Last Bit of UEFA Chat

[ScotBear]

I might be wrong, but I think Yid-ol is referring to Villarreal away in the Champions League run under Big Eck.

He's well informed then, because I don't even know about a coach incident in Villareal ! Not saying it didn't happen, but was it really a serious incident ? I think we could go around all clubs and pick away at the odd incidents that unfortunately occur now and again.

There just seems to be a lot of generalisation going on. We travel all over europe this season, no troubles.......and then on one day where every Tom, Dick and Harry unfortunately turned up to get pissed and have a street party.......people are trying to use it to dent the reputation of the club as a whole.

If the final had been played abroad, it wouldn't have happened in my view. Not because Manchester authorities were at fault in any way, but just because, like our other trips this season, there would have been no easy access for the thugs and scum element in our society to latch onto our support for the day.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

He's well informed then, because I don't even know about a coach incident in Villareal ! Not saying it didn't happen, but was it really a serious incident ? I think we could go around all clubs and pick away at the odd incidents that unfortunately occur now and again.

It was quite well documented at the time.

Here's a link :up:

It's mentioned in the last paragraph.

 

[ScotBear]

Not headline stuff though, one paragraph ! An unfortunate incident, but if one guy breaks a window, it's hardly damning of a whole support.

 

[ChRiStOpHe]

Not headline stuff though, one paragraph ! An unfortunate incident, but if one guy breaks a window, it's hardly damning of a whole support.

With a quick Google, that was the 1st link that came up. I didn't bother looking part the first one once I'd found the situation in question confirmed.

I'm sure if you want you could find a big ol' article if you looked

Also, I'm not being funny, but I can't remember hearing about any other team breaking the oppositions coach window, so in that respect, it is a big thing.

 

[ScotBear]

One fan breaking a window is a big deal.........hardly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7050190.stm

Incidents will always occur, within all groups of football fans.

"But the number of arrests for violent disorder fell to 337, the lowest ever figure, from 358 in 2005/06.
Tottenham had the most fans arrested for this offence (30)..."

Should I look at statistics like that and generalise Tottenham fans as being the most violent fans in England ? Of course not, that would be ridiculous.

 

[GeneralBurk]

He's well informed then, because I don't even know about a coach incident in Villareal ! Not saying it didn't happen, but was it really a serious incident ? I think we could go around all clubs and pick away at the odd incidents that unfortunately occur now and again.

There just seems to be a lot of generalisation going on. We travel all over europe this season, no troubles.......and then on one day where every Tom, Dick and Harry unfortunately turned up to get pissed and have a street party.......people are trying to use it to dent the reputation of the club as a whole.

If the final had been played abroad, it wouldn't have happened in my view. Not because Manchester authorities were at fault in any way, but just because, like our other trips this season, there would have been no easy access for the thugs and scum element in our society to latch onto our support for the day.

The fact that there were only 40+ arrests does not tell the whole story. What about the fact that Rangers fans in colours trashed The Paramount pub on Oxford Road and the outside of the casino next door at 2pm, what about the fact that Rangers fans in colours were ripping trims off cars as they tried to drive through the city centre and as for the sectarian chanting being eradicated? Utter poppycock! If I ever have to hear Simply The Best sung by a bunch of moronic nutters again it will be too soon.

As a bar owner in the city centre I witnessed a catalogue of incidents throughout the day that went unreported by the media and the police. Ultimately the only way people got arrested was possibly for headbutting someone in front of the police or probably for headbutting a police officer. The transport, bars and the rest of the city centre was closed due to the obvious safety issues of relevant staff members. Rangers fans even managed to wreck a fleet of taxis.

The Council gravely underestimated the impact of 150,000 fans coming down to the game and should have either set up a fan zone at Heaton Park away from the city centre or simply provided nothing an set up an alcohol exclusion zone closing all bars, restaurants and most importantly the supermarkets; who were guilty for selling ridiculously cheap lager and wine to already drunk fans.

Residents were quite suprised that this did not happen after the last time Rangers came to Manchester in the Champions League and brought with them a whole heap of trouble and the police were forced to close all the pubs.

 

[ScotBear]

Of course 40 odd arrests does not tell the whole story. And unfortunately, of course there was going to be pockets of trouble where 150,000+ fans travel down.

