Martin Jol?

[Bus-Conductor]

Good one. Wit is clearly up their with intelligence and literacy as one of your strengths.

Is there anything sadder than an illiterate hypocrite ?

 

[tRiKS]

And under whom we averaged less than a point a game for ten months. But I'm sure that being Carling Cup holders would have been a great comfort as we prepared to welcome Doncaster to the Lane.

The idea Ramos was wholey bad is as proposterous as saying he was wonderful.

To brush aside the achievement and effect of beating two top 4 teams in such style is stubborness and stupidity. Players, fans and executives of THFC clawed back a little self belief that year.

There's a distinct possibilty that cup run has had a direct effect on the players belief they can win those games and results agsint all but utd since that time, reflects very well on that theory.

YEs it ended badly, many sides have fallen off after a cup win, especially so if 4th was already beyond them and relegation not an issue so i read little into the rest of the games. the 8 games and 2 pionts run at the start of the season was worring and he was rightly sacked. Recognising that fact and still appreciateing the positives are not mutually exclusive.

Graham
Hoddle
Jol
Ramos
Harry

have all had some input into the the positive evoultion of THFC and the team we see today.

 

[SpurSince57]

The idea Ramos was wholey bad is as proposterous as saying he was wonderful.

To brush aside the achievement and effect of beating two top 4 teams in such style is stubborness and stupidity. Players, fans and executives of THFC clawed back a little self belief that year.

There's a distinct possibilty that cup run has had a direct effect on the players belief they can win those games and results agsint all but utd since that time, reflects very well on that theory.

YEs it ended badly, many sides have fallen off after a cup win, especially so if 4th was already beyond them and relegation not an issue so i read little into the rest of the games. the 8 games and 2 pionts run at the start of the season was worring and he was rightly sacked. Recognising that fact and still appreciateing the positives are not mutually exclusive.

Graham
Hoddle
Jol
Ramos
Harry

have all had some input into the the positive evoultion of THFC and the team we see today.

So who had that idea?

No, he wasn't an unmitigated disaster, just a disaster, and whilst it would indeed be absurd to say winning the CC wasn't a considerable achievement and morale boost, it covered up the fact that things were going poorly in the league and had been since January. There was no 'falling off' after the final. In retrospect, even his first nine games weren't that impressive.

And on which players' belief did the Carling final have a positive effect? Eight of the squad that day were shown the door in the summer, and Hutton replaced by Corluka. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[Roberts84]

Jol did well for us and laid the foundations but how many times did we let in a goal in the last few minutes or throw away leads. I'm glad he is not in charge anymore but thank him for what he did

 

[$hoguN]

I think Bear has a point tbh. Harry has done brillantly and as much I love big Martin as a person, and he did lay decent foundations, the former is most definitely the better manager.

How about singing for Harry and all he's done instead of pandering to the likable Martin Jol....its not a popularity contest for christ sake.

Yes exchange pleasantries and banter, show respect, but ultimately we should of been singing for Harry today...not bum rimming an ex-manager :wink:

I'm fairly sure after singing about Jol, our fans started a chant of "Harry Redknapp's blue and white army".

Anyway I wouldn't want Jol back as it would be like taking a step backwards. Yes he is a great guy but is not the same calibre of manager as Harry. On the note of if it is right sining for about a previous manager during a game, I see no problem with it provided that the fans voice a greater admiration for our current manager.

 

[$hoguN]

I do think that the people who want Jol back, are the same sort of people who want ex's back after years of being away from them. Recalling and picturing how great they were in bed and how good it was with them, until they get them back and realise they just acted like starfish in the bedroom and were not suited to them too well at all.

 

[AnotherSpursFan]

nothing wrong paying tribute to Jol

I would even go so far as saying Reknapp would applaud that nice gesture

 

[SpurSince57]

I'm fairly sure after singing about Jol, our fans started a chant of "Harry Redknapp's blue and white army".

Anyway I wouldn't want Jol back as it would be like taking a step backwards. Yes he is a great guy but is not the same calibre of manager as Harry. On the note of if it is right sining for about a previous manager during a game, I see no problem with it provided that the fans voice a greater admiration for our current manager.

Whether he is or he isn't (and theorizing as to how Harry would have done with our 05-06 team or Jol with this one has about as much point as speculating on the outcomes of Marciano v. Ali, Laver v. Federer or Nuvolari v. Schumacher) it's rare that a manager returns to his old club and does as well or better than in his first stint. (Someone will now provide half-a-dozen examples to the contrary.

