Ratings vs Arsenal

Mr Pink · Sep 28, 2014

Bus-Conductor said:
@Blake Griffin

Why do continually try to boil everything down to a debate about possession.

This isn't a debate about possession v non possession. That's a pointless debate, taken to it's simplest form - winning - non possession gets fucking mullered by possession almost everywhere, in almost any competition worth a wank for decades.

But taken on an individual, game by game, tactical flexibility basis, there is no right or wrong. I have never said there is. I have a general preference, based on what I believe to be proven to be the most successful way to sustain winning, but I accept and very much enjoy tactical variation. The manager I probably respect the most is Mourinho, a man who's has no beautiful possession philosophy, just the ability to adapt and win.

The team I enjoy watching as much as anyone over the last few years is Klopp's Dortmund. Another team who frequently yield possession for a robust press and quick transition game.

Dortmund had 44% of the possession against Arsenal last week, but absolutely caned them. Suffocated them and tore them to shreds.

What I want to see in any approach we take is some cohesion, some intelligence.

What disappointed me enormously yesterday was not that we tried to take a more pragmatic approach. I said before the game, whilst not expecting us to emulate Dortmund, that should be a blue print. In the match thread I said what will matter most will be what we do without the ball. Hardly a possession based concern. I thought the press was what Poch was all about. Look what Liverpool did to them last year. What disappointed me was how poorly we operated this so called "pragmatism".

Our pressing was non existent, certainly until about our own 30 yard line. There was no cohesion to any of our defending, just a lot of backs to the wall desperation. And as for our counter attacking, it was laughable.

The only reason we squeaked a point out of what 2 real chances ? is that Arsenal were so fucking abysmally inept creatively themselves. Not because we were so tactically, or even defensively good.

I think many of you take no account of how tactically poor Wenger can be, and was yesterday. He is failing to get the best out of players like Oezil (played in a position he has repeatedly looked poor in), Wilshere, Sanchez (preferring to play Oxlade Chamberlain who is just Lennon with bollocks) is evidence of that.

I don't mind tactical pragmatism at all, but that is not what I saw yesterday. What I saw yesterday was more tactical vacuumism.

And I am pretty sure 80% of those claiming it, would have been slaughtering it if Lloris doesn't make an incredible save late on. They'd have been the first on here calling it tactical bendoverism and giving everyone 0's, 1's, 2's.

BC, it wasn't just two chances though was it. We posed a threat on the counter. We might of fucked up the actual move a few times but they were there to be beaten had we constructed the moves better and we should of done. Anybody watching that game objectively would conclude that we had the better attacking situations. Our tactics resulted in them huffing and puffing with their possession. Nobody is calling it a tactical master class, its been done by plenty of sides visiting the Emirates, in fact its an obvious way to frustrate and expose them.

We defended deep in a shape, that saw us sit and congest that central area that they love to play through - which saw several counter attacking situations develop.

And had we scored three, which wouldn't of flattered us given the chances we created, I supposed you would of declared that a fluke.

Blake Griffin · Sep 28, 2014

Bus-Conductor said:
@Blake Griffin

Why do continually try to boil everything down to a debate about possession.

This isn't a debate about possession v non possession. That's a pointless debate, taken to it's simplest form - winning - non possession gets fucking mullered by possession almost everywhere, in almost any competition worth a wank for decades.

But taken on an individual, game by game, tactical flexibility basis, there is no right or wrong. I have never said there is. I have a general preference, based on what I believe to be proven to be the most successful way to sustain winning, but I accept and very much enjoy tactical variation. The manager I probably respect the most is Mourinho, a man who's has no beautiful possession philosophy, just the ability to adapt and win.

The team I enjoy watching as much as anyone over the last few years is Klopp's Dortmund. Another team who frequently yield possession for a robust press and quick transition game.

Dortmund had 44% of the possession against Arsenal last week, but absolutely caned them. Suffocated them and tore them to shreds.

What I want to see in any approach we take is some cohesion, some intelligence.

What disappointed me enormously yesterday was not that we tried to take a more pragmatic approach. I said before the game, whilst not expecting us to emulate Dortmund, that should be a blue print. In the match thread I said what will matter most will be what we do without the ball. Hardly a possession based concern. I thought the press was what Poch was all about. Look what Liverpool did to them last year. What disappointed me was how poorly we operated this so called "pragmatism".

Our pressing was non existent, certainly until about our own 30 yard line. There was no cohesion to any of our defending, just a lot of backs to the wall desperation. And as for our counter attacking, it was laughable.

The only reason we squeaked a point out of what 2 real chances ? is that Arsenal were so fucking abysmally inept creatively themselves. Not because we were so tactically, or even defensively good.