The bigger picture though was that the police and the council praised the atmosphere and conduct of fans throughout the day. And even after the rioting, UEFA, the police and the council all emphasised that the trouble was caused by a 'small minority'.

Yes, people will have their own stories about poor conduct and trouble that arose here and there. But overall, the overwhelming majority of our fans behaved themselves and were a credit to the club.

It certainly doesn't seem right to put a negative image on a group of supporters that travelled to 8 or 9 different away trips during the season, without one arrest or any reports of trouble.......and then label them all under the one heading because of groups of morons that decided they wanted to latch onto our fans for a street party.....and in more sinister cases, an organised street fight.

 

[bomberH]

One final thing i'd like to say.

Obviously the people involved are ****s, but in any walk of life, if there's 150/200 thousand people in the same location, there's going to be a percentage that want to cause trouble. I've no doubt in my mind 95% of any other team's fans would be the same. But i don't want to use that as an excuse for what happened. The fans involved, and i do believe they were all Rangers fans, were ****s. But it just so happened to be Rangers that day. Could've been anyone, so i'm not aiming any anger at Rangers as a whole.

Night x

 

[GeneralBurk]

Personally, and this goes for all teams not just Rangers, these guys are fans and not just morons looking for a ruck. They are aware of the history, strengths weaknessess etc and can converse with other likeminded fans debating relevant apects and issues affecting the their club.

However whenever crowd trouble happens the clubs and other fans are quick to disassociate themselves in a naive belief that they are not 'real' fans when they are in fact season ticket holders and unfortunately more atypical football fans than we would like to think.

 

[ScotBear]

Personally, and this goes for all teams not just Rangers, these guys are fans and not just morons looking for a ruck. They are aware of the history, strengths weaknessess etc and can converse with other likeminded fans debating relevant apects and issues affecting the their club.

However whenever crowd trouble happens the clubs and other fans are quick to disassociate themselves in a naive belief that they are not 'real' fans when they are in fact season ticket holders and unfortunately more atypical football fans than we would like to think.​

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None of the guys arrested were season ticket holders. As far as the club and police are aware, they have no association with the club whatsoever, past or present. So I don't really know where you get that idea from.......

Also, those arrested seem to have been arrested for more minor offences. The police seem to have failed to arrest any of the actual rioters, which is both disappointing and strange.

The atypical football fans on the day were the guys around the fanzones, creating a sea of blue. The rioting scenes of a group charging the police are a completely different looking bunch than the fans we saw during the day, plain clothed.

 

[Blotto]

[/I][/LEFT]

None of the guys arrested were season ticket holders. As far as the club and police are aware, they have no association with the club whatsoever, past or present. So I don't really know where you get that idea from.......

Also, those arrested seem to have been arrested for more minor offences. The police seem to have failed to arrest any of the actual rioters, which is both disappointing and strange.

The atypical football fans on the day were the guys around the fanzones, creating a sea of blue. The rioting scenes of a group charging the police are a completely different looking bunch than the fans we saw during the day, plain clothed.

The footage I saw (link earlier in this thread) showed a number of blokes in Rangers shirts--this whole excuse that it was other thugs is so old, been saying that in England since the 80s at least. The footage doesn't lie.

...unless it was some sort of plot, like how America faked the moon landing--those people were all actors and none of the riots actually happened (explaining the arrests), they made sure to put some in Rangers and some not so that it would be more realistic...and and it just shows that there is a concerted effort to discredit the Gers that originates at the highest levels...yeah, that's the most likely scenario.

 

[ScotBear]

An interesting article from the Daily Record.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-riot-the-police-lost-control-86908-20418966/