 

[SpurSince57]

nothing wrong paying tribute to Jol

I would even go so far as saying Reknapp would applaud that nice gesture

I see absolutely nothing wrong with an ovation before and after a game. The singing and chanting I do have misgivings about.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

So who had that idea?

No, he wasn't an unmitigated disaster, just a disaster, and whilst it would indeed be absurd to say winning the CC wasn't a considerable achievement and morale boost, it covered up the fact that things were going poorly in the league and had been since January. There was no 'falling off' after the final. In retrospect, even his first nine games weren't that impressive.

And on which players' belief did the Carling final have a positive effect? Eight of the squad that day were shown the door in the summer, and Hutton replaced by Corluka. Don't be ridiculous.

You really are an exasperating old wind bag who continues to invent his own history.

The only players who were actually "shown the door" the following summer from that cup winning eleven were Robinson, Chimbonda and Malbranque, all replaced with superior players (Gomes, Ekotto & Modric). Berbatov and Keane were hardly "shown the door" were they, and even then it was only 5 of that team that left. Corluka was brought in because Hutton developed a long term injury.

But, Woodgate, King, Hutton, Huddelstone, Lennon, Jenas, Zokora all remained at the club (and some of that victory may well have aided their belief mentality) , some of whom helped us to reach CL qualification along with Modric, Gomes, Pav, Corluka, players who may well not have joined if we hadn't a) achieved such a high profile victory and b) qualified for european competition by doing so.

You want to talk about failure, how about Jol's, having had three years in charge, learning and coaching the same side, a side which had seen unprecedented investment since his arrival managed to start a league campaign like this:

Sunderland 1 Spurs 0
Spurs 1 Everton 3
Spurs 4 Derby 0
ManU 1 Spurs 0
Fulham 3 Spurs 3 (after being 3-1 up with 13 minutes to go)
Spurs 1 Arsenal 3
Bolton 1 Spurs 1
Spurs 4 Villa 4
Liverpool 2 Spurs 2
Newcastle 3 Spurs 1

(I have not included the euro games but a win and a draw against the mighty famagusta and us losing our home record against Gatafe hardly reflect well)

By contrast Ramos's first 11 games saw us loose just once, with ten men, having still mullered Birmingham all over the pitch. with six wins, and 4 draws. A sequence which was ended by an unlucky 1-2 defeat (we missed a pen) at the emirates.

The next sequence of results went p16 w9 d4 l3 with the defeats coming away at Villa (unlucky), Chelsea & ManU.

If Ramos was merely a disaster, then Jol's tenure ended in unmitigated disaster and he was rightly "shown the door", Levy's loyalty, in fact, keeping him in a job about four months longer than he should have been.

 

[tRiKS]

So who had that idea?

No, he wasn't an unmitigated disaster, just a disaster, and whilst it would indeed be absurd to say winning the CC wasn't a considerable achievement and morale boost, it covered up the fact that things were going poorly in the league and had been since January. There was no 'falling off' after the final. In retrospect, even his first nine games weren't that impressive.

And on which players' belief did the Carling final have a positive effect? Eight of the squad that day were shown the door in the summer, and Hutton replaced by Corluka. Don't be ridiculous.

tut.

The filtering effect of success is not solely in the ownership of the players on the pitch. Utd constantly play different 11's of varying quality with the same outcome V us. A Mentality that bridges generations.

I'm not going to drag out a Ramos debate. the long and short of my argument is that some positives can be strangled out of his reign a view I hold which is in stark contrast to some peoples jibber jabber on the subject. Nothing more nothing less.

Acquiescence accepted without prejudice

 

[SpurSince57]

You really are an exasperating old wind bag who continues to invent his own history.

The only players who were actually "shown the door" the following summer from that cup winning eleven were Robinson, Chimbonda and Malbranque, all replaced with superior players (Gomes, Ekotto & Modric). Berbatov and Keane were hardly "shown the door" were they, and even then it was only 5 of that team that left. Corluka was brought in because Hutton developed a long term injury.

But, Woodgate, King, Hutton, Huddelstone, Lennon, Jenas, Zokora all remained at the club (and some of that victory may well have aided their belief mentality) , some of whom helped us to reach CL qualification along with Modric, Gomes, Pav, Corluka, players who may well not have joined if we hadn't a) achieved such a high profile victory and b) qualified for european competition by doing so.

