completes a lot of passes.
B-C I respect your opinion. However, in general, I think passing stats are highly misleading. Indeed, nearly all football statistics have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. There are so many variables that they fail to take into account. In Zokora's case, I suspect the reason why he has a high completion rate will almost certainly be because of the lack of ambition and lack of range in his passing. I'm sure Ray Wilkins, in his square ball days, would have had a fantastic completion rate.
I know from watching a player like Carrick that he has "pictures in his head". In other words, he sees the pass long before he plays it, and this is what gives him the time to play confidently and effectively in very tight areas. I remember seeing Carrick as a young teenager playing for the U21s, and his outstanding passing ability was plain as day. Equally, from a season and a half of watching Zokora, I know that he doesn't have "pictures in his head", he doesn't see the pass early, so he often ends up just shuffling it on to the nearest player. And no statistical analysis is ever going to change my opinion on this.
Tainio plays with his head up, and has decent vision. I've seen him play a couple of reverse balls that Zokora won't make even if he plays till he's 98. And O'Hara also plays with his head up, is neat and tidy, and can see and deliver a long ball as well as anyone in the squad with the exception of Huddlestone.
B-C I'm sure you'll disagree with this. And as above, I respect your opinion. But mine is that Zokora will always be patchy and limited in his passing range, even if the stats show that he completes a lot of passes.
None of which proves anything of course, but that statistics back up the evidence of my eyes. What they don't show is all the occasions DZ goes haring up the field and leaves the defence exposed, it doesn't show the times he fails to make the pass when it really matters, and it doesn't show the superior effect TT often seems to have on the team when compared to DZ, how TT liberates JJ while DZ often seems to hobble him.
The stats applied to this season alone, one in which both have been asked to play a variety of unfamiliar positions.On the issue of Zokora v Tainio statistics, I'd like to know the time frame on those you quote.
Zokora has played a lot in CM, but has also played several times at the back under Ramos. Tainio has hardly played under Ramos, but has been used out of position at RB. Under Jol, TT was hardly ever played in CM. So, given this constant switching of positions, the statistics you quote are highly unlikely to be comparing one CM with another CM - which is the crux of this debate. In other words, I suspect those stats are fundamentally meaningless in this debate.
I'm assuming that the part of your quote I've highlighted is where you agree that Zokora's C/DM game has severe limitations. That's my case too. Now, Ramos can introduce "discipline" into Zoko's game by forbidding him from making those eyecatching but unproductive surging runs. But he can't coach him into regularly making "killer" passes on training ground.
All stats aside, Tainio's performance against Fabregas in CCSF2 was top class. He owned Fabregas, and enabled the rest of our midfield to play. If Zokora ever plays like that, he'll deserve his own special booth in the Spurs Hall of Fame.
And I disagree with your claims about reading the game, keeping the ball moving and passing of the ball and whether you agree with stats or not, they can't make a mis-placed pass - placed, an un-made pass - made, an un-missed tackle - missed.
I could drag up plenty of statistics of other players from other teams whom we both agree to be pants and the statistics would show this to be so, equally i could show you the statistics of players we agree to be exceptional and they would also bear that out. In other words statistics don't tell the full story but nor do they out-right lie.
I can't agree.
Let's consider a Spurs legend, and a player with world class passing ability: Glenn Hoddle. His passing stats would depend partly on how well he personally was playing. But they would also depend on who he was playing with.
I remember one season when our strikers were the likes of Chris Jones and Gerry Armstrong: hard working, but limited players. Hoddle decided they weren't going to score lots of goals so he used them as a wall for 1-2s, and scored 19 goals in 41 league matches. The next season, our strikers were genuine goalscorers, Archibald and Crooks.
I'd love to see the difference in Hoddle's passing completion stats for those two seasons. I suspect his passing completion rate would have gone down, suggesting he was playing worse with Archibald and Crooks even though the team was more successful. And I say that because one of my abiding memories is of Archibald refusing to chase Hoddle through balls that he considered inaccurate, and turning and berating Hoddle. Those passes would presumably have been recorded as incomplete - or "misplaced" to use your terminology. And yet if Hoddle hadn't attempted those types of through balls, Archibald and Crooks wouldn't haven't scored nearly 50 goals between them that season.
Statistics are highly dangerous things. I've seen my industry pretty much destroyed by the misuse of statistics by management consultants. If a player keeps on misplacing simple passes, I can see that with my very own eyes, thankyouverymuch. If, on the other hand, they're attempting difficult passes which if they come off will result in a goalscoring chance, then I don't want them to stop making those passes just because their statistical "pass completion" rate will be pants.
Someone mention my name? :wink:
I elaborated in this thread:
http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=27074&page=7
Here's the core of it, comparing Tainio, O'Hara and Zokora as potential partners for JJ in CM:
It would be great if Ramos could turn Zokora into a top quality DM. But I have my doubts and examining the key skills of Tainio, O'Hara and Zokora, here's why:
i) passing ability - both Tainio and O'Hara are far superior short, quick passers of the ball to Zokora;
ii) reading of the game - both Tainio & O'Hara read the game much better than Zokora in a CM/DM position. After Ramos switched him, Zokora played very well as a spare or main CB, but it's easier to read the game and step out to break up play when you're playing in the back four. Tainio's display against Fabregas in the 2nd semi final was a masterclass in reading the game as a disciplined C/DM. I've never seen Zokora show anything like this ability when he's played in CM;
iii) speed and athleticism. Here Zokora is absolutely the winner. But as outstanding C/DMs like Carrick and Makelele have proven, speed of foot is far less important than speed of thought in the position. If you can read the game, you can be in the correct position to nick the ball or close down the opposition. Whereas I think Zokora's speed is far more useful when he plays in defence: it means we can play a high line, because he's not going to get beaten by the ball over the top, and it's the reason why he was so effective stepping up to break up play.
So, in short, the reason I believe Tainio and O'Hara are better bets for the C/DM position alongside JJ is because they're better short passers of the ball and superior readers of the game. And whilst I hold Juande in very high regard, I don't think passing and reading of the game can be coached on the training ground in a few weeks.
Yanno, I hate to point out the glaringly obvious floor in your argument above but you actually aren't supplying any statistics that prove or disprove your theory here ?
If your perspective is that Tainio & Ohara are better short passers than Zokora now - which is clearly wrong - what's to say your perception of hoddles stats would be wrong 25 years ago.
Personally I was to busy enjoying the football we played back then to even consider stats. Somehow they didn't ever enter my head except occasionally in retrospect I wondered if anyone ever out possessed us ?