BEING on the wrong end of a full-scale charge by police in riot gear is not an experience I'll want to remember.
One minute the police had lined up, batons drawn and shields up, the next all hell broke loose.
The police charges seemed ad-hoc, ill-planned and badly co-ordinated.
One minute they drove fans in one direction, the next it was another.
This meant that innocent people who had little knowledge of what was going on became embroiled through no fault of their own.
Some, taken by surprise, were simply not fast enough to outrun the police, who brought in vans and dogs.
The trigger had been a small number of "fans" who goaded the police by going eye-to-eye with them or chucking a bottle.
And it was remarkable that almost none of the ringleaders wore club colours or spoke with a Scottish accent. There were, however, many English and Northern Irish accents.
However, no matter who was involved, the charge by the police was indiscriminate.
Anyone in their line of advance was a potential target, or so it seemed.
This meant that when the charge began, the first of a dozen when police frankly lost control of Manchester city centre, those fans who had provoked it scattered quickly, leaving innocents behind to deal with the consequences.
This was Piccadilly Gardens, the main fan zone in Manchester's showpiece UEFA Cup final celebration.
I can remember running back with my right hand up to protect myself from any baton blow.
People were being chased into a confined space with no obvious escape route.
Thankfully, the full-on police charge halted short of me and I escaped intact.
Others were not quite so lucky though. I saw baton blows being landed on heads. Maybe police were aiming for the upper arm but the blows did land on heads.
The next thing I saw was more clear cut. This time, three riot officers chased one man who fell to his knees next to the shutters of a shop.
Despite the fact he was down, a baton blow hit him square on the back, quickly followed by another.
The police officer who cuffed him saw fit to land three kicks to the kidney area. The next two hours were punctuated by similar charges where drunk hooligans went face to face with the police.
Each time more riot police were bussed in, the buses themselves along with police cars became immediate targets for bottles.
My colleague Craig McDonald was also caught up, though in a different area.
Several people had hit the deck and showed no sign of getting up any time soon.
Ambulances were allowed through the mob but police vans and cars were instant targets.
It was a good idea to crouch in a shop doorway or a nearby alley because there was no way of telling where the next missile was going to land.
I saw many people with head injuries and baying macho fronts on both sides. A small group of thugs were taunting the police to come forward, which they did at speed, some thumping their batons against their shields. As a bottle was thrown, one cop wearing helmet and visor chose to meet it with a headbutt.
As the chaos continued I saw elderly people trying to flee and mothers running with toddlers in their arms or in their chairs.
At one point, police bundled two Record photographers into a police van for their "own safety" - only for other police to force them out again seconds later.
Only when the police cleared out, leaving no target for the bottle throwers, did things calm down. Zenit fans mingled with Rangers fans with no inter-fan fighting.
We were shocked by the trouble but not surprised.
I was uneasy at 4pm on Wednesday.
I had arrived at Piccadilly Gardens and was even then concerned by the huge numbers on the streets.
Yes, it was a carnival atmosphere.
But there were too many people. Even at that stage there were too many, causing bottlenecks and potential for crushing.
As I made my way to another fan zone at Cathedral Gardens it dawned on me there were too many fans in the city as a whole.
Police and stewards were doing their best but there were not enough of them.
It struck me police had badly misjudged numbers of fans. There seemed to be double the anticipated 100,000.
Manchester City Council had told us they were used to huge sporting events and could cope.
Fan zones with a combined capacity of 22,000 just didn't stack up.
The trouble on the streets seemed to be sparked when a huge screen in the main fan zone broke down five minutes before kick-off. For 15 minutes, a sign on the screen said the link from the stadium was being repaired.
Then the screen went blank.
At this point, thousands of angry fans tried to get to the other big screens elsewhere in the city centre.
At first, police allowed access down Oldham Street. Then a line of riot police blocked the street off.
When aggressive riot police line up, it is highly intimidating. It seems to bring out aggressive and intimidating behaviour in people that way inclined.
The worst of the trouble began when the riot police arrived. It stopped when the riot police left.

 

[ScotBear]

Blotto,

I too have seen Rangers fans visible in some of the footage. However, the key piece of footage that they keep showing again and again and again......where there are thugs charging at police and one of the policemen falls over......in that footage there are no Rangers tops or colours to be seen.

As the reporter says in the above article I posted, many innocent people got caught up in the trouble. They didn't know what was going on, where to go and were being given conflicting advice in some cases. And as the reporter above states, the charges from the police were completely indiscriminate.

In the following footage, you can see a Rangers fan just casually standing beside his mate. Not looking threatening in any way. Yet a member of the riot police angles his run towards him to batter him to the ground. Ridiculous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7402817.stm

 

[LSUY]

An interesting article from the Daily Record.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-riot-the-police-lost-control-86908-20418966/

That was like reading the Sun. I especially liked how the writer managed to take out the inconvenient bits (e.g. the mob attacking paramedics). If he carries on like this he might one day get to write for the Mirror or the Mail.