You want to talk about failure, how about Jol's, having had three years in charge, learning and coaching the same side, a side which had seen unprecedented investment since his arrival managed to start a league campaign like this:

Sunderland 1 Spurs 0
Spurs 1 Everton 3
Spurs 4 Derby 0
ManU 1 Spurs 0
Fulham 3 Spurs 3 (after being 3-1 up with 13 minutes to go)
Spurs 1 Arsenal 3
Bolton 1 Spurs 1
Spurs 4 Villa 4
Liverpool 2 Spurs 2
Newcastle 3 Spurs 1

(I have not included the euro games but a win and a draw against the mighty famagusta and us losing our home record against Gatafe hardly reflect well)

By contrast Ramos's first 11 games saw us loose just once, with ten men, having still mullered Birmingham all over the pitch. with six wins, and 4 draws. A sequence which was ended by an unlucky 1-2 defeat (we missed a pen) at the emirates.

The next sequence of results went p16 w9 d4 l3 with the defeats coming away at Villa (unlucky), Chelsea & ManU.

If Ramos was merely a disaster, then Jol's tenure ended in unmitigated disaster and he was rightly "shown the door", Levy's loyalty, in fact, keeping him in a job about four months longer than he should have been.

Says B-C, before proceeding at very considerable length. You've got to laugh.

Chimbonda, Robinson, Tainio, Malbranque, Keane, Berbatov, Kaboul and Cerny. I make that eight. What do you make it? (Yes, I agree, it's stretching a point to say Berbatov was 'shown the door'.)

How conveniently you forget Jol's two fifth places, and focus on a poor run at the start of a season when he and the players knew that Levy had demonstrated his 'loyalty' by negotiating with another club's manager for at least two months, something he was subsequently to lie about. Anyone who believes that would not have had an effect on morale and performances has got to be pretty damned stupid.

You decided not to include Jol's Euro games but are happy to lump Random's cup results in with his league ones, something you did in repeating the absurd claim that Harry's last 54 games were no better than Juanque's. The first nine league games saw wins against Wigan and Fulham (both in freefall) Reading (an entertaining farce we might as easily have lost), Pompey and City. The following twenty-six saw wins against Sunderland and Derby, both much harder work than they should have been, Pompey again, Spammers (who were losing 4-0 to everyone) and Reading again. That's a total of ten wins, six of them against sides that were struggling badly (and two of which were actually relegated, with Fulham escaping by the skin of their teeth). To that litany of triumph, we can add 11 draws and 14 defeats—41 points from 35 games, an average of 1.17 PPG that puts Juanque 0.01 PPG ahead of Ossie in the table of Spurs managers. 26 games from January to October got us just 21 points—an average of 0.81 PPG.

It's not me that's inventing history.

 

[RickyVilla]

Says B-C, before proceeding at very considerable length. You've got to laugh.

Chimbonda, Robinson, Tainio, Malbranque, Keane, Berbatov, Kaboul and Cerny. I make that eight. What do you make it? (Yes, I agree, it's stretching a point to say Berbatov was 'shown the door'.)

How conveniently you forget Jol's two fifth places, and focus on a poor run at the start of a season when he and the players knew that Levy had demonstrated his 'loyalty' by negotiating with another club's manager for at least two months, something he was subsequently to lie about. Anyone who believes that would not have had an effect on morale and performances has got to be pretty damned stupid.

You decided not to include Jol's Euro games but are happy to lump Random's cup results in with his league ones, something you did in repeating the absurd claim that Harry's last 54 games were no better than Juanque's. The first nine league games saw wins against Wigan and Fulham (both in freefall) Reading (an entertaining farce we might as easily have lost), Pompey and City. The following twenty-six saw wins against Sunderland and Derby, both much harder work than they should have been, Pompey again, Spammers (who were losing 4-0 to everyone) and Reading again. That's a total of ten wins, six of them against sides that were struggling badly (and two of which were actually relegated, with Fulham escaping by the skin of their teeth). To that litany of triumph, we can add 11 draws and 14 defeats—41 points from 35 games, an average of 1.17 PPG that puts Juanque 0.01 PPG ahead of Ossie in the table of Spurs managers. 26 games from January to October got us just 21 points—an average of 0.81 PPG.