I think many of you take no account of how tactically poor Wenger can be, and was yesterday. He is failing to get the best out of players like Oezil (played in a position he has repeatedly looked poor in), Wilshere, Sanchez (preferring to play Oxlade Chamberlain who is just Lennon with bollocks) is evidence of that.

I don't mind tactical pragmatism at all, but that is not what I saw yesterday. What I saw yesterday was more tactical vacuumism.

And I am pretty sure 80% of those claiming it, would have been slaughtering it if Lloris doesn't make an incredible save late on. They'd have been the first on here calling it tactical bendoverism and giving everyone 0's, 1's, 2's.

i don't want to get into an sp-esque essay war with you. just a few things though, your two examples(dortmund and liverpool) were both at home to arsenal, we'll see whether dortmund try the same approach at the emirates and i don't recall liverpool faring too well there last season. you say you love mourinho because of ability to adapt and win? what poch did yesterday is exactly what jose has been doing for years, only difference being jose has generally had the attacking players to pull off the win whereas poch doesn't quite have that - we came close though. i also don't believe if your gameplan is to contain and counter that you need to press, that would actually be counterproductive to what you're trying to implement, sure you can hope to pounce at opportune moments like we did for the goal yesterday but the plan is to conserve energy and stay compact to limit the space for the opposition, if we had players pressing all over the pitch then those two facets go straight out of the window.

as for the chances we created, they may not all have ended with a shot on goal(which is all you'll see in the stats) but we created plenty of openings where we were let down by a poor final ball or decision, with more composed play we really could've torn into them as there were multiple times during that game where we had 3v2 / 3v3 with them desperately running back to their own goal. despite only having 31% of the ball i always felt we were fairly comfortable defensively, it wasn't just because arsenal were shit as you're trying to claim, it's because trying to break down a team playing the way we did yesterday is really bloody hard. on the other side of the ball i thought we were far more of a threat than we were in the same game last season, unfortunately stats won't show us being one better decision away from potentially scoring but they will show townsend and paulinho taking half a dozen worthless shots each. oh and as bear has said above, hugo did well yesterday but he had more to do last year despite us dominating.

ShaunL84 · Sep 28, 2014

I thought Vertonghen was just as good as Kaboul.
Younes got the headlines but Jan did the silent work.

Lufti · Sep 28, 2014

Bus-Conductor said:
It's not just about possession v not possession Mr P. We were shit without the ball. watch what Dortmund did to Arsenal. I'm not expecting us to be that good, but we could have pressed them, and maybe caused them some problems and counter attacked without taking too many risks.. We had 11 touches of the ball in their fucking end.

If you're going to tell me you enjoyed that bollocks more than last season or think those tactics, if that's what they were, are more viable than even risk averse possession then you are a lost cause Mr P.

That today was the bottom level of tactical basics. Turn up, park and pray. Any **** can come up with that plan.

@Blake Griffin probably invented it in his bedroom on his 11th birthday.

Glad you used Dortmund as an example as I was gonna use them too. Yes Dortmund employed the perfect gameplan when they played against Arsenal at home. The two key words there being, at home. Do you really think they're going to do the same thing at the Emirates? I'll be very surprised. I'd imagine they'll sit deep and counter attack in a similar fashion to us, albeit with their quality of players they'll pose a more significant threat on the counter. But that can't be helped from our side, we can't ask to borrow Aubemeyang and Mikhataryan on loan for the game. The tactics employed were correct.

mpickard2087 · Sep 28, 2014

Blake Griffin said:
i also don't believe if your gameplan is to contain and counter that you need to press, that would actually be counterproductive to what you're trying to implement, sure you can hope to pounce at opportune moments like we did for the goal yesterday but the plan is to conserve energy and stay compact to limit the space for the opposition, if we had players pressing all over the pitch then those two facets go straight out of the window.

This bit is bang on.

The only issue we had in regards to off-the-ball work was that for large parts Adebayor and Chadli weren't really getting back in behind the ball quick enough and being the first line of defence to break down. As you say, the gameplan was not about pressing and going looking for them.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 28, 2014

Spurs_Bear said:
I don't have an issue with 80% of what you have written, I don't agree with it, but at least you've attacked why and where you think we could have been better.

Where I have an enormous issue, is this little paragraph right here. Lloris might have made one monstrous save, yet last year, when we actually lost the game and came away with nothing, the same goalkeeper made FOUR world class saves to keep us at 1-0 down, yet you tried to describe last year as our "best performance in years at the Emirates" or something similar...with the crux of the reasoning being...we had more fucking possession.

You're all about continuity and application, practice it and preach it mate.

Surely that is the point. I didn't change my opinion of the performance because we lost.