However, the key piece of footage that they keep showing again and again and again......where there are thugs charging at police and one of the policemen falls over......in that footage there are no Rangers tops or colours to be seen.

I've seen that footage and I can pick out a fair number of Rangers shirts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7406351.stm

Pause the video after 24 seconds and you will see a Rangers shirt. You'll then see a whole load more people wearing Rangers shirts or colours charging towards the police.

 

[Yid-ol]

Yid-ol, I really don't think you have a clue what you're talking about ! The throwing stuff at coaches incident was Celtic fans with the media coaches, a season or two ago. And I'm not even interested in condemning Celtic fans for that, it was a minor incident and would be a petty point to dwell on.

As for Rangers fans get thrown out of most grounds in Scotland......what are you on about ? What instances of that has there been this season ? I don't doubt the odd idiot might get thrown out now and again, not that I've seen this season though, for being drunk or whatever.......but you make it as if it's some kind of high profile regular occurrance. You've blatently just pulled that line out from where the sun don't shine

As for a 'racist' song.......'sectarian' is actually the proper phrase. It involves the use of the word 'fenian' in a song that has been sung for generations. The actual meaning of this word is to do with mainland terrorism and those that support it, something that was a serious problem for the UK in times gone by. The word is still used all over the world in it's proper context today. However, in the west of Scotland and in Ireland, the word began to be used as a derogotary term. 'Fenian b*stard' being aimed at people. Like the word 'gay', for example, the meaning of the word changed through time, became misinterpreted and offensive. So it reached the point where change had to be made. The club and fans have worked very hard, and there has been an instant reaction. You don't hear it being sung at our games at all now, the change has been almost overnight. That was the key issue. There were also some fans that indulged in singing 'F*ck the pope and the IRA' on occassion. The latter, although not exactly relevant at a football game, I have no problem with, particularly when Celtic fans are regularly singing about their support for them which I find awful. The former I can see why it would be offensive. Although, we know that the former involves himself in some very controversial political viewpoints, but still, I don't think a lot of the fans were concerning themselves with the political issues when chanting it unfortunately. But again, it's been eradicated.

Also, for the guy that said he saw plently of blue in the clips he saw.......what clips were these ? In the clips where it's large groups of fans charging police, the rioters, there is barely any, if any, Rangers strips to be seen. All plain clothed thugs.

In the images where blue strips can be seen, it's where the police are wading through areas where the crowd have begun to disperse. Reports from journalists in the area state that the troublemakers, the plain clothed thugs, were trying to get a reaction from the police. When they did, the thugs retreated and then the police were wading through innocent crowds. There are reports of journalists having to run away holding their heads as police tried to baton them, kids being hit, women and elderly people running away. There is a video on youtube where a Rangers fan is just standing still with his mate, arms by his side, and a policeman runs up and batters him to the ground, before just moving on.

That isn't meant to be a go at the police, although I think some questions can be asked of their actions, but just to illustrate that a lot of innocent fans were caught up in the trouble, but in no way were being aggressive towards the police.

I have done decurity in groudns areound scotland and have firsy hand experience of dealing with Rangers fans in and outside of grounds, i am not going to just aim everything at rangers, all clubs have there bad suporters and all, but i have just foudn at the games the rangers fans normaly tend to be the ones that cause trouble more (again, not all just a certain number of them, and no matter where they seem to travel too) they arnt as bad as they used to be though!

Christophe is correct in the bit i was talking about, and it was in the news up here for a week or so because they were reports that Uefa might hit them hard because of it, i think they ended up just getting a fine though

I dont agree with the actions of the police in it all, i will agree with you there, abit heavy handed, but i was hearing from a rangers mate of mine that strathclyde didnt even pass on information and names of people they knew cause trouble, and manchester were a bit stupid if they didnt get them down to help (dont know if they did or didnt, but they should have come down to help) but the actions of the rangers fans that were involved were well out of line and cant be passed off to just the police's fault, rangers shoudl get hit hard

I might be wrong, but I think Yid-ol is referring to Villarreal away in the Champions League run under Big Eck.