It's not me that's inventing history.

Good post sir! :up:

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Is there anything sadder than an illiterate hypocrite ?

No their isn't.....

You really are an exasperating old wind bag who continues to invent his own history.

The only players who were actually "shown the door" the following summer from that cup winning eleven were Robinson, Chimbonda and Malbranque, all replaced with superior players (Gomes, Ekotto & Modric). Berbatov and Keane were hardly "shown the door" were they, and even then it was only 5 of that team that left. Corluka was brought in because Hutton developed a long term injury.

But, Woodgate, King, Hutton, Huddelstone, Lennon, Jenas, Zokora all remained at the club (and some of that victory may well have aided their belief mentality) , some of whom helped us to reach CL qualification along with Modric, Gomes, Pav, Corluka, players who may well not have joined if we hadn't a) achieved such a high profile victory and b) qualified for european competition by doing so.

You want to talk about failure, how about Jol's, having had three years in charge, learning and coaching the same side, a side which had seen unprecedented investment since his arrival managed to start a league campaign like this:

Sunderland 1 Spurs 0
Spurs 1 Everton 3
Spurs 4 Derby 0
ManU 1 Spurs 0
Fulham 3 Spurs 3 (after being 3-1 up with 13 minutes to go)
Spurs 1 Arsenal 3
Bolton 1 Spurs 1
Spurs 4 Villa 4
Liverpool 2 Spurs 2
Newcastle 3 Spurs 1

(I have not included the euro games but a win and a draw against the mighty famagusta and us losing our home record against Gatafe hardly reflect well)

By contrast Ramos's first 11 games saw us loose just once, with ten men, having still mullered Birmingham all over the pitch. with six wins, and 4 draws. A sequence which was ended by an unlucky 1-2 defeat (we missed a pen) at the emirates.

The next sequence of results went p16 w9 d4 l3 with the defeats coming away at Villa (unlucky), Chelsea & ManU.

If Ramos was merely a disaster, then Jol's tenure ended in unmitigated disaster and he was rightly "shown the door", Levy's loyalty, in fact, keeping him in a job about four months longer than he should have been.

Say what.....

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Coyboy, BC, SS57 and the Bear! This has the makings of an epic battle full of bloodshed and rape!

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I didn't want to get involved. But the 'loose' thing is too silly to ignore :lol:

 

[dav3j]

....Awwwwful lot of sand in peoples' vaginas today.

 

[RickyVilla]

....Awwwwful lot of sand in peoples' vaginas today.

Maybe they should swap the sand for Stella?

 

[Spurs_Bear]

The idea Ramos was wholey bad is as proposterous as saying he was wonderful.

To brush aside the achievement and effect of beating two top 4 teams in such style is stubborness and stupidity. Players, fans and executives of THFC clawed back a little self belief that year.

There's a distinct possibilty that cup run has had a direct effect on the players belief they can win those games and results agsint all but utd since that time, reflects very well on that theory.

YEs it ended badly, many sides have fallen off after a cup win, especially so if 4th was already beyond them and relegation not an issue so i read little into the rest of the games. the 8 games and 2 pionts run at the start of the season was worring and he was rightly sacked. Recognising that fact and still appreciateing the positives are not mutually exclusive.

Graham
Hoddle
Jol
Ramos
Harry

have all had some input into the the positive evoultion of THFC and the team we see today.

That's the only bit I take issue with. In the 5-1 beating of Arsenal, we actually surrendered more possession, let them have more shots, both on and off target, as well as more corners etc etc amen. Looking back and trying to find the positives of the Ramos era, we call this 'winning with style and outplaying Arsenal', nowadays because it's good old 'Arry, the same people that lauded Ramos for masterminding that day, give 'Arry shit if we do the same now, ie winning but not 'dominating'. And that's with us beating their first team now, not what was then effectively nearly a second team. I say nearly, because in the second leg they did play a stronger team but still left the likes of Fabregas and Adebayor on the bench.

 

[yido_number1]

This thread has become quite amusing... I think it would be interesting to compare Jol to his predecessors of Pleat, Hoddle and Graham (Wouldn't include Santini) as they were what he was trying to build on...

Harry has definitely taken us on miles since Jol and I think any one who denies that needs examining... I will personally always remember Jol fondly as one of my favourite era's at Spurs...