I guess 80% comprehension isn't bad.

Rout-Ledge · Sep 28, 2014

We were, without doubt, more dangerous this year at the Emirates than last.

thinktank · Sep 28, 2014

dynamoSpurs said:
I'm just talking about his physical attributes... He's soooo sluggish and as I said, his step overs are very very predictable and they make me cringe.

It's all happening because of the reason I detailed in my post. That's not his M.O.- he's trying too hard and thinking too hard.

yankspurs · Sep 28, 2014

Adebayor
2 vote(s)
0.5%

Okay, which 2 of you voted Ade? What drugs were you on and can I have some? (y)

Seriously though, explain yourselves.

Mr Pink · Sep 28, 2014

Blake Griffin said:
i don't want to get into an sp-esque essay war with you. just a few things though, your two examples(dortmund and liverpool) were both at home to arsenal, we'll see whether dortmund try the same approach at the emirates and i don't recall liverpool faring too well there last season. you say you love mourinho because of ability to adapt and win? what poch did yesterday is exactly what jose has been doing for years, only difference being jose has generally had the attacking players to pull off the win whereas poch doesn't quite have that - we came close though. i also don't believe if your gameplan is to contain and counter that you need to press, that would actually be counterproductive to what you're trying to implement, sure you can hope to pounce at opportune moments like we did for the goal yesterday but the plan is to conserve energy and stay compact to limit the space for the opposition, if we had players pressing all over the pitch then those two facets go straight out of the window.

as for the chances we created, they may not all have ended with a shot on goal(which is all you'll see in the stats) but we created plenty of openings where we were let down by a poor final ball or decision, with more composed play we really could've torn into them as there were multiple times during that game where we had 3v2 / 3v3 with them desperately running back to their own goal. despite only having 31% of the ball i always felt we were fairly comfortable defensively, it wasn't just because arsenal were shit as you're trying to claim, it's because trying to break down a team playing the way we did yesterday is really bloody hard. on the other side of the ball i thought we were far more of a threat than we were in the same game last season, unfortunately stats won't show us being one better decision away from potentially scoring but they will show townsend and paulinho taking half a dozen worthless shots each. oh and as bear has said above, hugo did well yesterday but he had more to do last year despite us dominating.

Excellent post Blake.

And that's the whole point in terms of our game plan yesterday. It was never to swarm all over Arsenal pressing aggressively from the front.

In order to keep a shape you have to stay compact so although it invites the opposition on to you, because you're not actively pressing to win it back constantly, you're set up in a way that makes it very difficult for them to play through you - which is what they love to do and what they're best at.

So yes, the game plan was first to negate their main strength, but also to expose what they've shown to be vulnerable with time and time again - the counter attack.

So many recent examples of this but the best counter attacking goal I saw at the Emirates was a United one. In fact there were two great ones in the same game. A couple of season's back when Park was playing for United - he scored one of them. The other Rooney scored, and it just ripped Arsenal apart - it was great counter attacking football, think he combined with Nani, and it just ripped Arsenal to shreds.

One thing I agree with BC on here is that Wenger is tactically poor, or stubborn might be a better word. That's why they won't win the League anytime soon though - he simply won't entertain any other way.

They had no real answer to what we're doing last night and there goal was fortunate the way it broke in the box for them. Some might say deserved given their domination of the ball, I wouldn't really. But the point is we wern't lucky to get a point like BC alludes to. Our game plan was spot on. We had the better attacking situations and we really should of won the game - that's the only disappointment I have.

I was proud of the performance, particularly when you consider the pressure we were under to see a real improvement.

That's as dangerous as we've looked at the Emirates in a long time IMO and I don't know why some are so disappointed.

Yes work towards a blueprint but what's wrong with having different blueprints in your locker for different opposition and styles.

I'd like to see a repeat of such tactics the next time we play them and hopefully we'll punish them more on the counter next time.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 28, 2014

Blake Griffin said:
as for the chances we created, they may not all have ended with a shot on goal(which is all you'll see in the stats) but we created plenty of openings where we were let down by a poor final ball or decision,

@Spurs_Bear and the hypocrisy police will be all over this any minute now. Last year at the Emirates when some of us pointed out that our approach play was often decent and the only reason we didn't create better/more chances with it was for the self same reason of poor decision/execution it was called - with you as one of the cheerleaders - pointless possession.