Cheers Christophe, saves me finding the link and trying to remember who it was agaisnt :lol: some rason iv just got into my mind they played afew Spanish teams that year (osasuna(sp)) and had trouble there, though i may be wrong on that one

 

[ScotBear]

That was like reading the Sun. I especially liked how the writer managed to take out the inconvenient bits (e.g. the mob attacking paramedics). If he carries on like this he might one day get to write for the Mirror or the Mail.



I've seen that footage and I can pick out a fair number of Rangers shirts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7406351.stm

Pause the video after 24 seconds and you will see a Rangers shirt. You'll then see a whole load more people wearing Rangers shirts or colours charging towards the police.

It was a first hand account, so he was only stating what he saw himself. Ambulances having bottles thrown at them has been reported in his paper elsewhere in more general articles on the events.

I can see 2 to 3 people there that may have Rangers tops on. It's not that clear, but it looks like the angled Carling badge on their tops. So that's 2-3 with Rangers colours in an entire crowd. I'm not saying that a handful of Rangers fans didn't join in, I'm just saying that I don't believe that the ringleaders or the majority that charged the police were in fact Rangers fans.

 

[GeneralBurk]

It was a first hand account, so he was only stating what he saw himself. Ambulances having bottles thrown at them has been reported in his paper elsewhere in more general articles on the events.

I can see 2 to 3 people there that may have Rangers tops on. It's not that clear, but it looks like the angled Carling badge on their tops. So that's 2-3 with Rangers colours in an entire crowd. I'm not saying that a handful of Rangers fans didn't join in, I'm just saying that I don't believe that the ringleaders or the majority that charged the police were in fact Rangers fans.

Then you are either deluded or simply an apologist. Rangers fans were in it up to their neck in terms of responsibilty for the riot. Just because some of the fans were not wearing a replica shirt you have the leap in logic to assert that they were not Rangers fans.

They may not the type of fan you like and would have a drink with but they are Rangers fans nevertheless.

 

[Kevealis]

Then you are either deluded or simply an apologist. Rangers fans were in it up to their neck in terms of responsibilty for the riot. Just because some of the fans were not wearing a replica shirt you have the leap in logic to assert that they were not Rangers fans.

They may not the type of fan you like and would have a drink with but they are Rangers fans nevertheless.

Yes, rangers fans were involved and they are a shame on the club. We've been saying that all along. But almost every fan who was down there was in a rangers shirt. I met dozens of people i know down there and them, and all there pals were in rangers jerseys. Everywhere you looked, the fans were in rangers jerseys. Those who havent bought them for a few seasons still wore one. I seen people wearing strips from 95! The whole point behind it was that we wanted to create a blue sea (like one of our songs "The Blue Sea of Ibrox". The vast vast vast vast majority were in colours. Yet the majority involved inviolence werent. You must admit that seems strange.

 

[Blotto]

This has gotten to the point where it is absolutely ridiculous...

 

[GeneralBurk]

Yes, rangers fans were involved and they are a shame on the club. We've been saying that all along. But almost every fan who was down there was in a rangers shirt. I met dozens of people i know down there and them, and all there pals were in rangers jerseys. Everywhere you looked, the fans were in rangers jerseys. Those who havent bought them for a few seasons still wore one. I seen people wearing strips from 95! The whole point behind it was that we wanted to create a blue sea (like one of our songs "The Blue Sea of Ibrox". The vast vast vast vast majority were in colours. Yet the majority involved inviolence werent. You must admit that seems strange.

I was there and I was not drinking myself into oblivion unlike the vast vast vast vast majority of Rangers fans who have a very poor reputation in Manchester after the last time they played Manchester United and started trouble in a variety of bars.

You are clinging to the belief that because quite a few people were not wearing Rangers shirts in the attack on the police officer that slipped then they were not Rangers fans. Rubbish. Rangers fans in replica shirts were posing next to smashed cars, I witnessed 3 separate assaults in the space of 1 hour by fans in replica shirts that all went unreported to the media and the police. The police ran out of handcuffs when it came to arresting the fans and all day there was trouble from the Rangers fans as they ripped of the trims and booted off wing mirrors off cars both parked and moving.

The fact is had the Rangers fans not rioted then the papers would have been talking about all the offensive sectarian chanting and racist abuse spewing from these so called football fans. Scum.