So presumably you will be calling yesterday pointless no possession ?

jonathanhotspur · Sep 28, 2014

Blake Griffin said:
i don't want to get into an sp-esque essay war with you. just a few things though, your two examples(dortmund and liverpool) were both at home to arsenal, we'll see whether dortmund try the same approach at the emirates and i don't recall liverpool faring too well there last season. you say you love mourinho because of ability to adapt and win? what poch did yesterday is exactly what jose has been doing for years, only difference being jose has generally had the attacking players to pull off the win whereas poch doesn't quite have that - we came close though. i also don't believe if your gameplan is to contain and counter that you need to press, that would actually be counterproductive to what you're trying to implement, sure you can hope to pounce at opportune moments like we did for the goal yesterday but the plan is to conserve energy and stay compact to limit the space for the opposition, if we had players pressing all over the pitch then those two facets go straight out of the window.

Generally speaking, Mourinho's teams work their absolute bollocks off. Ade and Chadli strolled around all evening when Arsenal were in possession.

Let's clear up the notion that pressing is not pressing unless it happens inside the opposition's half-it is not.

To make my own position clear, I hate sterile possession football and the way Real demolished Bayern last season gave me a tremendous horn.

Black · Sep 28, 2014

ShaunL84 said:
I thought Vertonghen was just as good as Kaboul.
Younes got the headlines but Jan did the silent work.

I wouldn't agree with you Kabul was everywhere blocking everything

mpickard2087 · Sep 28, 2014

yankspurs said:
Okay, which 2 of you voted Ade? What drugs were you on and can I have some?

Seriously though, explain yourselves.

I did.

Reason: Coz I can.

Blake Griffin · Sep 28, 2014

Bus-Conductor said:
@Spurs_Bear and the hypocrisy police will be all over this any minute now. Last year at the Emirates when some of us pointed out that our approach play was often decent and the only reason we didn't create better/more chances with it was for the self same reason of poor decision/execution it was called - with you as one of the cheerleaders - pointless possession.

So presumably you will be calling yesterday pointless no possession ?

approach play isn't the same as possession, well not in my book at least. last year we had good possession, well, i say good, more like plenty rather than good. arsenal weren't fussed about us having it, we generally went nowhere, it was all very slow and it generally always ended in a low % pot shot. maybe i misremember but i can't recall us making any inroads until around the 90th minute when walker took a swing and miss from about 10 yards, that's about all we offered in terms of goal threat. there were no openings where a poor decision or pass cost us because we were too slow to even get into such a position.

Mr Pink · Sep 28, 2014

Blake Griffin said:
approach play isn't the same as possession, well not in my book at least. last year we had good possession, well, i say good, more like plenty rather than good. arsenal weren't fussed about us having it, we generally went nowhere, it was all very slow and it generally always ended in a low % pot shot. maybe i misremember but i can't recall us making any inroads until around the 90th minute when walker took a swing and miss from about 10 yards, that's about all we offered in terms of goal threat. there were no openings where a poor decision or pass cost us because we were too slow to even get into such a position.

From what I remember we started making a few inroads with about 10-15 minutes to go, and then Soldado had that one real chance that came quickly to him.

But we didn't create any clear cut openings nor did I ever feel we looked threatening, we simply didn't. We looked comfortable for large periods but never threatening, there's a distinct difference.

Last night we didn't have anywhere near the same level of that comfortable, but non threatening, possession.

A lot of the ball we saw was on the counter - attacking the spaces ahead of us, and that simply resulted in us looking more threatening. The only disappointment of the night was not making more of these attacking and threatening situations.

Its a strong feeling based on what happened for most of us, and you don't need to consult stats for confirmation either.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 28, 2014

Lufti said:
Glad you used Dortmund as an example as I was gonna use them too. Yes Dortmund employed the perfect gameplan when they played against Arsenal at home. The two key words there being, at home. Do you really think they're going to do the same thing at the Emirates? I'll be very surprised. I'd imagine they'll sit deep and counter attack in a similar fashion to us, albeit with their quality of players they'll pose a more significant threat on the counter. But that can't be helped from our side, we can't ask to borrow Aubemeyang and Mikhataryan on loan for the game. The tactics employed were correct.

How about Dortmund at Arsenal last season ?

If you read what I said, I said I didn't expect us to be as competent or proficient as Dortmund. I would just liked to have seen some aggression. Some desire to implement something other than sit back and pray.

The idea of sitting deeper and counter attacking might have been correct. Our implementation of it was piss poor. I've seen much poorer teams with worse resources than us do it better to Arsenal.

jezz · Sep 28, 2014

mpickard2087 said:
I did.

Reason: Coz I can.

Seriously?

THFCSPURS19 · Sep 28, 2014

Bus-Conductor said:
Our implementation of it was piss poor.

Nope, still don't get how this conclusion has been reached.

SoulDog · Sep 28, 2014

Horrible game to watch from where we was sitting so I really cannot do ratings but 2nd half it looked they were all over us

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